Campaign to bring back ARMOURED CARS!!!

[TheRomanRuler]

Well, HOI3 does have a mod where Panzer 4 is unlockable unit like "armor" from vanilla game that then gets upgrades it got in RL. It is pretty awesome but due to HOI3`s design amount of micro it needed was far too much.

Also... what game is that?!

 

[George Parr]

Theyre pretty hard to hit. From the Pak36s ive used in sims, and taking at look at them at museums, id imagine a Panhard is pretty darned hard to tag. Plus a Pak36 without APHE, will just go right through. If it doesnt hit a crew member, or the ammo with spall or the shell itself, its not going to stop it. Ive read accounts to the same effect. Meanwhile, it can return fire with a pretty accurate MG being mounted (no recoil), and spray down an ATG. The gunshield is pretty easily penetrated, if you can spot the ATG.

The advantage to an armored car over a light tank or mechanized infantry is cost, road and off road ability. A Panhard is a contemporary of the Pz1 and 2. Its twice as fast offroad. Has the same or better firepower. Has mostly the same armor other than frontally, but is half the cost per unit. Mechanized infantry, true mechanized infantry, is 3-4 years later in technology and operational doctrine. An Sdkfz 251 is going to lose big time against an armored car, and its infantry squad, even with later weaponry like PIATs, Panzerfausts etc, are going to have some serious problems dismounting, then taking on something that already has a bearing on them.

From the sim that had the video I posted. It was pretty easy to get the advantage on a Panzer I, Panzer IIc, Panzer IIIf, and Stug IIIb. Youre faster. Youre smaller. You have a 37mm gun that is just as good as the Pz38(t) (which is your nemesis) L.70 and you have the better offroad ability and higher mounted gun allowing you to remain hull down and keeping everything but your commander/gunner safe.

So what can an AC do that a light tank cant? Change positions rapidly. Adapt to more situations. You get more for the same cost. Fills all the roles a light tank would in addition to what it does better.

And I totally didnt think it was a troll. Thats a legitimate question.

The Panhard 178 did not have a 37mm gun. The first design had a new 20mm gun, which ended up not being developed. Plans for a short 37mm gun existed, but it wasn't chosen because it lacked the ability to pierce enough armor. They ended up using a 25mm gun, which, by the way had the same weakness against the early German tanks as you describe for the German AT-guns against the Panhard: it could pierce the armor but wouldn't do any damage inside. There was a new version that was produced from 1945 on which had a bigger gun (47mm), alongside some earlier prototypes, but that's not really the same timeframe anymore, and it wasn't really used during the war.

Beyond that, the Panhard cost 275k Franc per hull, more than some of the French light tanks of the period, so it's not like it was cheap. It also sounds rather odd that you grant the Panhard good cross-country ability, as that was considered one of its biggest weaknesses, in addition to the turret taking ages to turn, which is not a good thing while in battle. It worked well on the road, but had limited abilities beyond it, meaning you couldn't just run for the nearest cover if there was so much as a slight bump in front of you. Another disadvantage was that it was rivetted, which is rather dangerous for the people inside, even if the armor doesn't get pierced or if the shot goes right through the car.

The idea of mechanised infantry being a later development isn't really true either. Pretty much everything they used had been around right from the get go. It wasn't an issue of development, it was an issue of producing enough to mechanise all the units.

 

[jamesd]

I certainly think that armoured cars were built in sufficient numbers to warrant inclusion in HOI4, but to me there's a question about how they fit into divisional templates. Most armoured cars tended to be in mixed mot/mech recon units. For example the Germans included 1 or 2 AC companies in their panzer recon battalions along with 2-4 other companies (MC/Mot/Mech inf and support). The Russians also deployed them in mixed units as did the US. The Brits had some AC battalions, but not very many and those were mostly corps and army troops. From memory their armoured divisions included an AC battalion for a short period before they were changed over for light tanks. The infantry division recon battalions included some AC's mixed in with infantry in carriers and scout cars. The French DLM's included 48 AC's, but again they were only half a recon battalion with the other half being infantry. Despite the thousands of AC's used during the war, there were very few divisional templates that would include an AC battalion. Unless we want to get into the territory of a mech recon battalion requires X AC's and Y mech infantry equipment, I think that armoured cars should be abstracted into motorised and/or mechanised equipment.

 

[LostinSpice]

You raise a good point jamesd. However, perhaps we are taking armoured cars too literary? All equipment made is to some extent is an abstraction. Are medium tanks piled in your battalions just metal hulks or do these units also contain numerous support vehicles, HQs, armourers, mechanics, clerks, signalers, chiefs and quartermasters? Armoured car battalions would be just the same. Like tanks they are 'front of house' of a battalion, they are the embodiment of the unit and what role it means to us in the division. See an armoured car and you think - recon, shoot and scoot, see a heavy tank you think - headache - powerful attack and defense.

