Can Africa Be Made Interesting?

[Akela]

You should also be able to build infrastructure, ports, air bases, AA, and forts in the territory of your puppets using your own IC. Not just radar. It's frustrating that you can't build air bases in Manchukuo as Japan, for instance.

I've been able to do that in Singapore as Britain.

I'm pretty sure this is a DLC-only feature. If you have Together For Victory, you can build in any subjects that are Colony status or better (I.E. not Dominions). With Death or Dishonor fascists have special subject types, and they can build in their subject's territory at any level. If you're playing the base-game only, then you can only build in territory you directly own.

Mostly it works nicely, but radar is limited by the subject's technology, not the overlord's, so with an AI subject you'll often only be able to build level-one radar (and thus have terrible coverage).

 

[Tempestra]

losing Africa doesn't really hurt Italy .

Historically accurate, though. Both Libya and even moreso Ethiopia were money sinks for Rome.

 

[hkrommel]

Historically accurate, though. Both Libya and even moreso Ethiopia were money sinks for Rome.

That's actually not accurate at all. North Africa kept Allied resources tied up that could have been used elsewhere and delayed the inevitable invasion of Italy. Defending Italy was a far larger resource drain for the Germans. Once Italy was invaded the Italians essentially became dead weight to the Axis, and Germany had to siphon off tons of resources from the Eastern Front in order to keep that front relatively stable, compared to the relatively minor commitment to North Africa.

You also need to consider the diplomatic and political implications. Do you think the Italians would be more or less likely to funnel resources to the Eastern Front if the Axis is driven from North Africa? Italy, contrary to popular belief, was not actually dead weight until the Allies landed on the peninsula and the government collapsed. There was immense political capital and propaganda value Rommel and the DAK had. Those are not minor considerations.

 

[Secret Master]

That's actually not accurate at all. North Africa kept Allied resources tied up that could have been used elsewhere and delayed the inevitable invasion of Italy. Defending Italy was a far larger resource drain for the Germans. Once Italy was invaded the Italians essentially became dead weight to the Axis, and Germany had to siphon off tons of resources from the Eastern Front in order to keep that front relatively stable, compared to the relatively minor commitment to North Africa.

I'd also like to point out that with Italy still in possession of Libya, Egypt is simply not safe. The British cannot relax their commitment there if the Italians are still sitting in Tobruk, as it hurts Britain more to lose Egypt than it hurt Italy to just contest the area. Once North Africa has no Axis presence, Egypt is a lot safer. If Britain doesn't feel threatened, she has the flexibility to do other things, and not just invade Italy (although that's fun).

 

[hkrommel]

If Britain doesn't feel threatened, she has the flexibility to do other things,

IIRC once North Africa was taken the British significantly stepped up efforts against the Japanese since the Italians were confined to coastal defense at that point.

 

[Enriador]

I think dividing the European colonies in Africa like the Iron Curtain mod does is the best way to improve Africa's potential.

EDIT: It's not the Modern Day mod, obviously.

 

[Secret Master]

IIRC once North Africa was taken the British significantly stepped up efforts against the Japanese since the Italians were confined to coastal defense at that point.

I've seen humans do that, too.

In all honesty, in our MP group, we consider North Africa and the Middle East to be a critical front. In many of our games, the better the Axis does there, the better they do overall.

And in HOI4, there's a specific rule that makes it even better for the Axis to make progress in the theater: you can't daisy chain supply convoys via multiple ports. This means that if Gibraltar is contested or taken by the Axis, and if the Suez is taken or contested by the Axis, then the Allies can't supply anything in the Med, even if Egypt and Alexandria are still in British hands. That means Malta dies, Cyprus dies, and any current invasion of Sicily or Italy dies. And no invading Italy until the Med is opened.

I liberated Italy like this one time as Germany, and in our current game, the Axis doesn't have to devote much manpower or resources to covering the ports of the Med. We have Britain bottled up in Egypt with Gibraltar open to the Axis and German troops sitting on the east bank of the Suez. The only reason we have any garrisons on ports at all is that Greece still controls Crete, so they can supply invasions since their capital is in the Med.

 

[Tempestra]

That's actually not accurate at all. North Africa kept Allied resources tied up...

I wasn't talking about strategy during the war, I just meant that Italy never made any money out of either of its big colonies. Whether they provided some kind of strategic glacis is another matter, but the Italian economy shouldn't suffer from the loss of either colony.

However looking back I realise I sort of assumed that people talking about "hurt(ing) Italy" meant economic/resource damage, not broader strategic disadvantage. So that's on me.

 

[Aszhalinde]

I'm pretty sure this is a DLC-only feature. If you have Together For Victory, you can build in any subjects that are Colony status or better (I.E. not Dominions). With Death or Dishonor fascists have special subject types, and they can build in their subject's territory at any level. If you're playing the base-game only, then you can only build in territory you directly own.

That would explain it. I don't have the DLCs.

