When you say "regiment" you mean "4-5 battalions of the same type together" right? Or just 3 battalions?
Can it be done?: Historical US production
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When you say "regiment" you mean "4-5 battalions of the same type together" right? Or just 3 battalions?
EDIT: Oops sorry replied to the worng post. Meant the UK fleet build.
From what I've found out so far the UK built the following naval vesels from 1936 through end of 1944.
5 King George BB's,
17 CL's (2 Arethusa class, 3 Fiji, 2 Swiftshire, 5 Shouthhampton. 3 Glouchester, 2 Edinburgh)
11 CLAA's of the Dido class
7 CV's total (1 Ark royal, 3 Illustrious 1 Indomitable, 2 Implacable)
48 S class medium subs
44 T class large subs.
As for DD's I'm not sure as of yet. But I'll start on the above and add in some DD's.
From what I've found out so far the UK built the following naval vesels from 1936 through end of 1944.
5 King George BB's,
17 CL's (2 Arethusa class, 3 Fiji, 2 Swiftshire, 5 Shouthhampton. 3 Glouchester, 2 Edinburgh)
11 CLAA's of the Dido class
7 CV's total (1 Ark royal, 3 Illustrious 1 Indomitable, 2 Implacable)
48 S class medium subs
44 T class large subs.
As for DD's I'm not sure as of yet. But I'll start on the above and add in some DD's.
Thank you. That is what I get for saying things based on fuzzy memories from war games published 40 years ago.
For those i bet the original 20 dockyards +3 from NF is more than enough. And on top of that you can add some tons of transports (even if UK hardly need more than 3-4 factorys to replenish eventual losses).
In addition to the ships in my previous post I calculated there were 137 DD's built from 1936 through 1944. There were 8 per class (H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, Z) with I class having 9 ships.
So that is my task. I honestly don't see a problem here.
Here you go:
- 5 and a bit BBs (5 KGV, and Vanguard laid down in October 1941 and launched in 1944, although not finished in until 1946)
- 7 and a half CVs (the seven you mention, plus half for the Eagles under construction - two laid down in late 42/early 43, but not finished until after the war)
- 42 CLs (2 Arethusa, 5 Southampton, 3 Gloucester, 2 Edinburgh, 11 Dido, 11 Fiji, 5 Bellona, 2 Swiftsure, and 1 to represent the partially-complete Tigers)
- 206 DDs (24 G/H/I, 3 G/H/I leaders, 20 Tribal, 6 Ex-Brazilian, 24 J/K/N, 15 L/M, 16 O/P, 2 ex-Turkish, 16 Q/R, 40 S/T/U/V/W, 16 Z/Ca, 10 Battle (8 completed by end '45, 8 completed the next year but all under construction before war's end), 14 Ch/Co/Cr (12 completed by end '45, but like Battle a bunch more partially constructed at this point)).
- 197 SS (4 Shark, 5 Grampus, 15 Triton, 3 U Class (prewar), 46 U Class (WEP), 16 T Class (WEP), 4 Ex-Turkish, 33 S-Class (WEP), 20 T-Class (41/42 program), 17 S-Class (42/43 program), 22 U-Class (41/42 program), 12 A Class)
Using the IC costs from the HoI4 Wiki (which I'm pretty sure are correct) that gives you total NIC required of 622,400. From some back-of-the-envelope calculations, that's 34.1 naval factories at full (1943, +100% IIRC - but I'm a bit hazy here) efficiency for 10 years straight, but given you're unlikely to hit full efficiency until 1942 at the earliest, and you start with 19, not 34 factories, 10 years (the time you need to complete it all by start 1946) is a pretty tough ask. As always, very happy to be proved wrong, but I wouldn't mind evidence, rather than assertions
.To make it fair, if you use my historical ship OOBs mod, it'll give you the starting production, so you've got the partially completed ships at the start of the game (as individual ships, so partial completion is done on a per-ship basis, the vanilla system doesn't do this very well). I did my tests with that starting construction in place, and if we're trying to replicate historical results, it seems appropriate.
