Can I really have an army without upkeep?

[Howl]

If I stack enough -land maintenance modifiers how low can I go? It must be capped somewhere?

-50% Revolutionary
-10% Defensive
-10% Quantity
-10% Trading in Salt
-20% War Taxes

That's 100% reduction right there and if I understand correctly it should also apply to mercs.
Also there are even more sources for the modifier available (Economic, policies, advisor). Surely army upkeep cannot be negative.

I've never considered going revolutionary before, so I never noticed...

 

[Quaade]

can´t recall the terms... but some adds on top and some just lowers by percentage... so in effect you will never reach 0 maintenance

 

[cuendillar]

Negative would be awesome, but that's almost certainly blocked. In these cases where you can stack modfiers on top of each other, there's usually a minimum value where no further discounts/bonuses would do anything.

Negative land maintenance would imply infinite money as the larger and farther over the forcelimit your army is, the more cash it gives you. Feels a bit like an exploit to me, so I think there must be a min cost.

 

[Markusmiless]

There used to be a possibility to get land maintenance in the negative, which was easy with etc. Scotland (-15% land maintenance reduction) which meant that when you recruited units you could gain more and more money (which could be used with mercs).

I don't remember when they patched it but I believe it was before Mandate of Heaven.

 

[Regaccio]

I tested it out real quick with a custom nation: A Native Council with -20% Land Maintenance NI and a Grand Captain, raising War Taxes. Theoretically being Mayan should've allowed me to get it down to -110% through reforms, but there's still a UI conflict where being a Native Council and Mayan/Inti at the same time doesn't let you access both screens.

In any case, I don't think it would've mattered. Even at -100% Land Maintenance I still paid money for my units. (albeit almost nothing) I think the base cost of regiments enforces a minimum ducat cost you still have to pay no matter how low the maintenance modifier is.

However, by taking Quantity Ideas and a -20% Regiment Cost NI I was able to squeeze that number down to .01 ducat per month per infantry. I'm not sure if that's the floor or if you can go even lower.

So stacking both Land Maintenance AND Regiment Cost reduction may be successful. In theory, the lowest-cost build possible is probably a Tengri Native Council with -20% Regiment Cost and Land Maintenance NIs, -20% Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery cost NIs, with a Grand Captain hired and War Taxes raised, trading in Iron, Livestock, and Salt, as well as Quantity, Economic, Expansion, Administrative, and Defensive ideas.

All that put together between policies, ideas, etc. would give -65% Regiment Cost, -20% Infantry Cost, -30% Cavalry Cost, -20% Artillery Cost, and -150% Land Maintenance modifiers. If you play on Very Easy you can bring that Regiment Cost down to -98%... But who wants to do that?

In theory, if you could have a parliament and a native council at the same time, or be Revolutionary and have a Parliament, or somehow have Estates as a Native Council or a Revolutionary Government, or all three of them together, you could stack things even higher, too. You could also enjoy the novelty of how a Revolutionary Tribal Parliament of the Estates-of-the-Realm is somehow the most efficient way to supply an army.

 

[Reman]

You'll find most modifiers that reduce costs of things in this game are capped at -90%. Unfortunately it seems that Paradox considers it an exploit to get down to -100%, even though it usually takes an entire game's worth of effort to pull off. This is what is likely happening here with land maintenance reduction.

Interestingly, a modifier that is NOT capped is Administrative Efficiency, which you can get to 100% by a custom nation exploit.

 

[Howl]

snip

In theory, if you could have a parliament and a native council at the same time, or be Revolutionary and have a Parliament, or somehow have Estates as a Native Council or a Revolutionary Government, or all three of them together, you could stack things even higher, too. You could also enjoy the novelty of how a Revolutionary Tribal Parliament of the Estates-of-the-Realm is somehow the most efficient way to supply an army.