 

[CplKatie]

I just hope they fix Africa in the next patch. I just cannot stomache playing full manual to retake and defend Africa in my games. I usually just make Libya and give them the land I take and have their AI defend it once I'm done, but my god its a long slow process manually taking every province cause the battleplans refuse to work in africa when you have battleplans going on 2 continents at once.

 

[Dioj]

I would agree, africa tends to be very useless in HOI4. Maybe a dlc for this?

 

[Killerrabbit]

Best way to add some good gameplay here would be to add possibilities of colonial uprisings, that can be funded by other nations, and is countered by committing troops or resources. (not like current coups which has no counter)

This basically works both pre and during WW2, while really springing to the forefront if a Soviet-Allied war is looming.

 

[Tempestra]

Best way to add some good gameplay here would be to add possibilities of colonial uprisings

This wasn't really a thing in the time period of the game, though.

 

[Killerrabbit]

This wasn't really a thing in the time period of the game, though.

Many africans revolted during WW1, which could easily happen again, though there was an dual track where they hoped to gain political rights. Let's say you slam shut that door and exploit them more to gain more resources for waging war... Yeah, likely it would happen again.

Also, not the full list but these were major:

1925–1927: The Great Syrian Revolt
1926–1927: Communist rebellion, Indonesia
1928–1931: Rebellion against british rule in India
1929: Igbo Women's War, Nigeria mass protests
1930–1931: Viet Minh rebellion in Vietnam
1930–1934: The Saya San Rebellion against british rule in Burma
1936–1939: Arab revolt in Palestine
1940-1941: Uprising against french and japanese in Vietnam
1945–1949: Indonesian Revolution
1945: Vietnam Revolution

Post 1950.. too many to count...

 

[Wasted Shampoo]

1925–1927: The Great Syrian Revolt
1926–1927: Communist rebellion, Indonesia
1928–1931: Rebellion against british rule in India
1929: Igbo Women's War, Nigeria mass protests
1930–1931: Viet Minh rebellion in Vietnam
1930–1934: The Saya San Rebellion against british rule in Burma
1936–1939: Arab revolt in Palestine
1940-1941: Uprising against french and japanese in Vietnam
1945–1949: Indonesian Revolution
1945: Vietnam Revolution

Post 1950.. too many to count...

A WW2 game without the Igbo women’s protest?
I must admit that you have trolled us so bad! Well done.

 

[Tempestra]

Many africans revolted during WW1, which could easily happen again

Why do you think, historically, that it didn't?

Also, not the full list but these were major...

1936–1939: Arab revolt in Palestine
1940-1941: Uprising against french and japanese in Vietnam
1945–1949: Indonesian Revolution
1945: Vietnam Revolution

At the risk of seeming obvious, none of these are in Africa.

Post 1950.. too many to count...

Hence why I said during the time period of the game.

 

[Killerrabbit]

Well, HOI4 is a sandbox game with historical context so I wouldn't imagine that the revolts happen historically at the same places without any cause/effect mechanism.

List is just to show that colonial uprisings happen all the time. They aren't dependent on it being 1920, 1939 or 1950. It's about the conditions in place, the expectations and the policies.

Expectations were great that political instead of violent struggle would eventually pay off. But that was because it was teased and dangled in front of them. Exploit the colonies excessively and there will always be a return to violent struggle.

 

[Killerrabbit]

A WW2 game without the Igbo women’s protest?
I must admit that you have trolled us so bad! Well done.

Hate the game, not the 'playa

 

[Tempestra]

Well, HOI4 is a sandbox game with historical context so I wouldn't imagine that the revolts happen historically at the same places without any cause/effect mechanism.

List is just to show that colonial uprisings happen all the time. They aren't dependent on it being 1920, 1939 or 1950. It's about the conditions in place, the expectations and the policies.

Expectations were great that political instead of violent struggle would eventually pay off. But that was because it was teased and dangled in front of them. Exploit the colonies excessively and there will always be a return to violent struggle.

Well that's all true, but nonetheless, it seems the period between 1930 and the 1950s was notable for the lack of armed uprisings in Africa, even on a small scale. Do you think this is just random chance, or do you think there was some kind of factor / combination of factors at work - and if so, how to simulate them?

 

[Oddb@ll]

Well, HOI4 is a sandbox game with historical context so I wouldn't imagine that the revolts happen historically at the same places without any cause/effect mechanism.

List is just to show that colonial uprisings happen all the time. They aren't dependent on it being 1920, 1939 or 1950. It's about the conditions in place, the expectations and the policies.

Expectations were great that political instead of violent struggle would eventually pay off. But that was because it was teased and dangled in front of them. Exploit the colonies excessively and there will always be a return to violent struggle.

Well one of the conditions in place which was a factor was that the colonial powers post ww2 were drained after fighting a long and resource consuming war. Their weakened state prevented them from quelling rebellious movements.

The emphasis is on "post ww2" though. I would argue that decolonization in effect WAS dependent on it being 1920, 1939 or 1950.