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nijis

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10 Kingdoms corresponding to linguistic boundaries. There is indeed a correlation but correlation is not causation. The cause is geography.

Okay -- that makes sense. And I also that another underlying cause may also be pre-existing administrative structures, which in turn are related to geographical funneling.


I agree that Celestial empire Han revolters should have an "all under heaven" casus belli. Annexation or taking provinces under this should incur zero infamy, it's idiotic to have "widespread opposition" or be seen as "dishonorable scum" to try to unite the country.

Those all seem like appropriate effects.

I still think that regional distinctions among the Han should be represented by different cultural groups (I don't know if you were disputing that). I realize that intellectual frameworks like "All under Heaven" are important, but I find it hard to believe that you can have a territory as huge and linguistically diverse as China without some impact on politics and the ability of local statelets to be stable, for at least a little while.

In France, for what it's worth, I think that most local separatist resistance -- such as it was -- was justified by pre-existing feudal arrangements, which don't exist in China. But mostly the impact of local identify, as far as can be traced, is that the region was more restive. In the 14th century, for example, Brittany maintained a claim to independence, but rebellions in Languedoc were mostly objecting to the quality of rule of the dukes appointed as regional governors, not the idea that the throne of France should rule them at all.

I would also point out from having spent years in two countries undergoing power vacuums -- Egypt and Iraq -- that regional identities that are heavily sublimated in times of peace and plenty can come boiling to the surface in time of turmoil. Often it's not so much a question of XXX for the XXXis, as it is "Those YYYish bastards in the capital are making a mess of things, and we'll just hold our own here in XXX until they get a better government."

So, while both language and China's regional cleavage lines (such as they were) may stem from the same root cause, I'd be very surprised if they didn't reinforce each other.

In other words, I'd like the game to model China's Han linguistic divisions as such linguistic divisions would be modeled anywhere in the world, and then have them mitigated by special Chinese national ideas, rather than have China come pre-homogenized.

China's unifying written language should not trump the difference in dialects. Wiki's article on standard Chinese mentions consistent difficulties that even the educated elites of the provinces had in making themselves understood in the capital. It is also not unique. The Arab world has a standard written language but very different spoken languages. Sixteenth-century missionaries in China explicitly compared the language of the Chinese court to Latin, as a pan-regional official language.
 
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Sun_Wu

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Okay -- that makes sense. And I also that another underlying cause may also be pre-existing administrative structures, which in turn are related to geographical funneling.




Those all seem like appropriate effects.

I still think that regional distinctions among the Han should be represented by different cultural groups (I don't know if you were disputing that). I realize that intellectual frameworks like "All under Heaven" are important, but I find it hard to believe that you can have a territory as huge and linguistically diverse as China without some impact on politics and the ability of local statelets to be stable, for at least a little while.

In France, for what it's worth, I think that most local separatist resistance -- such as it was -- was justified by pre-existing feudal arrangements, which don't exist in China. But mostly the impact of local identify, as far as can be traced, is that the region was more restive. In the 14th century, for example, Brittany maintained a claim to independence, but rebellions in Languedoc were mostly objecting to the quality of rule of the dukes appointed as regional governors, not the idea that the throne of France should rule them at all.

I would also point out from having spent years in two countries undergoing power vacuums -- Egypt and Iraq -- that regional identities that are heavily sublimated in times of peace and plenty can come boiling to the surface in time of turmoil. Often it's not so much a question of XXX for the XXXis, as it is "Those YYYish bastards in the capital are making a mess of things, and we'll just hold our own here in XXX until they get a better government."

So, while both language and China's regional cleavage lines (such as they were) may stem from the same root cause, I'd be very surprised if they didn't reinforce each other.

In other words, I'd like the game to model China's Han linguistic divisions as such linguistic divisions would be modeled anywhere in the world, and then have them mitigated by special Chinese national ideas, rather than have China come pre-homogenized.

China's unifying written language should not trump the difference in dialects. Wiki's article on standard Chinese mentions consistent difficulties that even the educated elites of the provinces had in making themselves understood in the capital. It is also not unique. The Arab world has a standard written language but very different spoken languages. Sixteenth-century missionaries in China explicitly compared the language of the Chinese court to Latin, as a pan-regional official language.
The thing is Chinese culture is based on structure and order, it places the needs of the group over the individual. The Imperial examination system helped provide a standardised culture and administration.
 

aaronlaw97

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Chinese people do not care about independence as much as Europe because they abandoned "full out" feudalism way before the EU timeline. We think more of ethnic unity. The Han people漢族 consist of over 90% of the Chinese population. "All under Heaven" is the basis for most Chinese rulers since Zhou Dynasty in 1050BC.
 

nijis

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The thing is Chinese culture is based on structure and order, it places the needs of the group over the individual. The Imperial examination system helped provide a standardised culture and administration.

I would respond that....

1) The vast majority of 15th century Chinese did not undergo imperial pre-exam schooling, although there is some sort of trickle-down effect of values
2) All societies at this time valued group identity, and on multiple levels -- family, village, state, and superstate (ie, Christendom).
3) Officially promoted ideologies, in my opinion, in most circumstances have a subtle rather than decisive impact on actual political behavior -- especially not before the advent of mass education. EU's national ideas I think are a good approach to how ideology tempers rather than determines political behavior.

The popularity of the Water Margin/All Men Are Brothers (水滸傳) in this period -- and its banning by the Ming -- certainly suggest a considerable degree of skepticism toward official ideology, I'd think.

China throughout the imperial period was very rebellious and prone to splintering. Aside from a Mandate of Heaven mechanism to encourage reunification and maybe a faction system that can boost administrative output at the cost of policy inflexibility, I'm not sure it merits different treatment in this particular regard than other entities of the same size and linguistic diversity.


The Han people漢族 consist of over 90% of the Chinese population.

Consist today, but maybe not consisted then. I would think that in the 15th century, the non-Han population of the south (Guangxi and Yunnan in particular) would probably be significantly larger than it is today, because considerable effort was made to Sinify these areas during Ming and Qing.

But that's a minor point.

The main point I'd make is that, if you're going to make special game mechanisms for China, they should aim to make sure what happened in 15th-18th century China will happen in game, not the officially promoted ideal.
 
Last edited:

SchwarzKatze

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IMHO, things like Min and Yue secede and becoming independent states while Ming holds the rest of "China" firmly shouldn't happen, the only time they should appear is when Ming has totally collapsed or when the region is held by non-Sinitic countries.
 

nijis

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things like Min and Yue secede and becoming independent states while Ming holds the rest of "China" firmly shouldn't happen,

Sure -- but that shouldn't happen for France, either, unless as you say the central state is having a severe crisis.
 

ptan54

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you know more about china than probably most on the forum :p

We need more folks like Sun who can talk to PI to ensure that the Far East is semi-accurately portrayed, rather than just being a big blob for Europeans to annex for unlimited manpower.