Can it be done?: Historical US production

[Dan1109]

It is not only America that falls short. I have never come close to 300 German infantry divisions to launch Barbarossa, let alone all the other units. Usually when I launch the invasion it feels like I have only half the army that I am supposed to have. This is in spite of not over investing in either the navy or the air force.

If that were my objective, I know I could reach it - you will however have most still using 1936 INF Equipment (which is a bit historic that most still used the 98k). My problem with 300 divisions is SUPPLY. I can barely use 150 INF divisions, plus say 30 divisions of mobile troops (50/50 tank/motor). Next time I'll have to beef up infra in the east, and prioritize expanding infra as I move in...

 

[Secret Master]

I could run another test, but instead of focusing on equipment numbers, I can focus on getting appropriate divisions into the field and Lend-Leasing an appropriate amount of equipment based on division eqivalents.

I've got some old data from my HOI3 tests that could be used, but I'd need to know what would count as valid infantry divisions for a test of this kind.

EDIT: And armor divisions, obviously.

 

[ApocalypseMao]

I could run another test, but instead of focusing on equipment numbers, I can focus on getting appropriate divisions into the field and Lend-Leasing an appropriate amount of equipment based on division eqivalents.

I've got some old data from my HOI3 tests that could be used, but I'd need to know what would count as valid infantry divisions for a test of this kind.

EDIT: And armor divisions, obviously.

I'm not sure you can create one "valid" division template for LL. You're shipping the raw equipment to multiple countries who don't use historical templates... Perhaps you can run two tests, no LL vs LL, and see how many more divisions the AI builds?

 

[Secret Master]

I'm not sure you can create one "valid" division template for LL. You're shipping the raw equipment to multiple countries who don't use historical templates... Perhaps you can run two tests, no LL vs LL, and see how many more divisions the AI builds?

I could do that, but since there is no way to know what losses the AI is taking...

To make a fair domestic test, I could just set a Lend-Lease ratio on all MIC. Something like "We know that LL accounted for X% of US industry output during the war, so in order to test US production, the US will just LL X% of all MIC and see if it can build enough divisions, ships, and planes at home."

 

[ApocalypseMao]

I could do that, but since there is no way to know what losses the AI is taking...

To make a fair domestic test, I could just set a Lend-Lease ratio on all MIC. Something like "We know that LL accounted for X% of US industry output during the war, so in order to test US production, the US will just LL X% of all MIC and see if it can build enough divisions, ships, and planes at home."

That would work. X% around 17% would match the financial expenditures.

 

[Secret Master]

Alright, after some thinking, I have a new plan.

I am going to try to reach historical US naval production (in terms of ships) and try to reach the 1945 US army while sending 17% of all US MIC production as Lend-Lease. This might be a fairer test of the production system of the game.

But while I've looked at how many people the US mobilized for the war by 1945, I want to instead establish how many divisions of what types the US should have in play by August of 1945. Manpower numbers aren't helpful, as the US had a far higher percentage of support personnel.

I've looked at some of @Cardus work, but I was wondering how to translate that into two to three division templates that I can use for production purposes.

I know that the US had plenty of ad hoc formations, but I want something a bit more standardized for testing purposes.

 

[Mad King James]

One of the big things is that the USA has 1000 divisions because instead of what they did historically (lend-lease to the Soviets, Britain, France, etc) and maybe build half as many divisions of their own, the USA does no lend lease at all and builds a ton of everything for their own armies.

The AI never lend-leases as far as I've seen

 

[ApocalypseMao]

US army totaled 91 Divisions and the Marines had 6.

68 Infantry
16 Armored
6 Marine
5 Airborne
2 Cavalry
1 Mountain

One infantry division was disbanded after its loss in the Philippines.
One cavalry division was disbanded to provide service troops. The other fought as infantry. So:

68 or 69 Infantry
16 Armored
6 Marine
5 Airborne
1 Mountain

Armored divisions had 2 tank regiments, 1 armored infantry, and 1 artillery. The rest had 3 infantry/specialist infantry regiments and 1 artillery regiment. The 1st cavalry technically had 4 dismounted cavalry regiments, but each one only had 2 battalions, leaving the division with only 8 rifle battalions.

Plus 63 or so tank destroyer battalions and the corps artillery battalions.

Edit: It might be easier to model the independent units by attaching a TD battalion to every regular infantry division and buffing the divisional artillery with an additional battalion or two

 

[Secret Master]

One of the big things is that the USA has 1000 divisions because instead of what they did historically (lend-lease to the Soviets, Britain, France, etc) and maybe build half as many divisions of their own, the USA does no lend lease at all and builds a ton of everything for their own armies.

