Can a Merchant Republic get a king title?

[LordHarromont]

Hey

I started as Ireland in 767 and converted my tribes to a Merchant Republic. This is my first time playing as a one of those.

Now, I thought I read that while Merchant Republics are playable, normal republics never are. And Merchant Republics are always a Duke level title.

If I, as the leader of the Merchant Republic, obtain a King level title from somewhere, do I automatically lose since I now have an unplayable Government type? In a previous game where I was an emperor, I did give a vassal Merchant Republic a king level title and I recall it changing to a normal republic governmental type, which I repeat, is supposed to be unplayable.

Did I misunderstand something? What would happen in this scenario? Can I never grow beyond a Duke Level title?

I am playing on Iron Man mode, so I can't just give it try and see what happens without risking losing everything.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

I actually don't know if you can play a republic with just one county - because there is no line of succession in republics (cities). So I guess you need at least a duchy to become a Grand Mayor.
However I do know that you may create any title-level you want as MR. You can be a King and above if you like

Only thing that would produce a game over for you would be a case where you have no costal county left

 

[LordHarromont]

Thank you for the reply. The problem has been solved.

 

[BuddyLove]

Yes, but beware-- as King and Emperor republics with mixed republic and feudal vassals, plus the other four patrician families things can get very out of hand very quickly with factions-- you have a steep penalty from all your feudal vassals and they have more levies than you.

 

[Masternachos]

Hey

I started as Ireland in 767 and converted my tribes to a Merchant Republic. This is my first time playing as a one of those.

Now, I thought I read that while Merchant Republics are playable, normal republics never are. And Merchant Republics are always a Duke level title.

If I, as the leader of the Merchant Republic, obtain a King level title from somewhere, do I automatically lose since I now have an unplayable Government type? In a previous game where I was an emperor, I did give a vassal Merchant Republic a king level title and I recall it changing to a normal republic governmental type, which I repeat, is supposed to be unplayable.

Did I misunderstand something? What would happen in this scenario? Can I never grow beyond a Duke Level title?

I am playing on Iron Man mode, so I can't just give it try and see what happens without risking losing everything.

The "Duke" part is that a [coastal] republic does not become a merchant republic until it becomes a duchy. So it's not that a republic MUST be Duke-tier to be a merchant republic, it's that a republic must be AT LEAST Duke-tier to be a merchant republic. (As for what happened when you gave that merchant republic a king tier, did it become a regular republic immediately? Because if it wasn't immediate, what probably happened was that the AI moved its capital- every duchy, kingdom, and empire has a default capital, and the AI has a habit of moving it there if possible... even if that capital is inland and will make the merchant republic a regular republic. And if a merchant republic holds any castle holdings and decides to make that their capital, then the same situation happens. AI merchant republics don't seem to be too concerned with staying a merchant republic, which is annoying.)

Venice is a King-tier merchant republic in some starts, isn't it?

 

[LordHarromont]

Yes, but beware-- as King and Emperor republics with mixed republic and feudal vassals, plus the other four patrician families things can get very out of hand very quickly with factions-- you have a steep penalty from all your feudal vassals and they have more levies than you.

Thank you, I am aware of the danger. Still, the +-7000 levy you get from your grand palace helps a lot in that regard. Not only that, I have a desmere of 10 right now and ludicrous amount of gold (thank you crusades). I am almost sure all my vassals could rebel all at once and I could win that fight. But yea, if I expand further, that will become a problem. I am currently trying to provoke my feudal vassals into rebelling. Than i can revoke their titles and give it to the mayor of the local city, maybe even promote him to duke to deal with vassal limit? Hopefully that doesn't immediately create a third rival republic. I'll try to keep them away from the coast to prevent just that.
By the end of this game, feudalism shall have been reduced to simple baronies and all of Britannia shall be a republic


