Can it be done?: Historical US production

[Dalwin]

you'd be correct, at least not without a great deal of conquest. To hit historical production levels Michigan alone would have to be able to out produce Germany.

Are you implying that Michigan (home of most of our auto-industry) did not in fact out produce Germany by themselves? At first I decided to post this in a completely facetious manner, as a harmless joke. Then I started to wonder if at least as far as vehicles go (not air craft) whether it might not be literally true.

 

[Had a dad]

Lol that is true. And pretty crazy when its described like that.

let's just say I'm like an id... savant when it comes to Michigan and what they produced from 42-45 it is an amazing.

the 20K+ tanks that the Detroit Arsenal produced is just a drop in the bucket.

 

[Indigo Blue]

let's just say I'm like an id... savant when it comes to Michigan and what they produced from 42-45 it is an amazing.

the 20K+ tanks that the Detroit Arsenal produced is just a drop in the bucket.

I can imagine. I'd seen a few of the statistics for production - but not much on the individualized scale. As is modern industrial production is basically a miracle. For example, microchip production - about only 5% is industrially done in the US. And chip production has a super tiny footprint relative to its output in the stuff it goes into.

 

[Had a dad]

Are you implying that Michigan (home of most of our auto-industry) did not in fact out produce Germany by themselves? At first I decided to post this in a completely facetious manner, as a harmless joke. Then I started to wonder if at least as far as vehicles go (not air craft) whether it might not be literally true.

It's very true or at least close. what Michigan produced is just ... staggering the highlights are 25K tanks (more than Germany did from 38-45) and 8500 B24's

There was far far more.

 

[Indigo Blue]

It's very true or at least close. what Michigan produced is just ... staggering the highlights are 25K tanks (more than Germany did from 38-45) and 8500 B24's

There was far far more.

Centralized production was definitely a hall mark of the US during wwII. I wonder where all the small parts were created that went into the big things.

 

[Had a dad]

Centralized production was definitely a hall mark of the US during wwII. I wonder where all the small parts were created that went into the big things.

A lot of them in Michigan also I was looking for some of the research I did about this because it was staggering...

another tidbit

the Fisher Body plant produced 11000+ M-4's and 5000+ M10's

Edit

And now I will step away from "How awesome was Mi in WW2" and let's go back to if my buddy Secret Master can pull off the impossible.

 

[Indigo Blue]

A lot of them in Michigan also I was looking for some of the research I did about this because it was staggering...

another tidbit

the Fisher Body plant produced 11000+ M-4's and 5000+ M10's

Edit

And now I will step away from "How awesome was Mi in WW2" and let's go back to if my buddy Secret Master can pull off the impossible.

He's already got the mechanics down as well as the capacity. Realistically what would be easier would be to just build MIC from 38-44 and count how many of 1 thing can be made (w/out changing production lines). Then take that IC value and do the math to redistribute it to equivalents of tanks/planes etc. And see if that production is actually viable, that way there is no need to count intermediate steps - Only a tally of starting infantry weapons and ending infantry weapons.

 

[Insp Herring]

I might have missed earlier discussions and tests, but is it possible for anyone to achieve historical production levels? (whatever that works out to be exactly with the interpretation of some abstracted items)

As far as major powers goes, it looks like you can maybe achieve that level of production for 1 of a limited set of items if you go completely balls out for that item and literally build nothing else.

 

[Indigo Blue]

I might have missed earlier discussions and tests, but is it possible for anyone to achieve historical production levels? (whatever that works out to be exactly with the interpretation of some abstracted items)

As far as major powers goes, it looks like you can maybe achieve that level of production for 1 of a limited set of items if you go completely balls out for that item and literally build nothing else.

Yes there was a different thread started by Secret master where we entered into discussion about how the numbers could be tracked. A few people were talking about it.

And yes for the most part if a country only built a specific item it could meet WWII actual production levels - other then that players are out of luck.

 

[Axe99]

I might have missed earlier discussions and tests, but is it possible for anyone to achieve historical production levels? (whatever that works out to be exactly with the interpretation of some abstracted items)

As far as major powers goes, it looks like you can maybe achieve that level of production for 1 of a limited set of items if you go completely balls out for that item and literally build nothing else.

With ships, with my messing around where I was building other things as well as ships, but ships were the focus, ITA, JAP and GER can get where they got fairly straightforwardly. ENG has no hope (even of just it's HoI4 ship types, and it produced a heap of DEs and corvettes), USA can do it, but can't hit the timeline it did it in, FRA can do it late if it survives, but starts off with fewer dockyards than it probably should, and the SOVs can do it but only because the SOVs can build up the capacity to pretty much do anything (measuring potential SOV production is tough, because most of their key dockyards were overrun or at least unable to produce ships for much of the war, so if SOV keep their dockyards, they do very well). Wasn't being terribly scientific about it, beyond making sure I built the right number of ships of the right type.

 

[GermanPower]

Secret I think changing the entire production system is needed. You'd need a total overhaul in order to achieve this. I believe it is very possible to achieve such things but it'd require totally revamping everything. You'd also have to carefully script the US.

National focus would require work
Resource demands/availability
Production efficiency+amount from factories

I think tackling it would be possible you'd just need to severely buff factories and drop resource draw. Along with axe factories within many nations. Black ICE looks like they are attempting such a overhaul based on screenshots.

 

[Fulmen]

Interesting thread.

It's a shame that nations being unable to reach historical production figures seems to be a recurring theme in HoI. One might almost expect PDX to at least come close by its 4th WWII game.