The AI never lend-leases as far as I've seen

I've seen the AI Lend-Lease... once.

But that's why I want to run the test with a set percentage to Lend-Lease.

 

[jju_57]

Been there and done this already. No country can reproduce all of their WW2 historic equipment by the end of 1944. The main reason is planes. You simply can't make the 50K+ fighters that Germany had for example. But even tanks won't ever reach historic proportions.

But every country can reach their historic naval production if they build some additional NIC.

 

[Secret Master]

Been there and done this already. No country can reproduce all of their WW2 historic equipment by the end of 1944. The main reason is planes.

Well, I know that already. There's not enough aluminum or IC on the entire planet to build the USA's aircraft, never mind all combatants.

But I want to see if it is possible to hit army and navy at the same time (tanks and all) with 17% of production going to Lend-Lease and see where that puts me in terms of leftover IC.

 

[Axe99]

Good luck Secret Master, looking forward to reading your results .

Been there and done this already. No country can reproduce all of their WW2 historic equipment by the end of 1944. The main reason is planes. You simply can't make the 50K+ fighters that Germany had for example. But even tanks won't ever reach historic proportions.

But every country can reach their historic naval production if they build some additional NIC.

Have you managed historic naval production with the UK by end 1944 (including ships laid down and under construction at that time)? I had a crack and it wasn't possible to get anywhere close. Even with the US, I was lagging actual naval production by a couple of years once it goes nuts in 39/40. Very easy to do with any of the Axis majors, and France is easy to do if she survives (but very, very difficult to match her production (including still under construction) by August 1940 - I'd expect impossible, but wasn't being as rigorous with my testing when I did France).

 

[Antediluvian Monster]

Armored divisions had 2 tank regiments, 1 armored infantry, and 1 artillery.

Only two of the armored divisions retained this so called "heavy" organization.

------

This link might help with the seperate cavalry, artillery, tank and TD units, which need to be accounted for whole picture. It also lists some, but not all of the sub-divisional independent infantry units:

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/default.aspx

Niehorster's site is good place for general TO&E particulars, like how many tanks in tank battalion and such:

http://niehorster.org/013_usa/44_org/_44-06_organ-list.html

 

[jju_57]

Have you managed historic naval production with the UK by end 1944 (including ships laid down and under construction at that time)? I had a crack and it wasn't possible to get anywhere close. Even with the US, I was lagging actual naval production by a couple of years once it goes nuts in 39/40. Very easy to do with any of the Axis majors, and France is easy to do if she survives (but very, very difficult to match her production (including still under construction) by August 1940 - I'd expect impossible, but wasn't being as rigorous with my testing when I did France).

Yes it was easy for all major naval countries to get historical naval builds (Japan, US, UK, Germany and even Italy). You can't if you don't add some NIC. Some NIC is available via NF's but building NIC is cheap and easy. The easiest two are US and Japan where I can get 15+ CV's by 1941 war.

Now the real issue is tech level ships by historic date. This is a different animal as often the techs show a target ship as 1942 tech and in RL they built 1-4 of them by 1942. That is a research issue and not a production issue. And always remember that industry efficiency is your friend.

 

[Axe99]

Yes it was easy for all major naval countries to get historical naval builds (Japan, US, UK, Germany and even Italy). You can't if you don't add some NIC. Some NIC is available via NF's but building NIC is cheap and easy. The easiest two are US and Japan where I can get 15+ CV's by 1941 war.

Now the real issue is tech level ships by historic date. This is a different animal as often the techs show a target ship as 1942 tech and in RL they built 1-4 of them by 1942. That is a research issue and not a production issue. And always remember that industry efficiency is your friend.

Aye, I did the NFs, but almost entirely CIC and NIC (CIC because with the extra factories, you need some CIC to trade for whatever you need). Did you make sure you built all the ships (so all DDs, SS, CVs, CLs, CAs and BBs (or BCs for FRA/GER)). It's definitely easy to get one or two of the classes down, but to historically get all the ships built on time by the right date is tough - for example, in 1937 historically, ENG lays down five BBs and four CVs, as well as 6 CLs, 15 DDs and 9 SS. That's 39 NIC (more than double ENG's starting NIC) if you only allocate one NIC to each ship, have finished off the "in progress" and 1936 ships (of which there were quite a few - I can get the numbers out on those as well), and if you do that there's no way known you'll have any of the ships out on time, and the 1938 build program has a mess of new ships to fit into the mix.

 

[Dan1109]

GL - 24 fleet carriers and 130 CVL/Es in a 4 year time frame, granted US CVE/Ls had less displacement and were constructed nearly twice as fast as CLs of the same period. And the Liberty ships, holy moly. I'd guess you would maybe get 1/3 of what they did with 60NiC.