Having infantry mixed in with mech/ motorized would simply be reflected in the stats so that's not a problem. The fact infantry and other vehicles were mixed in shows how important the reconnaissance phase of the battle was - you wanted to dominate no man's land and capture prisoners and intel in what could be mini battles.

I suspect one of the first phases of land combat in HOI4 will be recon versus recon or a recon phase if you like. I'd like armoured cars to be there as I'd invest in mine so when I met an enemy who didn't bother I'd have the early advantage. Having recon units abstracted makes them forgettable!

 

[LostinSpice]

As the war progressed light tanks became less important, being relegated from the main attack role to reconnaissance then even training roles, whereas armoured cars continued to be used in the front line. It depended on the nation and it's capabilities of course. Late in the war Germany (due to doctrine and industrial hardship) kept it's armoured cars but removed their light lights from the front line (or converted them into SPGs) as it was found that the successor Panzer IIs (Luchs and Leopard) were under gunned, whereas armoured cars, Panzer IVs and Panthers could perform their own reconnaissance and have a fair chance of surviving. So perhaps a German doctrine should be medium tanks in the recon units? Would give their recon a good advantage, don't you think? But then again, without air superiority they could be sitting ducks....

Can we play the game now please? I can't wait!

 

[George Parr]

As the war progressed light tanks became less important, being relegated from the main attack role to reconnaissance then even training roles, whereas armoured cars continued to be used in the front line. It depended on the nation and it's capabilities of course. Late in the war Germany (due to doctrine and industrial hardship) kept it's armoured cars but removed their light lights from the front line (or converted them into SPGs) as it was found that the successor Panzer IIs (Luchs and Leopard) were under gunned, whereas armoured cars, Panzer IVs and Panthers could perform their own reconnaissance and have a fair chance of surviving. So perhaps a German doctrine should be medium tanks in the recon units? Would give their recon a good advantage, don't you think? But then again, without air superiority they could be sitting ducks....

That actually depends on the units. There were multiple different setups for a "Panzerspähkompanie". Armored cars were common in the early stages of the war, but by 1943 there were three different types around, one based on armored cars, one based on Panzer IIs and one based on SPWs. I do not think any medium tanks were ever supposed to be used in such a role. Meanwhile the Panzeraufklärungskompanien were based on motorcycles or unarmored cars.

Now, armored cars would be used in a (very) minor capacity outside of the tank-arm, being part of the recon-units of the infantry alongside bikes, motorcycles and horses. But with that sort of mix, having a genereic recon-unit for the infantry would probably work best, as it is quite clearly not one specific type.

 

[LostinSpice]

I agree German medium tanks probably weren't supposed to be used in the reconnaissance role but then again, many generals early in the war would not have considered light tanks in that role either.

Am I right in saying generic recon means in HOI4 that all recon is the same for every nation, or can they vary from country to country with research? I don't mean recon 1, 2 or 3 but with tanks you can vary manufacturing slightly by assigning different companies to production. I would assume recon would also be influenced by this?

Suggestion;

Again, Recon 1 could be as it is in the game - trucks, horses and motorcycles - whatever you like it to be.

Recon 2 and 3 could be as 1 the generic recon but with progressively better armoured cars attached, thus costing more but giving better bonuses.

So players could choose to make them or not, infantry divisions would likely keep recon 1 throughout the entire war and armoured divisions would benefit from recon 2 and 3. Players choice.

 

[jamesd]

You raise a good point jamesd. However, perhaps we are taking armoured cars too literary? All equipment made is to some extent is an abstraction. Are medium tanks piled in your battalions just metal hulks or do these units also contain numerous support vehicles, HQs, armourers, mechanics, clerks, signalers, chiefs and quartermasters? Armoured car battalions would be just the same. Like tanks they are 'front of house' of a battalion, they are the embodiment of the unit and what role it means to us in the division. See an armoured car and you think - recon, shoot and scoot, see a heavy tank you think - headache - powerful attack and defense.

Having infantry mixed in with mech/ motorized would simply be reflected in the stats so that's not a problem. The fact infantry and other vehicles were mixed in shows how important the reconnaissance phase of the battle was - you wanted to dominate no man's land and capture prisoners and intel in what could be mini battles.

I suspect one of the first phases of land combat in HOI4 will be recon versus recon or a recon phase if you like. I'd like armoured cars to be there as I'd invest in mine so when I met an enemy who didn't bother I'd have the early advantage. Having recon units abstracted makes them forgettable!

