Can cavalry crush Poland, France and SU?

[Saltynuts]

I was thinking for my next game using massive cavalry (I know the Commander is a fan). I don't think they are obsolete at the start, and I think end game they are awesome, but in between they can become obsolete.

If I built massive cavalry (instead of MOT or MECH or ARM), could I effectively crush, Poland, France, then SU to get bitter peace before they become ineffective? Because after that in my mind the ground game is pretty much one.

Are they generally fast enough for mass encirclements and overruning troops to cause their destruction?

Thanks!

 

[bosman]

That is very interesting. I never supposed i would just start AoD after someone raise that question
I'm pretty sure it's possible for Poland, probably France too, only attach at least AC and ENG brigades to each division. You will however need better air support if you want to lower losses. With Soviets the task is going to be hard, but i think there is still a chance. Strong brigades and massive air support (including strategic) will surely be necessary.

 

[Pang Bingxun]

You could try to spam out cavalry to have 100+ of them at Danzig. You take out Poland and Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg simultaneously only to shortly after take france in something like early october 1939. Once the weather allows you take soviet union in the second and third quarter of 1940 to trigger Bitter Peace.

It would likely work well, but in 1941 all the experience those cavalry gained becomes somewhat obsolete. Cav4-SpArt1940 uses about 30% more tc to reach the same firepower as Mech1942-SpArt1940. That is mostly because the lower firepower per divisions requires you to endure much higher stacking penalty. The idea to massively use cavalry is seriosly flawed.

I'm pretty sure it's possible for Poland, probably France too, only attach at least AC and ENG brigades to each division.

SpArt is much better.

You will however need better air support if you want to lower losses. With Soviets the task is going to be hard, but i think there is still a chance. Strong brigades and massive air support (including strategic) will surely be necessary.

I doubt air suppport is so necessary. What is necessary is to to be fast so cavalry is used while it still is strong. Also it makes much sense to use central planning.

 

[Saltynuts]

Haha bosman, glad I maybe got you back into the game!

So Pang, what about if i used my patented technique of forgetting about France until later. Mass spam cavalry, then crush poland, then IMMEDIATELY rush the SU. I did it with MOT last game and the SU was on its knees by very early 1940.

After that, I don't care if cavalry become obsolete for awhile, because my understanding is that eventually they upgrade to some very powerful units. I can wait to crush France until that time comes. In the mean time build up my navy, interceptors, etc.

By the way, are cavalry fast enough to complete encirclements, and more importantly to overrun troops by going through the province they are retreating from due to your attack to the province they are retreating to before the retreating units can get there? That's critical in my mind. I'm sure they are slower than MOT, and if that ability is loss the strategy loses a lot of its luster.

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

So Pang, what about if i used my patented technique of forgetting about France until later. Mass spam cavalry, then crush poland, then IMMEDIATELY rush the SU. I did it with MOT last game and the SU was on its knees by very early 1940.

Then you attack soviet union during winter. Mtn is a lot better than cavalry for that.

After that, I don't care if cavalry become obsolete for awhile, because my understanding is that eventually they upgrade to some very powerful units.

I disagree on the later. In 1946 they become semiuseful, albeit still weaker than what is available then. In 1951 they upgrade to the fastest unit there is in the game, but it is a lot weaker than what is availble then. If somehow you choose a mass cavalry approach the reasonable thing to do is to start mass producing Arm1941-SpArt1940 in late 1940. Fully utilizing assembly line techs that will be reasonable cheap. As your amount of armoured divisions grows you gradually disband all cavalry. Or maybe keep a dozen of them for anti-partisan duties.

By the way, are cavalry fast enough to complete encirclements,

Speed 10 should suffice, in fact it will be speed 11 as you want to use the +10% speed chief of Staff anyway because of the +5% it gives on cavalry. Speed is not the reason not to use cavalry. Often they have better speed modifiers than motorized. There is the one exception of desert. There cavalry is really weak.

 

[bosman]

Actually Germans used a lot of cavalry, but not as strictly fighting force like Poles rather as a transportation. This is probably most interesting comparision, because a ratio of independed cavalry units towards independed armoured units in Germany was like vice-versa of what was in Poland.

 

[Commander666]

I was thinking for my next game using massive cavalry (I know the Commander is a fan).

You wrongly change my statements. I am not a fan at all of any "massive" single unit strategy. Using massive cavalry for Poland is the worst idea you have yet conjured.

I am a fan of using a reasonable number of cavalry divisions for Germany to deal with numerous tasks they handle better than any other unit. A small number used correctly can be crucial. But that might be 5% of total army (12-15 divisions in 1941).

But to answer your question.... playing the AI you should be able "effectively crush" the enemy using anything you build - massively or otherwise.

 

[Saltynuts]

Haha Commander, I know I routinely take your ideas and morph them into crazy monstrosities. But I just love trying things out and I like your ideas. Particularly the puppeting things - my puppets in asia I'm pretty sure alone could not crush national and communist china on their own. But I might need to bring in some units if I chose to attack Japan.

 

[Saltynuts]

Thanks guys!

 

[Saltynuts]

By the way, used to when I puppet a country it would cause me 5% dissent - now it seems like its only 2.5% - anything changed that might have caused that?

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

By the way, used to when I puppet a country it would cause me 5% dissent - now it seems like its only 2.5% - anything changed that might have caused that?

Small puppets cause only half the dissent.

