Can dev provide a loss list after a mock battle between armored divisions

[wolf1455]

Please moderator: correct my spelling on the headline. prive to provide. Thank you.

Im a little worried that a US tank(44) is as same as a Ge tank(44) only difference is in name only. To be a new way of handling this new equipment based hoi there should be a difference in the way US and Ge tanks has evolved in the game since 1939. US tanks less quality and more quantity so in just one mock battle that stretch over say 3 days the German tanks should have more kills but lower replacement rate. If actuall crew skill is involved even more kills. So even if you (devs) cant graphicly show this mock combat, can you provide us with the score list? THe german tanks should have better guns and armor than the US if these two sides where played by the AI, if the AI was to follow historical focus. In comparison to the hoi3 way of handling tank and combat doctrines by the AI that did not copy historical path and indeed tried to all make a clone on all that Germany did good at the start of the war and Allied learned from experience the hard way.
If this can be shown then my first instinct was right about your new approach to tank evolvement in Hoi4 I will be more eager to by hoi4 from start and even make my friends buy it, so we can enjoy it toghether. One of them by the way has doctoring in ww2 production history focused on the Soviet side.

 

[Wyrm]

Well, you should easily be able to emulate this in the game as it is now.

The US would keep building the 42 tank at an ever increasing speed while Germany keep switching their production over to newer 44-models with better combat capabilities but at the expense of lower manufacturing rates.

 

[SpanglishEmpire]

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...History-through-a-Look-at-Military-Technology

Watch that and that will show you what they are aiming at, It is exactly what you want.

 

[safe-keeper]

HOI is all about making your own armies. In other words, if you want tanks that are fast, but not that heavily armoured, just research the relevant techs and buy the relevant upgrades. Sure, starting techs and practical will influence things, but the bottom line is that you get to customize things to a very large degree yourself.

 

[Axe99]

Please moderator: correct my spelling on the headline. prive to provide. Thank you.

Im a little worried that a US tank(44) is as same as a Ge tank(44) only difference is in name only.

With tech and variants, it's highly unlikely tanks will be the same for different, but as safe-keeper says, as HoI is an alt-history game there's a chance that it might be Germany mass producing '42 tanks and the US going all-in with the '44 model (Pershings I'd guess?), and as to which side would have more experience, that would depend on the specific divisions in combat and their war experience up to that date. That said, I'd expect that an AI-controlled country would err towards historical production choices, only changing when the circumstances changed (for example, Germany does better than historically, has more resources and some breathing space, so decides it can switch over to '44 tanks).

 

[1alexey]

HOI is all about making your own armies. In other words, if you want tanks that are fast, but not that heavily armoured, just research the relevant techs and buy the relevant upgrades. Sure, starting techs and practical will influence things, but the bottom line is that you get to customize things to a very large degree yourself.

Nope, you pick the number of units you can keep up to date in every possible useful tech, and ditch the rest. Even more so in HOI4, where the gearing bonus will make broad number of units be terrible due to having to spend experience to upgrade each model, thus even more less = better.

 

[Axe99]

Nope, you pick the number of units you can keep up to date in every possible useful tech, and ditch the rest. Even more so in HOI4, where the gearing bonus will make broad number of units be terrible due to having to spend experience to upgrade each model, thus even more less = better.

We don't know this yet, it depends on how it's all balanced - don't forget the hit to gearing bonus from switching to a variant of the same model is a lot less than starting a new line all over again. I'd be very surprised if they built in the variant system, then balanced the game to make it useless.

 

[1alexey]

We don't know this yet, it depends on how it's all balanced - don't forget the hit to gearing bonus from switching to a variant of the same model is a lot less than starting a new line all over again. I'd be very surprised if they built in the variant system, then balanced the game to make it useless.

Was there any? The way I red the DD, the same model doesn`t have a penalty for variant production.

 

[Axe99]

Was there any? The way I red the DD, the same model doesn`t have a penalty for variant production.

