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TinMann

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Sometimes Duchy titles are more trouble than they're worth. Especially the big ones when held by powerful vassals. If one exists in my Kingdom and I dont want to hold it, and i dont want anyone else to either - what are my options? Other than editing a save game file that is.

I realize that (if this is even possible) that a vassal could re-claim it later if they hold 50% of the counties. I can deal with that when it happens.

Thanks in advance,
 

unmerged(460977)

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If you don’t want it you have to give it to someone else.

Often if you don’t create a title one of your vassals will. It may be better to create it and give it to someone who is content, rather than have that ambitious lord claim it for himself.
 

TinMann

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Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that my content vassal Dukes always seem to produce ambitious heirs. Are there any in-game mechanics I could use to shed a Duchy title? I had heard that a titular kingdom could be tossed by granting it to a baron, then declaring war and conquering him. If anyone else has a clever way to abandon a Duchy title I am all ears.
 

moldeh

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Thanks for the reply. It seems to me that my content vassal Dukes always seem to produce ambitious heirs. Are there any in-game mechanics I could use to shed a Duchy title? I had heard that a titular kingdom could be tossed by granting it to a baron, then declaring war and conquering him. If anyone else has a clever way to abandon a Duchy title I am all ears.

A good rule of thumb is to never make ducal titles. Even if you plan on holding them yourself, you still shouldn't. Ducal claims are one of the most inefficient means of conquest and even the prestige gains are completely negligible. Counts are more loyal, as they plot and revolt much less.
 

LarryLeica

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Do titular titles count against your held duchy limit? I started a succession war playing as one of the princes of Hungary in 1066, won the war, divided up the spoils after several years of revolts, revokations, and banishments, and I eventually held three duchies, one of which was Slovakia (titular), yet I am still getting a sizeable duchy penalty with my vassals, which is the one thing pushing everyone into the red. I can't seem to give the damn thing away either as it never comes up as an option yet the other two duchies do...
 

Tamerlan

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Sometimes Duchy titles are more trouble than they're worth. Especially the big ones when held by powerful vassals. If one exists in my Kingdom and I dont want to hold it, and i dont want anyone else to either - what are my options? Other than editing a save game file that is.

I realize that (if this is even possible) that a vassal could re-claim it later if they hold 50% of the counties. I can deal with that when it happens.

Thanks in advance,
Give all Duchy titles to one of your courtiers - without dependencies. When he (or his heirs) revolts some years later, you could let him become independent (you'll be able to reclaim his county later on which should make him landless, I think). Haven't really tried this yet though, as this is quite 'gamey'...
 
Last edited:

RobRoy3

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Give all Duchy titles to one of your courtiers - without dependencies. When he (or his heirs) revolts some years later, you could let him become independent (you'll be able to reclaim his county later on which should make him landless, I think). Haven't really tried this yet though, as this is quite 'gamey'...
Well, I'm one of those weird players who never edits or reloads, but happily takes advantage of every gamey exploit I can identify. So, I have tried this.

Unfortunately, it's a bit more difficult. Probably difficult enough that you might revise the "gamey" appellation. When you give the duchy titles away, the recipient becomes liege of those counts. So, when he becomes independent, he takes those counts with him. Not to mention that granting him independence lowers your crown authority.

So, what I've started doing is, after a duke rebels, and I seize his duchy, I keep it for awhile and try to encourage his former counts to rebel (and the newly demoted count to re-rebel). Don't resolve those wars until you've got all that duchy's counts in revolt and occupied; obviously this could take awhile. Only when you're able to pull most/all the counties do you pause, give away the duchy, BEFORE spinning off the counts to new vassals.

The target recipient of the discard duchy should be a terrible one county vassal, with as many negative traits as you can find (you're hoping to foster revolt between any future counts and him). Ideally he'll be near muslims or pagans, as well. Hopefully giving him the duchy doesn't give him suzerainty over too many counties, but you're not always going to be able to time the revolts and hand-overs perfectly.

Once you've got your duchy dumpster set up, don't rush things, he'll be a terrible vassal, but you may be able to throw multiple duchy titles his way before he revolts. He'll get more and more negatives, but if he only controls one county, he's generally not too eager to push things, too quickly. Besides you still get the prestige for having those duke vassals until he actually revolts.