I hadn't seen this thread until now. I'm following it with interest.
Like some others here, I think attrition and combat losses too low to result in consumption of historic amounts of gear. I'm not sure that moving towards that would result in a better game, but I'd be curious to find out if someone ever mods it in.
Like some others here, I think attrition and combat losses too low to result in consumption of historic amounts of gear. I'm not sure that moving towards that would result in a better game, but I'd be curious to find out if someone ever mods it in.
Here you go:
- 5 and a bit BBs (5 KGV, and Vanguard laid down in October 1941 and launched in 1944, although not finished in until 1946)
- 7 and a half CVs (the seven you mention, plus half for the Eagles under construction - two laid down in late 42/early 43, but not finished until after the war)
- 42 CLs (2 Arethusa, 5 Southampton, 3 Gloucester, 2 Edinburgh, 11 Dido, 11 Fiji, 5 Bellona, 2 Swiftsure, and 1 to represent the partially-complete Tigers)
- 206 DDs (24 G/H/I, 3 G/H/I leaders, 20 Tribal, 6 Ex-Brazilian, 24 J/K/N, 15 L/M, 16 O/P, 2 ex-Turkish, 16 Q/R, 40 S/T/U/V/W, 16 Z/Ca, 10 Battle (8 completed by end '45, 8 completed the next year but all under construction before war's end), 14 Ch/Co/Cr (12 completed by end '45, but like Battle a bunch more partially constructed at this point)).
- 197 SS (4 Shark, 5 Grampus, 15 Triton, 3 U Class (prewar), 46 U Class (WEP), 16 T Class (WEP), 4 Ex-Turkish, 33 S-Class (WEP), 20 T-Class (41/42 program), 17 S-Class (42/43 program), 22 U-Class (41/42 program), 12 A Class)
Using the IC costs from the HoI4 Wiki (which I'm pretty sure are correct) that gives you total NIC required of 622,400. From some back-of-the-envelope calculations, that's 34.1 naval factories at full (1943, +100% IIRC - but I'm a bit hazy here) efficiency for 10 years straight, but given you're unlikely to hit full efficiency until 1942 at the earliest, and you start with 19, not 34 factories, 10 years (the time you need to complete it all by start 1946) is a pretty tough ask. As always, very happy to be proved wrong, but I wouldn't mind evidence, rather than assertions
To make it fair, if you use my historical ship OOBs mod, it'll give you the starting production, so you've got the partially completed ships at the start of the game (as individual ships, so partial completion is done on a per-ship basis, the vanilla system doesn't do this very well). I did my tests with that starting construction in place, and if we're trying to replicate historical results, it seems appropriate.
I have to add in 12 more CL's, 69 DD's and 100 more subs. BTW many of those subs are not represented in the game as they are mine-layers and coastal types. I also like how you add in ships and subs that were finished in 1946. LOL. I was going for all ships completed by end of 1944 and I would complete all those ships. But no problem i'll show that even your list is easy to do!
You can see that it's September 1937 and I'm well on my way. I had 137 DD's, 48 S class subs, 11 Amphion Class CL's, 17 Shouthhampton class CL's queued up. In other words I already built 19 DD's, 6 CL's, 26 subs and a CV. I'm researching a newer CV and will switch over when researched. I have 49 NIC from some builds and NF's but stopped building NIC and switched to MIC after world tension went up and I could change a law. So this isn't skewered just to a navy but doing things smarlty. My CV's and BB's will be done in 42 and 43. The current run on DD's will finish in 43. And the current CL's will finish in 42 or early 43.
In other words this is a piece of cake and not a problem to build all of it. I can easily build another 10 NIC and get all of this done before 1944.