From memory (and this is hazy, and it might have changed, and tbh I'm not entirely sure where the memory is from), the idea was that changing production lines to a variant (same model but with plusses to the four variant categories) or a sub-type (same model but Tank Destroyer sub-type) incurred a small to medium penalty, but changing a production line to a whole new model basically re-set everything back to zip (ie, you lose all your economies of scale, so you'd go from building 10 PZ IIs a week to 2 Pz IIs, say - numbers in comparison completely made up, as it wasn't balanced in the DD so even if I could remember the exact numbers they could have changed by now) - so it'd make sense to keep cranking out advanced variants of 109s even though it was possible to transfer all your lines to Ta-152s, as the lines were set up and cranking, and the variant bonuses meant they were close enough to the new techs (at least initially) to be worth it.

I'm pretty sure this is how it was, but my memory isn't perfect, so someone may drop in and correct me .

 

[Denkt]

I'm pretty sure this is how it was, but my memory isn't perfect, so someone may drop in and correct me .

I think it works like this:
Changing between variants incure the least penalty how much could be a fixed number or depend upon how closely related they are to eachother so a engine heavy tank can very easly be replaced with another heavy engine tank but not as easly be replaced by a gun heavy tank.
Swap between same hull vehicle, example tank to its tank destoyer hull, cost more then variant swap but is cheaper then anything else.
Swaping between same category tanks such as medium to medium cost less then medium to heavy I think, maybe you also loss less if they are more closely realted tech wise such as 1942 swap to 1944 tank is cheaper then swap to 1945.
Changing a tank line to something that is not a tank hull cost all efficiency.

Nope, you pick the number of units you can keep up to date in every possible useful tech, and ditch the rest. Even more so in HOI4, where the gearing bonus will make broad number of units be terrible due to having to spend experience to upgrade each model, thus even more less = better.

If your bottleneck is manpower, then it may be better to produce specialised variants to get as much efficiency out of every unit you have.
Its is likley that the more upgraded a variant is the more exp points next upgrade will cost.
You also get some sort of penalty for upgrades like loss of speed or unreliability, it may also be more expansive to produce upped units.

so it'd make sense to keep cranking out advanced variants of 109s even though it was possible to transfer all your lines to Ta-152s, as the lines were set up and cranking, and the variant bonuses meant they were close enough to the new techs (at least initially) to be worth it.

Depends on how much we can upgrade and how strong and costly teching the later planes are.
Air DD said that air battles is 1 vs 1 so quality is very important, if it become something like tech vs exp points and production then Germany who probably have gathered most exp points and also have need of production will probably chose 109s, we have to see how things will work.

Im a little worried that a US tank(44) is as same as a Ge tank(44) only difference is in name only. To be a new way of handling this new equipment based hoi there should be a difference in the way US and Ge tanks has evolved in the game since 1939. US tanks less quality and more quantity so in just one mock battle that stretch over say 3 days the German tanks should have more kills but lower replacement rate. If actuall crew skill is involved even more kills. So even if you (devs) cant graphicly show this mock combat, can you provide us with the score list? THe german tanks should have better guns and armor than the US if these two sides where played by the AI, if the AI was to follow historical focus. In comparison to the hoi3 way of handling tank and combat doctrines by the AI that did not copy historical path and indeed tried to all make a clone on all that Germany did good at the start of the war and Allied learned from experience the hard way.
If this can be shown then my first instinct was right about your new approach to tank evolvement in Hoi4 I will be more eager to by hoi4 from start and even make my friends buy it, so we can enjoy it toghether. One of them by the way has doctoring in ww2 production history focused on the Soviet side.

It will depend on your situation:
Germany who have been at war for long time feels its manpower shortage more and more, producing low tech and quality tanks will not win the war becuase without manpower you can't use most of these anyway, it is far better to get the most out of every soldier even at a production cost so germany chose to swap out some lines to 1944 tanks.
US who have been at peace for long time have a large manpower pool however then war breaks out their neither have any efficient lines.
Its allies need alot of equipment, US have the industry and have just gotten tank 1942 (Sherman) and also saved up to the exp cap for land.
So US swap a large part of its civilian IC into military IC, set some lines of Sherman tank variant (US spent alot of its saved up exp on the tank), keep some tank for itself and give the rest to allies.

Also each country will follow a doctrime, we yet have to know if these effectes your production or encourage you to produce in different ways.