One of the other things I'm conscious of is computer performance. I modded HOI3 to add in an extra couple of unit types and, I think more importantly, to make more leader traits gainable - such as Offensive and Defensive. The result is a better game in my opinion, but one that crashes every hour or so when campaigns are raging, even with the additional download to stop crashes, while vanilla runs for a number of hours. Maybe we can have AC's separated out later in one of the expansions, but up front I'd like to see how the game runs before we add every additional piece of equipment under the sun. I'd also like to see artillery and AA broken into separate light and heavy categories before we add AC's, as I believe that distinction would add more to the game than adding AC's.

 

[The Balbinater]

so basically the only half-way decent armored unit of Italy is not in the game?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AB_41

"one of the best armored cars of its era".

some of you older guys may remember a Tibet AAR where a player made "armored yak" AC units to over run east Asia... so where on earth is a poor country going to get its armored units if AC's aren't in the game?

 

[LostinSpice]

I think the game will work just fine with a few ACs sprinkled into the mix! I really like the AB41! I live in Wales, can I have an armoured sheep?

Off topic here - and possibly worth it's own thread - is Artillery will be separated from combat and support, which I suspect not only will be smaller numbers but 'lighter' (frame, recoiless and occasionally caliber) to reflect being used by paratroopers etc... Also Podcat stated each advancement of artillery research will be considered a different type of artillery. Thus stopping massed produced artillery early in the war benefiting from instant upgrades as the game progresses.

Back with armoured cars...

 

[tommylotto]

so basically the only half-way decent armored unit of Italy is not in the game?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AB_41

"one of the best armored cars of its era".

some of you older guys may remember a Tibet AAR where a player made "armored yak" AC units to over run east Asia... so where on earth is a poor country going to get its armored units if AC's aren't in the game?

They came too late for the Italians, but the planned AB43 would have been cool.

It was to have a 47mm autoloading AT gun, and its wheels could be changed out to turn it into a freakin' armored train.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

They came too late for the Italians, but the German got to use them:

AB43 for the win. It had a 47mm autoloading AT gun, and its wheels could be changed out to turn it into a freakin' armored train.

It actually makes a lot of sense of being able to turn that into armored train. You could simply pull one of those behind the train and push one in front of the train, instead of having to load it up. It makes train convoy a little stronger and resources don`t have to be wasted into actual armored trains, those would not be worth it.

 

[Bugnr01]

So whats your intentions guys and girls? Adding a new tank branch for AC? How is their evolution integrated in the tank tech tree? Or are you going to split up the mech inf into APCs and ACs as two seperated branches (thats the way i would like to see it) and you are creating your mech inf by mixing up APCs with ACs brigards.

How should their stats be? Like light tanks with a mobility favor an solid ground but worse on mud, sand, snow aso. Should they be a little bit cheaper to produce because wells are easier to build and maintain than chains but the rest is the same?

 

[safe-keeper]

Well, HOI3 does have a mod where Panzer 4 is unlockable unit like "armor" from vanilla game that then gets upgrades it got in RL. It is pretty awesome but due to HOI3`s design amount of micro it needed was far too much.

Also... what game is that?!

Looks like War in the East. Brilliant game, if pretty micro-intensive at times. Think of it as HOI without the grand strategy bits like research and diplomacy, and instead with a deeper combat system. Surprisingly easy to learn, but can get pretty time-consuming.

Edit: herp-derp. Corrected freudian slip

 

[LordOfWar16]

Armored Cars are in, they are simply not an seperate unit since they were used in motorized and recon divisions rather than as an seperate entity.

 

[Nicolas I]

Armored Cars are in, they are simply not an seperate unit since they were used in motorized and recon divisions rather than as an seperate entity.

So because tanks are used in armoured divisions we should not be able to build them "as a separate unit" either ?

The major feature of HOI4 is supposed to be the ability to build equipments for the divisions. Will these equipments be limited to rifles, guns and tanks only ?

 

[LostinSpice]

From the latest DD it appears recon will be very important to combat. So it will be a top pick for players. Having armoured cars attached to recon 2 and 3 would be a good idea, after all, you want your recon better than the enemy's and a full battalion of armoured cars, manufactured by your picked company would be really useful. Therefore as Podcat said - you want the better recon than your opponent, so in my view you would have to invest time and factories to armoured cars to achieve this goal. Otherwise recon is a simple add on that works the same for all nations, which is ok but, well, you know my view!

 

[Zaku]

I love armored cars, but to be honest they can be abstracted to light tanks/mechanized equipment. I mean a pz2 or a halftrack wasn't that different from an armored recon car.

 

[SirRobin]

I would love to have researchable and buildable armored cars. Leave them as support units if need be but at least let us research and build them.

 

[LostinSpice]

Your're right, armoured cars were much better!