Oh and discovered a neat little trick to get almost infinite trade posts. You see, I accidentally create a second rival republic at one point. So now every few years I declare war on them to rob them of one of their posts. I currently have 15 trade posts while I am only supposed to have 7. Its great xD

The "Duke" part is that a [coastal] republic does not become a republic until it becomes a duchy. So it's not that a republic MUST be Duke-tier to be a merchant republic, it's that a republic must be AT LEAST Duke-tier to be a merchant republic. (As for what happened when you gave that merchant republic a king tier, did it become a regular republic immediately? Because if it wasn't immediate, what probably happened was that the AI moved its capital- every duchy, kingdom, and empire has a default capital, and the AI has a habit of moving it there if possible... even if that capital is inland and will make the merchant republic a regular republic. And if a merchant republic holds any castle holdings and decides to make that their capital, then the same situation happens. AI merchant republics don't seem to be too concerned with staying a merchant republic, which is annoying.)

Venice is a King-tier merchant republic in some starts, isn't it?

I think it happened instantaneously, but I could be mistaken.

 

[Brian Bóroimhe]

Oh and discovered a neat little trick to get almost infinite trade posts. You see, I accidentally create a second rival republic at one point. So now every few years I declare war on them to rob them of one of their posts. I currently have 15 trade posts while I am only supposed to have 7. Its great xD

An even better way is to just farm your own patrician families. When a patrician family is wiped out their trade posts are distributed among the other families and a new family generated to them. So long as they have at least 4 you're guaranteed 1 of them. Also has the benefit of keeping other families weak and of little threat. You can wind up many times over your trade post limit doing both of these.

 

[LordHarromont]

An even better way is to just farm your own patrician families. When a patrician family is wiped out their trade posts are distributed among the other families and a new family generated to them. So long as they have at least 4 you're guaranteed 1 of them. Also has the benefit of keeping other families weak and of little threat. You can wind up many times over your trade post limit doing both of these.

Wiping out a whole family is easier said than done. I'd need to do more than 5 successful successful assassinations in a row. Unless I don't care about the massive penalty of being known as a murderer, that's just not feasible. I'd love to get some of trade posts from my own patrician families that are blocking my own routes, but I just don't see how. Assassination seems like a very risky business in an iron man mode.

Edit: I just checked and their is indeed one family that could be taken out with just two assassinations. The problem is that having their 3 posts distributed makes the patrician families that are already more powerful than I am comfortable with even more so.

 

[eastcoastceojam]

Unless I don't care about the massive penalty of being known as a murderer, that's just not feasible. I'd love to get some of trade posts from my own patrician families that are blocking my own routes, but I just don't see how. Assassination seems like a very risky business in an iron man mode.

Murdering fellow patricians is definitely the way to play the Merchant Republic game if you want those trade posts. If you get caught, the "Known Murderer" penalty hurts, a straight -10 with the whole world, for the rest of your rulers life. But if you keep murdering, the opinion penalty doesn't stack, so you won't get any worse than the -10.

The "Dishonorable" and "Attempted Murder of Close Kin" maluses do stack. However, you only get "Dishonorable" if you get discovered plotting. If you are careful who you invite to the plot (no Drunkards, etc.), your chances of being discovered are minimized. (The full list of plot discovery traits is here: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Assassination). And the "Attempted Murder of Kin" goes away once you wipe out a fellow patricians entire dynasty.

 

[Masternachos]

Murdering fellow patricians is definitely the way to play the Merchant Republic game if you want those trade posts. If you get caught, the "Known Murderer" penalty hurts, a straight -10 with the whole world, for the rest of your rulers life. But if you keep murdering, the opinion penalty doesn't stack, so you won't get any worse than the -10.

The "Dishonorable" and "Attempted Murder of Close Kin" maluses do stack. However, you only get "Dishonorable" if you get discovered plotting.

So get caught plotting to murder twice, double penalty; get caught ACTUALLY COMMITTING MURDER twice, only one penalty. And they're the same -10, so people will hate someone who's plotted to murder twice MORE than they'll hate a known serial killer.