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Hate to add more difficulty to the task (in regards to total production), but what about munitions? Check this article out, 12.5 million .45 catridges, PER DAY, from this munitions plant. Of course, several dozens of types of munitions used in everything from Pistols to Strategic Bombers and Battleships.
http://imperialclub.com/Yr/1945/WPC-WW2/Cover-reg.jpg
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/...ld-war-ii-production-from-cars-to-cartridges/
I love this quote "But we have been hearing more and more about billions in recent years. I still can’t imagine what a billion is like, so I’d like to make billions of something and find out."
http://imperialclub.com/Yr/1945/WPC-WW2/Cover-reg.jpg
http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/...ld-war-ii-production-from-cars-to-cartridges/
I love this quote "But we have been hearing more and more about billions in recent years. I still can’t imagine what a billion is like, so I’d like to make billions of something and find out."
@Axe99 here are screen shots taken on August 1st 1939. I'm not going to go beyond this as it proves that it can be done.
The first screenshot shows you all the ships and subs I've built since 1936. That is just 3 years and 7 months. I have 5 years and 5 months to just get to the end of 1944. So I would more than double this output.
It shows I'm way ahead in CV's and BB's. CL's and DD's need more but I'll just switch over those NIC producing the capital ships. Here are the current builds screenshot.
The CV's are done in 2 years or mid 1941. WAY ahead of schedule. I have 3 BB's to make and they will be done also in 1941 as one of them is finished in September 1939. So agan WAY ahead of schedule. I have 10 CL's building and will need 12 more to hit your 1946 target. All CL's including the other 12 will be done sometime in 1943. Again WAY ahead of schedule. For subs I have 19 left of the current T class run. These will be done in around 8 more months (1940). I will then have to build 105 more. Even if I don't add any more NIC the scheduled competition date would be 3 years 8 months or sometime in 1944. Again ahead of your 1946 targets. Last but not least are the DD's. The current run would finish right at the end of 1942. But I still need 69 more for your target. I will easily have 30 NIC doing it and at 1.95/month per 15 NIC that means the 69 will take just under 18 months. That places the total completion date no later than July 1944.
I told you this was easy to do. And I did not skimp on other military stuff. All CV's have full planes, I have 15 fighters and increasing this. I have 10 TAC MIC. I have a stockpile of 70K INF equipment and producing more. I am producing medium tanks with 5 MIC and adding more as I just finished the research. I have increase radar all along the coast and on many islands. I even added land forts in Singapore.
The first screenshot shows you all the ships and subs I've built since 1936. That is just 3 years and 7 months. I have 5 years and 5 months to just get to the end of 1944. So I would more than double this output.
It shows I'm way ahead in CV's and BB's. CL's and DD's need more but I'll just switch over those NIC producing the capital ships. Here are the current builds screenshot.
The CV's are done in 2 years or mid 1941. WAY ahead of schedule. I have 3 BB's to make and they will be done also in 1941 as one of them is finished in September 1939. So agan WAY ahead of schedule. I have 10 CL's building and will need 12 more to hit your 1946 target. All CL's including the other 12 will be done sometime in 1943. Again WAY ahead of schedule. For subs I have 19 left of the current T class run. These will be done in around 8 more months (1940). I will then have to build 105 more. Even if I don't add any more NIC the scheduled competition date would be 3 years 8 months or sometime in 1944. Again ahead of your 1946 targets. Last but not least are the DD's. The current run would finish right at the end of 1942. But I still need 69 more for your target. I will easily have 30 NIC doing it and at 1.95/month per 15 NIC that means the 69 will take just under 18 months. That places the total completion date no later than July 1944.
I told you this was easy to do. And I did not skimp on other military stuff. All CV's have full planes, I have 15 fighters and increasing this. I have 10 TAC MIC. I have a stockpile of 70K INF equipment and producing more. I am producing medium tanks with 5 MIC and adding more as I just finished the research. I have increase radar all along the coast and on many islands. I even added land forts in Singapore.