After he revolts and you surrender, start trying to generate a claim on his county(s) (more convenient if you already have one, though I'm not sure if you'd lose it in the surrender). After the truce, you declare war and take his county, poof, duchies disappear. If you're fortunate, some muslims or pagans might do the job for you, but how lucky do you feel?

Bit difficult, lots of micro-management, and timing is tricky, so it's probably not worth it, but if you're a perfectionist, it's the only way I can figure out within the game system to minimize the number of duchies, if they're already been created and you're already suzerain (i.e., invasion aside). Waste of time for two county duchies, and probably not worth it for three county duchies, either. But if you can get rid of the big duchy titles, and you hold two yourself, you can keep the larger counties in your personal demense and still keep a lot more vassals happy.

Of course, invasions are tailor made for killing duchies.
 

LarryLeica

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Wellington

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I destroyed the title Dutchy of Island since I did not want ayony to have it. A few turns later one of the two counts on Iceland created the title again fo himself.
The strategy then I assume must be to make sure to have direct controll over at least one county in every dutchy (if you are the duke) or de jure dutcy if the title is not already created. Am I right?
 

NewbieOne

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I destroyed the title Dutchy of Island since I did not want ayony to have it. A few turns later one of the two counts on Iceland created the title again fo himself.
The strategy then I assume must be to make sure to have direct controll over at least one county in every dutchy (if you are the duke) or de jure dutcy if the title is not already created. Am I right?

To create a duchy one needs 50% of the holdings, so 1 county doesn't change much. In duchies that are composed of 2 counties (I don't think there are any 1-county duchies in this game), just the sole other county will be enough for a vassal to create the title.
 

Isaios

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I destroyed the title Dutchy of Island since I did not want ayony to have it. A few turns later one of the two counts on Iceland created the title again fo himself.
The strategy then I assume must be to make sure to have direct controll over at least one county in every dutchy (if you are the duke) or de jure dutcy if the title is not already created. Am I right?

As long as you're a Duke yourself, all you need is to have the Counts as vassals, if you're a King, you'll need to hold both Counties (very annoying, I know).

To create a duchy one needs 50% of the holdings, so 1 county doesn't change much. In duchies that are composed of 2 counties (I don't think there are any 1-county duchies in this game), just the sole other county will be enough for a vassal to create the title.

Venice.
 

unmerged(75409)

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If you want your count vassals to not be able to create duke titles, try bishops. They don't inherit stuff, they don't fish for claims so much, they usually don't wage wars - and they love you for piety. Perfect quiet little guys. Try to put 2 bishops into your 3-province provinces, that will let you keep a count in the 3rd but he won't be able to inherit his way to a duchy.
 

Isaios

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If you want your count vassals to not be able to create duke titles, try bishops. They don't inherit stuff, they don't fish for claims so much, they usually don't wage wars - and they love you for piety. Perfect quiet little guys. Try to put 2 bishops into your 3-province provinces, that will let you keep a count in the 3rd but he won't be able to inherit his way to a duchy.

Though this doesn't solve the problem of a two County Duchy. There you'll always have problems keeping the enemy in check. The only time I've seen the AI fail to create a Duchy when holding one of two Counties is when the other County in the Duchy is outside the realm so that there's a Usurpation chance.
 

unmerged(494787)

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You could always give each county in a duchy to a duke (or a count's vassal contract) from a different duchy, then give the duke title to a third (unrelated) duke. This way the power gains are spread around, your dukes like each other less, and you don't have to worry about someone creating it. If you have Medium CA, you don't even have to worry about them starting wars over it much.
 

Isaios

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You could always give each county in a duchy to a duke (or a count's vassal contract) from a different duchy, then give the duke title to a third (unrelated) duke. This way the power gains are spread around, your dukes like each other less, and you don't have to worry about someone creating it. If you have Medium CA, you don't even have to worry about them starting wars over it much.

But... is it better to have two Dukes with, say, two Counties each elsewhere getting one additional, or three Dukes with two Counties each? I'd almost certainly go with the latter. Most times it's better, by far, to have them weaker.
 

Ols

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If one Duchy is troublesome than make it a Theocratic or Republican title. They may revolt, but they wont become superdukes and they wont have troublesome families.
 

unmerged(494787)

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True, having 3 dukes with 2 counties each is better than two with three (depending on the counties), but you could split a 4-county duchy four ways, then drop the duchy title on a fifth duke (This way one of them can't make it should they inherit a second county in that duchy somehow). There are plenty of ways to implement this.