 

[Duskwave]

Getting caught doing it also gives dishonorable, so success isn't less of an issue, it's just the same penalty as being caught attempting.

 

[Brian Bóroimhe]

Wiping out a whole family is easier said than done. I'd need to do more than 5 successful successful assassinations in a row.

It's actually incredibly easy once you get into the swing of it.
You just gotta realise that espionage stat is the single most important one for patrician. And with seduction focus you can make lots of high intrigue lovers to send into rival courts. With intrigue stat in the mid to high 20s+, master seducer, medium sized realm, and an agent in your target court you'll probably have a few thousand % plot power. Trust me, 5 successful assassinations in a row will seem trivial..
You can also join the assassin's or something for even more of a boost.

It's a little gamey, but when a new patrician spawns you can also hobble their family by either marrying the patrician to a bride in their 30s or betroth them to an infant. They will be unlikely to sire a large family so you don't have as many murders to commit.

Bonus points if they have 1 son before menopause, you can murder the father and then leave the infant in charge of the family until they've built 4 trade posts (children can't become doge).

Also this:

The "Dishonorable" and "Attempted Murder of Close Kin" maluses do stack. However, you only get "Dishonorable" if you get discovered plotting. If you are careful who you invite to the plot (no Drunkards, etc.), your chances of being discovered are minimized. (The full list of plot discovery traits is here: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Assassination). And the "Attempted Murder of Kin" goes away once you wipe out a fellow patricians entire dynasty.

You really don't want gregarious, honest, drunkards anywhere near your murder plots.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Plotting is for sissis
Antagonize them and when they are your rival, the chances are high that they challenge you to a duel. When you win, and of course you win because you have lots of items, you may slay them without the ruthless/merciless modifiers

 

[LordHarromont]

Huh. I have rarely played the 'intrigue' game in any of of my games before. So far the only use I have seen for intrigue was discovering other people's plots.

I'll try it out.

 

[LordHarromont]

Plotting is for sissis
Antagonize them and when they are your rival, the chances are high that they challenge you to a duel. When you win, and of course you win because you have lots of items, you may slay them without the ruthless/merciless modifiers

Having a higher combat modifier makes you more likely to win duels. I know from personal experience that's not garenteed, At least on a normal battlefield. And every time one of my guys dies I need to invest money to win the next election.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Having a higher combat modifier makes you more likely to win duels. I know from personal experience that's not garenteed, At least on a normal battlefield. And every time one of my guys dies I need to invest money to win the next election.

true. but there is also no garentee that you survive the 12% plot power murder plot...

 

[LordHarromont]

true. but there is also no garentee that you survive the 12% plot power murder plot...

Sure there is. You just tell them to stop plotting.

I don't think I have ever been assassinated with the 'stop all plots' command on, combined with a not terrible intrigue score. I have lost a fair amount of battle field duels against inferior enemies.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

Sure there is. You just tell them to stop plotting.

I don't think I have ever been assassinated with the 'stop all plots' command on, combined with a not terrible intrigue score. I have lost a fair amount of battle field duels against inferior enemies.

Well. You probably never played as vassal in a realm full of non-believers

 

[LordHarromont]

Well. You probably never played as vassal in a realm full of non-believers

I once played a loyal vassal to an emperor that converted to Lollard Herresy in a realm full of Christians.

 

[Lycrist Katkiller]

I play openly Zoroastrian in the Sunni Caliphat... I got murdered a lot in the beginning (also because I play with Families AI only, so my direct liege is my heir).
And as soon as I overthrew my Emir (Duke) liege the Caliph and his many wifes started to plot against me as well...

The is a reason why I called plotting the sissi way - If you are a man, you fight duels to the death, if you are a little girl, you plot (especially because pathetic men refuse duel challenges by women and there is no penatly for doing it)