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Now that's what I want to see
.On the subs, coastal subs are in the game (Germany starts off with its type IIs, and IIRC the USSR even starts off with some 300ton tiddlers in its OOB in vanilla), and even if they weren't, the U Class were pretty large for coastal subs - the normal displacement of a U class WEP sub is about the same as a German Type VII A - but you are right, in my tiredness I threw all the subs in there, so you can knock off the 5 Grampus class
.As for the rest, don't forget I also said "there's no way known you could do it with 35-40 IC", and you've already cracked the 40 IC upper bound of one of your assertions by 1937
.That said, you may well be able to do it with expanded IC, but just see how you go, and it'd be a better test if you were building like-for-like - ie, the Ark Royal should be a CV II, not CV III, and the S Class wasn't an SS I (but you could use SS I to approximate the smaller size of the U Class. Outside of the subs and the Amphion/Leander/Arethusa Class CLs, Britain wasn't building any 1922 model vessels in 1937 (or 1936). Don't forget that from the J/K/N, your DDs should be type III as well, and your CLs should switch to type III at the Gloucester class (but don't need to switch to type IV).
As for the ships added that were completed in 1946, the historic build during those times includes ships laid down for completion later. That's the thing with ships, they're not a spit-the-out-in-a-couple-of-months proposition (IRL, obviously not in HoI4). I did leave out the two partially-completed Lions, and went very 'gently' with the partially-completed ships included, but a historic UK build to end '45 (I'm not sure why you're only going to end '44, but no harm in that either) should include the ship-building work done to end '45, not just the finished ships, imo. You've literally got 4 more DDs and maybe a couple more Amphions
As an aside - I'd bet good money that you're keen on a "hold down shift to add 10 ships to the queue" functionality in the ship building? After I'd done my tests, I'd have funded it myself!
Edit: Ninja'd by your second post. Looks like you'll probably get there, even if a lot of those ships aren't quite up to their tech model, nice work and I'm happy to concede that, at least in vanilla, it can be done, if you don't mind stacking the RN with an ahistorically large selection of 1922 class ships
(but, by the look of it, it could be done in vanilla with historic types, or at least close to - I did my tests in my mod, and it may be other changes make it harder to hit the historic build, or going hard on out-of-date ships makes it easier, one of the two).
As for the rest, don't forget I also said "there's no way known you could do it with 35-40 IC", and you've already cracked the 40 IC upper bound of one of your assertions by 1937
That said, you may well be able to do it with expanded IC, but just see how you go, and it'd be a better test if you were building like-for-like - ie, the Ark Royal should be a CV II, not CV III, and the S Class wasn't an SS I (but you could use SS I to approximate the smaller size of the U Class. Outside of the subs and the Amphion/Leander/Arethusa Class CLs, Britain wasn't building any 1922 model vessels in 1937 (or 1936). Don't forget that from the J/K/N, your DDs should be type III as well, and your CLs should switch to type III at the Gloucester class (but don't need to switch to type IV).
As for the ships added that were completed in 1946, the historic build during those times includes ships laid down for completion later. That's the thing with ships, they're not a spit-the-out-in-a-couple-of-months proposition (IRL, obviously not in HoI4). I did leave out the two partially-completed Lions, and went very 'gently' with the partially-completed ships included, but a historic UK build to end '45 (I'm not sure why you're only going to end '44, but no harm in that either) should include the ship-building work done to end '45, not just the finished ships, imo. You've literally got 4 more DDs and maybe a couple more Amphions
As an aside - I'd bet good money that you're keen on a "hold down shift to add 10 ships to the queue" functionality in the ship building? After I'd done my tests, I'd have funded it myself!
Edit: Ninja'd by your second post. Looks like you'll probably get there, even if a lot of those ships aren't quite up to their tech model, nice work and I'm happy to concede that, at least in vanilla, it can be done, if you don't mind stacking the RN with an ahistorically large selection of 1922 class ships
I tried to play real so I didn't want to tech rush the various ships and I didn't want to just research ship types. Of course if I had to produce a large amount of 1944 tech ships by the end of that year it will be impossible as the techs wouldn't finish till half the year was gone. So from that standpoint its not a fair thing to ask for.
And yes I exceeded the 40 NIC but why shouldn't I? What am I going to build, useless AA? I built radar and some land forts and built lots of MIC and building even more. In 1936 till you can get partial mobilization the only thing you should build is NIC. It doesn't have any penalty like MIC and CIC does. This is the same thing the US should be doing. NIC till the penalty goes away then build the other stuff.
