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Jayavarman

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Originally posted by Sonny


Yeah, I do it all the time.:)

When it is my turn to rule the world I am going to change it so that the centuries start with zero so that the 1300s WILL be the 13th century.:)
You got some ambitious plans there. Anyways, with the player in control of a powerful Empire not yet ravaged by the Seljuks, I shouldn't think that it would fall. Of course, with the AI, it may be another story... one that is quite sad.:(
 

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You got some ambitious plans there. Anyways, with the player in control of a powerful Empire not yet ravaged by the Seljuks, I shouldn't think that it would fall. Of course, with the AI, it may be another story... one that is quite sad.

Yeah, I agree, that it is sad. However, pure historical faction will love it, u know they say, that nothing must change if player r not playing it, and limited if player is playing that nation.
 

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Originally posted by Phillip V

You got some ambitious plans there. ........

Yeah, and I am behind in the schedule. Thought by now it would have been my turn to rule the world, but lots of others are in line ahead of me.:D :(
 

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I think that battles are not everything in history. In the time of CK Western Europe experienced a lot of innovations: the pikemen, the crossbow, the gun, modernization of economy after the plague, English Franciscians planted the first roots of modern science, etc.. I am wondering wether Byzantium because of its centralized structure would have been able for innovations. If not they would have lost anyway.
 

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As Byzantium, the player should ideally be too busy dealing with internal problems to guard his quickly shrinking borders. As in real life. Good ole' feudalism at its best.
 

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Originally posted by iwannhs
Greek historians i have read all agree that the empire fell because it had lived for more than a millenium and its nobles thought that it was going to last forever nomatter what.

Thats an interesting idea. I believe it's also worth pointing out that Constantine IX Monomachus' decomissioning of 50,000 troops in eastern anatolia, many undoubtedly veteran, had more than a little to do with Manzikert even occurring.
 

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Originally posted by Vlad Gauls Bane


Thats an interesting idea. I believe it's also worth pointing out that Constantine IX Monomachus' decomissioning of 50,000 troops in eastern anatolia, many undoubtedly veteran, had more than a little to do with Manzikert even occurring.

Sigh, that was one of the most major screw ups of the entire history of the empire. Those were crack troops perhaps the best in the entire empire.
 

Jayavarman

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It was stupid emperors that caused the decline of Byzantium. Of course, we won't have to worry about that in the game 'cuz we will assume the imperial purple.:D
 

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It was stupid emperors that caused the decline of Byzantium. Of course, we won't have to worry about that in the game 'cuz we will assume the imperial purple.

Amen!:D
 

bgibbard

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But will you even be ABLE to play the Byzantines? I was under the impression that the only selectable dynasties will be Catholic (presumably meaning Latin rite). So unless your are playing some equivalent of the Courtenays post 4th Crusade. I doubt you will have the option. (Which may be disappointing, but makes considerable sense in game terms, given the orientation towards modelling the kinds of situations "feudal" type dynasties have to deal with. Pronoia are really not very much like fiefs, although you occasionally see them described as if they were).
 

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Originally posted by bgibbard
But will you even be ABLE to play the Byzantines? I was under the impression that the only selectable dynasties will be Catholic (presumably meaning Latin rite). So unless your are playing some equivalent of the Courtenays post 4th Crusade. I doubt you will have the option. (Which may be disappointing, but makes considerable sense in game terms, given the orientation towards modelling the kinds of situations "feudal" type dynasties have to deal with. Pronoia are really not very much like fiefs, although you occasionally see them described as if they were).

I think the term Christian was use instead of Catholic. So Byzantium should be playable.:)
 

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Originally posted by Sonny


I think the term Christian was use instead of Catholic. So Byzantium should be playable.:)

I wouldn't be surprised if it's dropped however, as it seems to me that playing it should be almost as different as playing a Muslim state. Also one of the stated reasons why they want to keep the Merchant Republics and Muslims out was to keep the focus on Crusading, but "Byzantium" also didn't go in for crusades.
 

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Originally posted by Sonny


I think the term Christian was use instead of Catholic. So Byzantium should be playable.:)

Gaaah, my memory is going fast!! You're absolutely right, I was mis-remembering, it DOES say Christian, not Catholic, in the Paradox announcement.
 

Jayavarman

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Originally posted by Wulfram


I wouldn't be surprised if it's dropped however, as it seems to me that playing it should be almost as different as playing a Muslim state. Also one of the stated reasons why they want to keep the Merchant Republics and Muslims out was to keep the focus on Crusading, but "Byzantium" also didn't go in for crusades.
The better not or I'm going to organize a mass protest....:mad:
 

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Originally posted by bgibbard


Gaaah, my memory is going fast!! You're absolutely right, I was mis-remembering, it DOES say Christian, not Catholic, in the Paradox announcement.

Me too. Every once in a while I have to go back and read the preview/interview to separate what was actually said from what we have made up on this forum.:)
 

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On another note.

About the armies of Byzantium beating the turks this could (sadly or not) never happen. Stave the off, yes. The problem is that light archers on horseback was the A-bomb of the middle ages. No weapon could beat it if all else was equal. You simply have to stack the deck very much in your favor to beat them.

War is about mobility, attacks and defence. Lightly armored and on horseback gives you superior mobility (Compared to walking, or riding while armored). Bows give you superior attacks (compared to all kinds of melee weapons, that cannot reach you)
Defence is lacking, but easily compensated for with speed in evasion and range of attacks.
In short you have to rely on bad leadership to score a decisive victory against horse-archer nomads. Else you cannot kill them, as they run away, and you cannot take their homeland, as it runs away;)
If you have good leadership you can make feints and use tricks that might fool the nomads into bad moves, but history would say that a gullible leader is a bad one, bringing us back to point one.

The only upside to this is that nomads basically need good leadership to win any decisive battles on their own, as they are quite inclined to loot, pillage and feud about loot or old scores if without strong leadership, and discipline is necessary for sieges.

Still, the WRE fell because of Attilas hordes, and the ERE were briefly saved by Timur Lenks hordes. Hordes simply put are the movers and shakers, but not hoarders:p Nomad empires are the exception, not the rule, and thus historians have looked down their collective noses upon them, and therefore their military superiority is still rarely acnowledged, which I guess is my point with this rambling, that the Byzantines would loose the anatolian lands sooner or later, as the land was needed by 'immortal' armies and their herds.
 

Jayavarman

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Anatolia could have been saved by diplomacy. Byzantium usually just payed off threatening barabarians. However, the foolish Emperor at the time, pissed off the Seljuks and Manzikert was what happened.
I hardly think the Turks were "invinsible." A strong empire under a strong emperor just does not suddenly fall to a bunch of barabaric nomads.
 

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What, they were held off within an ever growing Seljuk Empire?


You couldn't avoid the Turks. Not diplomacy, nor good leadership, nor better armies could save the Byzantines.


And one more thing. If Byzantines fell because of internal fighting and bad leaders, How about Trebizond? Or Greece, Bulgars, Serbs, Transylvania, Wallachia, Moldovia, Mamelukes, Algiers, Georgians, other Turkish nations in Anatolia, you get the point...

The Turks just had better techniques in fighting wars.

The Crusaders could only force their way with numerical superiority...

The Byzantines did not fall because some emperor had bad blood with another noble, these are childish legends...
 

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The Byzantines did not fall because some emperor had bad blood with another noble, these are childish legends...

Truth, however, if Byzantines had won Manizert, all it would been delaying Turks. The legend is true in the way that Byzantines fell earlier.