 

[Saltynuts]

Ah, I see Pang. Eventually I'm going to liberate Russia, and take the massive 30% hit. Probably after I've taken the British Isles and then once I've gotten that dissent back down to zero start my assault on the US.

By the way, which is typically easiest way to start your attack on US, landing wise? I would guess land up in Canada somewhere, then make your way down, but not idea since I've never even tried it.

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

By the way, which is typically easiest way to start your attack on US, landing wise? I would guess land up in Canada somewhere, then make your way down, but not idea since I've never even tried it.

Canada seems the obvious choice as you will be at war with it. You can unload your 50+ Mot+ and then declare war onto the USA. That is very convient, also because the industrial centre of the USA during the 1940ies is located there.

If prior to your invasion the war with the USA starts it may not make much of a difference where you open your invasion. It may be the east coast of Canada, it may be from the southeast, it may be from the south west or even from Alaska, but that should happen once winter is gone. It is freezing cold up there.

 

[Saltynuts]

Thanks Pang. Any reason not to go from Mexico (if U.S. already at war with me)? I figure the U.S. would not have troops there, overcoming the few mexincan troops on landing should be super easy, and at least as long as I stick to the coast there should not be too much attrition.

Thanks!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Any reason not to go from Mexico (if U.S. already at war with me)?

There are no strong reasons not to go that way. I estimate that the pros and cons of the different angles of attack depend more on the concrete case you are confronted with than something that could be said in general.

There are 3 things that can be said in general.

1. Aviod losing troops during transport.
2. Minimize Attrition, especially due to desert or winter in subatric climate in high mountains or Alaska and Canada.
3. Reduce the industry of the USA soon, that way they will produce less you need to defeat later.

 

[Saltynuts]

Got it. Thanks Pang!

 

[Commander666]

Haha Commander, I know I routinely take your ideas and morph them into crazy monstrosities.

I don't doubt you take ideas and "morph them into crazy monstrosities." as you say.

HOWEVER, if you will allege that I have made statements, then have the decency to start with factually quoting me - instead of blurting out a bunch of unverified and false impressions as you might have formed reading Forum. This is second time you alleged something to me without any quote to substantiate it.

To be clear, I really don't care you mentioning my nickname in your Forum discussions attached to your views. If you wish a discussion with me, please quote me to establish an accurate basis for discussion first.

EXAMPLE: In my view there is a huge difference between you publishing "I know the Commander is a fan" and publishing "Many people or some people are a fan". I want you to know that your personal comments actually upset me because they are not only attached to want is not true - but actually are totally the opposite of what I am a fan of. I have tried to make it most clear, that in my opinion any "mass unit building strategy" (especially cavalry) is very poor strategy. However, some people build mass militia to see if they can still win (I imagine that must be the ultimate challenge) so please play your game as you wish. Just don't attribute me as your inspiration because in that case you have completely missed what I tried to inspire in you earlier.

 

[PouetVL]

I actually have a game started as a test one with HEAVY CALVARY in mind. my Build order was aimed at standard 45 Infantry/HQ with ART + 9 mountain + ART + 1 Serial line of ARM around 1938 so maybe less than 10 ARM around Barbarossa and the rest would be Cavalry Units. Arm would only be used to Breach the line and cavalry would swoop in.
My main fear was and still is, How well Am I gonna be able to kill units in SU before 1941. If I can rush SU as usual and trigger the Bitter peace Event, Cavalry will do good in Africa and Asia for sure. Gonna build Different stack of Cavalry with different kind of brigades for specific region. Normal one for centrer africa, SP Art as main core, ART for China if japan dont get them.
For Poland I aim at 6 ARM, 45 INF, 9 Mountain, 45 Cavalry

**my Idea behind this tactic was that Calavry in the game is strong in 1939 and 1940 where I actually fight strong odds, can be created from january 1936, Fast nbough to encircle and overrun.
But my main reason is that they need 0 upgrade!

 

[Pang Bingxun]

Cavalry will do good in Africa and Asia for sure.

In desert cavalry is slower than infantry. Its fighting values are weaker than Inf1941 aswell.

**my Idea behind this tactic was that Calavry in the game is strong in 1939 and 1940 where I actually fight strong odds,

There is some truth to it, but it does not seem to be too true for germany. Germany has Mot1941 in late 1939. So it is more correct to say that cavalry is strong till 1939. In 1940 Mot1941-SpArt1940 is preferable to semimot Cav-SpArt1940. It is 30% faster, it has about 39% better toughness, about 61% better defensiveness and given how stacking penalty applies the cavalry would need about 6% more tc to match its firepower. Cavalry might be might be interesting for Canada trying to attack the USA in early 1939. It has some merits in the wars prior to 1940. But somewhen in 1940 most human player nations accomplish the availabilty of something better that effectively renders cavalry obsolete for the main battle line. So why aim for it in the first line? Sure, it is cheaper than Mot especially as no upgrading cost will have to be paid because no upgrade is available. That however seems a bit short-sighted.

 

[PouetVL]

Declared war on Soviet may 1 1940 with my cavalry, I could conquer all SU but I was lacking at least 50 cavalry to be as effective as usual. If I restart another game like that, would start building them in 1936 ASAP so I can get more and would not develop INFRA as much at start... Of course you could still continue making obselete units in 1940 but I dont see the point. Will restart a game with Cav and SP art only eventually i think. Kept some non brigaded cavalry out there and there were quite useless.