 

[jju_57]

Aye, I did the NFs, but almost entirely CIC and NIC (CIC because with the extra factories, you need some CIC to trade for whatever you need). Did you make sure you built all the ships (so all DDs, SS, CVs, CLs, CAs and BBs (or BCs for FRA/GER)). It's definitely easy to get one or two of the classes down, but to historically get all the ships built on time by the right date is tough - for example, in 1937 historically, ENG lays down five BBs and four CVs, as well as 6 CLs, 15 DDs and 9 SS. That's 39 NIC (more than double ENG's starting NIC) if you only allocate one NIC to each ship, have finished off the "in progress" and 1936 ships (of which there were quite a few - I can get the numbers out on those as well), and if you do that there's no way known you'll have any of the ships out on time, and the 1938 build program has a mess of new ships to fit into the mix.

A BB I n real life takes 4 years or so to complete after being "laid down". While you can't start all the ships on time you can get them all done before 1944. I generally end up with 35-40 NIC total if going for a historic navy. But let's face it you don't need a historic navy to defeat Italy and Germany. And if you blob your navy you can defeat Japan without US help.

 

[Axe99]

A BB I n real life takes 4 years or so to complete after being "laid down". While you can't start all the ships on time you can get them all done before 1944. I generally end up with 35-40 NIC total if going for a historic navy. But let's face it you don't need a historic navy to defeat Italy and Germany. And if you blob your navy you can defeat Japan without US help.

As far as I can see it, there is no way known you can get ENGs historic naval production (and I'm just counting HoI4 ships, so DEs, CVLs, CVEs, sloops, corvettes, landing ships, MTBs and anything else I've forgotten are off the table) with 35-40 IC before 1944 - I built up to over 80 IC, and wasn't close by 1945, and I was carefully taking account of every ship, and didn't build any surplus anything (and build a good deal less merchant marine than was historic, because convoy raiding isn't near as lethal as it should be, particularly if the AI is doing it). If you'd like me to get a list of ships that need to be built to achieve it, I'm happy to provide, but you won't hit it with 35-40 NIC unless you're playing a mod that does some pretty crazy things to shipbuilding, or hitting the console cheats. I'm not trying to be harsh here, I'm sure you thought you came close to ENG's historic naval production, but when you crunch the numbers on ships actually built, that's just not enough NIC.

For example, remember that you need 39 NIC to have one factory on each ship laid down in 1937 alone, and one NIC on a CV or BB won't get it done in four years - more like 10-15. Your CLs will be falling behind as well (and ENG built more CLs in per ship terms than USA during this period, and one NIC won't get you a CL in the 2-3 years they take to build - nowhere near), and once you get to 1938/39, ENG starts going pretty crazy laying down destroyers and builds quite a few submarines as well.

I do agree that if you do this, you're well and truly overdoing it (particularly with vanilla naval settings, but even with some nips and tucks that makes it a little harder to wail on the AI), but the question was one of whether the production could be achieved, not whether achieving that production was sensible in the current in-game context.

Happy to be proven wrong here of course , but I wouldn't mind seeing some screenshots of actually built navies rather than just assertions.

 

[jju_57]

Ok give me a list of all ships delivered from 1936 -1944 (end) from the UK that are not already in the game. This way I'll be sure to make what you're looking for and there won't be any confusion. I'll redo it and post a screenshot or two.

 

[amalric de g.]

It is not only America that falls short. I have never come close to 300 German infantry divisions to launch Barbarossa, let alone all the other units. Usually when I launch the invasion it feels like I have only half the army that I am supposed to have. This is in spite of not over investing in either the navy or the air force.

Germany didn´t had 300 Infantry-Divisions in 1941. The Wehrmacht had a total of 180 Divisions in the Field and 25 Shadow-Divisions (Training and security).
The SOV was attacked with 78 Infantry-Divisions plus the Tank, SS and mot. Divisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_for_Operation_Barbarossa
The other Divisions occupied the conquered territory.

In Hoi IV you can easily build 20 Tank, 20 mot., 10 Paras, 20 Mountaineers and 110 Infantry-Divisions until 1941.

The total number of Infantry-Divisions (Mountain, Inf, Security, Luftwaffe and Light) was 406 during the war, this number includes the destroyed and rebuild, or due to losses, disbanded and merged Divisions (renamed in the process). A big number of the Divs. only existed on paper (Staff was formed), or some Regiments. Not included are the Paratrooper Divisions and mot. Divs.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Infanteriedivisionen/Gliederung.htm