Can I force my puppets to open their borders?

[_karl_]

Playing as Haiti, I was planning to puppet some minor African countries and use my dual European+African heritage to extract migrants from them without even needing multiculturalism. But their pop won't move. I think it's because they all have the "closed border" law, which closes borders in both directions.
This "closed border" already doesn't sound very realistic to me, especially if that's bidirectional (closing borders requires some solid bureaucracy and police system, something difficult even for the most advanced states of that time). But it would be really weird if protectorates can forbid the migration towards their overlord, against the will of the overlord.

 

[BPZ1941]

Closed Borders is worse than you think. It actually prevents internal movement between states too. Hands-down probably the worst law in the game, to be honest.

 

[MathyM]

Closed Borders is worse than you think. It actually prevents internal movement between states too. Hands-down probably the worst law in the game, to be honest.

It’s only good for one thing: getting that 95% Literacy achievement (which is bugged and works even for countries that start with more than 20% Literacy), and keeping Peasants below 10% of your population, for the Egalitarian Society mission.

Other than that, more pops are always better.

 

[_karl_]

Closed Borders is worse than you think. It actually prevents internal movement between states too. Hands-down probably the worst law in the game, to be honest.

Which, on the other hand, would make some sense with serfdom and slavery.
So maybe Closed Borders (as it is now) should be restricted to states having enacted one of those, or restricted to affecting only those pops.

 

[Opanashc]

Which, on the other hand, would make some sense with serfdom and slavery.
So maybe Closed Borders (as it is now) should be restricted to states having enacted one of those, or restricted to affecting only those pops.

USSR had closed borders, but not serfdom and slavery.

 

[grommile]

USSR had closed borders

Not the way vicky 3 implements them it didn't.

(Most importantly, even if you didn't have an internal passport, you could still be moved internally at the order of the state.)

 

[Opanashc]

Not the way vicky 3 implements them it didn't.

(Most importantly, even if you didn't have an internal passport, you could still be moved internally at the order of the state.)

The way vicky 3 implements them, no country had closed borders - there were always some strata of society that could migrate.

 

[BPZ1941]

Which, on the other hand, would make some sense with serfdom and slavery.
So maybe Closed Borders (as it is now) should be restricted to states having enacted one of those, or restricted to affecting only those pops.

Sure, but serfs and slaves aren't real people as defined by the states authorizing those restrictions - they shouldn't be allowed to migrate by default imo.

 

[_karl_]

USSR had closed borders, but not serfdom and slavery.

Kind of. That's a good point. But that's an example of a Great Power in the late 30's, which as I said had "some solid bureaucracy and police system". It's a situation totally different to the case of minor African protectorates I was talking about. If the law is made for situations such as late 30's USSR, then it should at least require the "passport" technology to be unlocked (I think the game has this technology, somewhere in the middle of the tree). Somehow one has to decide for which of these two situations the law is made.

 

[_karl_]

Sure, but serfs and slaves aren't real people as defined by the states authorizing those restrictions - they shouldn't be allowed to migrate by default imo.

I think in theory and in the main lines you're right, not being allowed to move is pretty much in the definition of serfdom itself, but in practice it could be a bit more complicated.
In the Middle Ages of Western Europe, migration of serfs was a large part of why serfdom disappeared, a long time before the formal emancipation laws. If they were able to reach places which would protect them, in particular places under the control of the Church or towns with special privileges, then taking them back was impossible. It was in particular important after the plague, when there was some kind of competition to attract the scarce workforce.
So even if moving is forbidden, and if the restrictions can feel very real to individuals, it can be that the illegal migrations are enough to make major changes in the society on the long term. Maybe it's what would have happened in Russia if they had stuck to serfdom for a few more decades.
But I'm digressing. I think the main issue is simply the general fact that I should have some way to impose a law to my puppets or ignore it (when colonial powers wanted workforce they just took it, it didn't really matter what the opinion of the colony was). I think an "immigration office" institution would also make a lot of sense, as we had in the real world some administrations dedicated to attracting workforce from the colonies. On top of giving an immigration attraction bonus (instead of just the yes/no of the law), the highest levels could bypass the "closed border" restriction of your junior partners.

 

[BPZ1941]

On top of giving an immigration attraction bonus (instead of just the yes/no of the law), the highest levels could bypass the "closed border" restriction of your junior partners.

I'm not sure such a system is necessary, because I think the current implementation of closed borders is deeply flawed. Your earlier post on the USSR took note of the same grievance I have - preventing migration in general is hard, and emigration in particular even more so. I sort of get what they were going for, but closed borders as a reactionary default doesn't make sense to me.

 

[imperial.]

It’s only good for one thing: getting that 95% Literacy achievement (which is bugged and works even for countries that start with more than 20% Literacy), and keeping Peasants below 10% of your population, for the Egalitarian Society mission.

Other than that, more pops are always better.

Quality over Quantity I guess.