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I don't disagree that if you want to rush NIC to build obsolete ships then you should be able to get absolute numbers of ships equal to those build during the war, and you're quite right in saying it can be done, but I'd argue that achieving that is a very different thing from achieving the historic naval build. There's a lot more to a ship than "it's a DD" or "it's a CV". I'm not really sure what rushing a whole bunch of obsolete ships proves, but it doesn't prove that the historic naval build can be achieved. That said, if you are just counting net numbers of ships, without paying any attention to quality, size or tech, then I agree, it should be easy
.As an aside, in my tests I didn't min-max things, but played in a historically plausible fashion as well (the UK didn't just rush NIC prior to partial mobilisation - if anything, it neglected the navy for the air force and army in terms of development during the early 1930s) - I suspect if you went the min-max route for naval production in terms frontloading all your NIC because there are holes in the game's construction mechanics, you should be able to produce the historic builds a lot more easily (and that's building the actual historic builds in terms of ship types).
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Very nice work overall. Just as a point of curiosity, how many strat bombers did you produce in this test? I ask mainly in the context of another thread that is focusing on those.
Less NIC that I thought you would need. When naval warfare is rebalanced in the next patch, it will be time to take Britain for a spin and actually put some effort into building a proper navy.
I was building TAC bombers instead of STRAT. I had 10 MIC on TAC's. I also had 15 MIC on fighters and was pushing that to 20.
I don't disagree that if you want to rush NIC to build obsolete ships then you should be able to get absolute numbers of ships equal to those build during the war, and you're quite right in saying it can be done, but I'd argue that achieving that is a very different thing from achieving the historic naval build. There's a lot more to a ship than "it's a DD" or "it's a CV". I'm not really sure what rushing a whole bunch of obsolete ships proves, but it doesn't prove that the historic naval build can be achieved. That said, if you are just counting net numbers of ships, without paying any attention to quality, size or tech, then I agree, it should be easy
As an aside, in my tests I didn't min-max things, but played in a historically plausible fashion as well (the UK didn't just rush NIC prior to partial mobilisation - if anything, it neglected the navy for the air force and army in terms of development during the early 1930s) - I suspect if you went the min-max route for naval production in terms frontloading all your NIC because there are holes in the game's construction mechanics, you should be able to produce the historic builds a lot more easily (and that's building the actual historic builds in terms of ship types).
Really the historic build would not be a problem EXCEPT for getting the techs done right. And unfortunately if I'm playing UK I find other 1940 techs way more important than the ship techs so those have to wait.
But if I wanted to focus all my techs slots on just ships I can easily get you the exact number of year ships. Remember I will have about a 20-30% LARGER navy than historical by the end of 1945 with the above.
The key is efficiency and understanding how the ship production process actually works. First concentrate and get to the number of NIC you want for that ship type. Then make sure you always get the economic techs done ASAP for the year. Don't forget that UK has a NF that allows a 50% reduction in an economic tech. This works great for getting a 1939 tech done in 1938.
Many players make the mistake of building CIC/MIC in the early years when there is a 30% penalty due to the economic laws. NIC neither benefits nor is punished by economic laws. So get you NIC done forst and as WT goes up you can spend PP to change the economic laws to a mobilization that then gives MIC a 10% boost. That is when you switch over. And of course UK has little man power so ships and planes are my primary focus. I try not to even stockpile early INF equipment as I really want my divisions to have 1939 INF stuff.
But as I said it is no problem building even a 100% historic navy provided you do the tech research on time and forgo other more important research stuff. And in the end does 3 1936 tech DD's defeat a single 1940 tech DD? I think so.
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I played a lot of time USA, I heavily focus on military industry and naval dockyard, and no : you can't reach historical production.
In 1945, I was around 2/3 or 3/4 of historical US production, except maybe on naval. But never I have as many tanks or planes.
In 1945, I was around 2/3 or 3/4 of historical US production, except maybe on naval. But never I have as many tanks or planes.
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