Cool, thanks for all the work. That would indeed be a pretty strange nation.
I decided against trying for it on the assumption that by 1710 when I could go revolutionary I will be filthy rich anyway. So little merit in reducing army power for money.
Teching to DipTech 23 from 9 in one go already removed all my money worries. I have been comically short on cash all game due to a maxed out corruption slider at all times, that's why it seemed tempting at first.

You'll find most modifiers that reduce costs of things in this game are capped at -90%. Unfortunately it seems that Paradox considers it an exploit to get down to -100%, even though it usually takes an entire game's worth of effort to pull off. This is what is likely happening here with land maintenance reduction.

Interestingly, a modifier that is NOT capped is Administrative Efficiency, which you can get to 100% by a custom nation exploit.

I am playing Ryukyu and contemplated going for 0 AE by stacking modifiers. However that would require being papal controller and at least 6 idea groups for policies. So it would kind of be available way past the time it would have been still useful.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Negative would be awesome, but that's almost certainly blocked. In these cases where you can stack modfiers on top of each other, there's usually a minimum value where no further discounts/bonuses would do anything.

Negative land maintenance would imply infinite money as the larger and farther over the forcelimit your army is, the more cash it gives you. Feels a bit like an exploit to me, so I think there must be a min cost.

Many patches ago negative maintenance was not blocked, and it did indeed allow for infinitely accelerating money. It's capped now.

I am playing Ryukyu and contemplated going for 0 AE by stacking modifiers. However that would require being papal controller and at least 6 idea groups for policies. So it would kind of be available way past the time it would have been still useful.

That's how it tends to go with -AE modifiers. The later in the game you go, the less you care about AE. When it's early and you need them most, it's not realistic to stack them yet. Most common is to have influence and maybe some improve relations modifiers and call it a day.

 

[Zephyrum]

You'll find most modifiers that reduce costs of things in this game are capped at -90%. Unfortunately it seems that Paradox considers it an exploit to get down to -100%, even though it usually takes an entire game's worth of effort to pull off. This is what is likely happening here with land maintenance reduction.

Interestingly, a modifier that is NOT capped is Administrative Efficiency, which you can get to 100% by a custom nation exploit.

This is kinda for the best. I like how EU4 basically allows you to focus your nation almost entirely around one modifier, as stacking is more effective than having a large amount of small modifiers (25% discipline is better than 5% discipline 10% infCA 10% cavCA 10% artCA +10% fire +10% shock, for example), but for cost reduction modifiers, if it went negative, it's just be disastrous in some situations, like multiplayer.

Back in MoH patch, using golden age + free wartaxes age ability, you would gain milpoints for getting wartaxes - which would be pretty ridiclous if you could keep doing it over and over. Thankfully, you can't keep clicking it. But imagine negative stab cost, or negative dev cost... ouch.

 

[Howl]

Many patches ago negative maintenance was not blocked, and it did indeed allow for infinitely accelerating money. It's capped now.

That's how it tends to go with -AE modifiers. The later in the game you go, the less you care about AE. When it's early and you need them most, it's not realistic to stack them yet. Most common is to have influence and maybe some improve relations modifiers and call it a day.

It is going to be my Three Mountains run and I tried to come up with something new or entertaining. But I could not. So I am doing it the old fashioned way. Suffer alot in the beginning and grow steadily. A few years ago I have just reached the stage where my money worries are gone and I can beat anyone silly if I focus on them. A very welcome change. Which also resulted in some overconfidence and a coalition forming...

 

[hrimhari]

You'll find most modifiers that reduce costs of things in this game are capped at -90%. Unfortunately it seems that Paradox considers it an exploit to get down to -100%, even though it usually takes an entire game's worth of effort to pull off. This is what is likely happening here with land maintenance reduction.

Interestingly, a modifier that is NOT capped is Administrative Efficiency, which you can get to 100% by a custom nation exploit.

Land attrition reduction seems to be capped at -80%, given that I can get 1% attrition with -100% rating. (Defensive, humanist, exploration, quantity, NIs)