 

[Secret Master]

It's a shame that nations being unable to reach historical production figures seems to be a recurring theme in HoI.

You could do it in HOI3.

 

[Dalwin]

Interesting thread.

It's a shame that nations being unable to reach historical production figures seems to be a recurring theme in HoI. One might almost expect PDX to at least come close by its 4th WWII game.

This might be one of those times when play balance out weighs accuracy. I have said it many times. HOI is not really a WWII simulation, at least not on a detailed level. It is a game which goes to great lengths to immerse one in WWII flavor while loosely capturing the historical balance.

 

[FOARP]

The Paradox (hey!) here is that whilst it doesn't seem possible to build as many tanks/aircraft/etc. as were historically built by the US, it certainly is possible to equip many, many more combat units than the USA historically had. I've seen the USA with 900+ divisions and a large navy.

Why not simply aim to equip as many combat units as the US historically had and maintain a similar operational tempo to the one the US historically had?

 

[Insp Herring]

This might be one of those times when play balance out weighs accuracy. I have said it many times. HOI is not really a WWII simulation, at least not on a detailed level. It is a game which goes to great lengths to immerse one in WWII flavor while loosely capturing the historical balance.

The Paradox (hey!) here is that whilst it doesn't seem possible to build as many tanks/aircraft/etc. as were historically built by the US, it certainly is possible to equip many, many more combat units than the USA historically had. I've seen the USA with 900+ divisions and a large navy.

Why not simply aim to equip as many combat units as the US historically had and maintain a similar operational tempo to the one the US historically had?

I was just thinking that myself. Right now considering historical numbers, production levels are down from what they should be, yet division numbers for most nations are much higher than they should be. If we doubled or tripled factory output or whatever it would take to be able to build everything in realistic numbers, who knows what kind of AI spam we would see.


Also Dalwin, suuuuuuper loosely, but that poor horse is copping enough in other threads.

 

[Dalwin]

I was just thinking that myself. Right now considering historical numbers, production levels are down from what they should be, yet division numbers for most nations are much higher than they should be.


Also Dalwin, suuuuuuper loosely but that poor horse is copping enough in other threads.

Some of this is because the AI builds really bad divisions. It also tends to overbuild even when this can bear a large part of the burden for why it loses. The AI would do much better if t built fewer units.

The AI will have too many divisions because many of them will not have full equipment. Then you have what I consider to be a badly compromised historical balance which is in part to be blamed on the generic NF tree and how much additional production or manpower minor nations can gain from this. Making the minors fun to play is one thing. Going so far with this concept that the minors badly distort historical balance is another entirely.

 

[Indigo Blue]

Some of this is because the AI builds really bad divisions. It also tends to overbuild even when this can bear a large part of the burden for why it loses. The AI would do much better if t built fewer units.

The AI will have too many divisions because many of them will not have full equipment. Then you have what I consider to be a badly compromised historical balance which is in part to be blamed on the generic NF tree and how much additional production or manpower minor nations can gain from this. Making the minors fun to play is one thing. Going so far with this concept that the minors badly distort historical balance is another entirely.

A different thing I've heard that the AI does. Is that it has a tendency to convert brigades from bigger ones to smaller ones as manpower or equipment drops.

 

[Fulmen]

You could do it in HOI3.

I disagree.

To name an example, Russia IRL lost some 5+ million men in 1941 alone, but at the same time raised another force worth of 821 divisions. This in under 5,5 months. Simply impossible in any of the HoIs, at least unmodded.

I am quite certain that none of the majors were able to come close to historical production levels and military sizes within the game's timeframe without an ahistorically huge amount of IC spam.

I recall a thread back in HoI2 where someone as Germany had IIRC 500-600 IC by WW2, (easily surpassing USA) and was still unable to build everything Germany had IRL by '39-'41. Granted, this was HoI2, but when taking gearing bonus into account, production costs didn't differ that much from HoI3. And keep in mind that in HoI2 training times were a lot shorter than IRL.

 

[Cardus]

Alright, now that I actually understand some of the basic mechanics in the game, I'm almost ready to begin testing nations to see if they can reach their historical production.

But I need some help.

In HOI3, when we tested production, we had to convert the production of equipment into brigades and wings. In HOI4, we have equipment, but we need to still convert some things over.

For example, one rifle clearly does not equal one infantry kit, as you only need 100 infantry kits per infantry battalion. There is also the Liberty ship problem; one convoy in the game does not represent one Liberty ship. But what does it represent? I have no idea.

Planes and tanks are clearer, but because all nations have similar tech trees, a Sherman in the game might not actually be a Sherman. Getting exact tank numbers right might be hard. And heavy fighters versus light fighters versus carrier planes versus... you get the idea.

So, I want to come up with game equivalents for historical war production so I can actually try to reach production goals.

Those who know, let me know what you think.

I like this exercise. From my point of view HOI4 is inferior in every aspect of other games of the series but in production. However in my opinion a great opportunity to make things realistic/plausible was missed also this time. The USA war production was outstanding and impressive especially where mass production was implemented. This was possible for small ships, tanks, trucks, ammunition, etc. where the increase in output is strongly NON linear but was not possible for capital ships (where the output is almost linear). That's why in my opinion you may match historical figures more easily in the latter case. As far as I could see Paradox struggled to implement an adequate non linear production function therefore the biggest producer of WWII was always wrongly represented: too much production in the first years and too little in the end.