Campaign: Lights and medium mechs assessment

[Soviet_Onion]

In the campaign light and medium mechs tends to disappear from the roster as we know.

This is due to increasing challenge and the fact there is no real incentive to deploy a 100t lance when you can field a 400t one.

I've read some suggestion about strategic layers or more missions/missions improvement.

However I think there is other ways to make light and medium mechs a lot more usefull without much coding, I guess. And without inflicting an artificial deployment tonnage of 100t to the player



1-Challenge and contract generation:

Challenge should be more varied while they are generated(going from 0.5 to 5 skulls) and the skull indicator should reflect the actual challenge.
In the "end game", challenge is very often around 4 skulls with Assault Mechs and 80t vehicules. Even a 3.5 skulls challenge is a tedious task after the last priority mission. So I guess the contract generation should be a bit reworked to provide easy contracts along other ones with a clear and simple indicator. A 1 skull challenge should be doable with a light lance of 100t. 2 skull challenge with a 200t etc..
the 5 skull ones should be the ones for the very good players that love assault mechs-only lances.

We need now to make now a reason to deploy light and medium mechs

2-Workshop maintenance:

IRL deploying an armor of 45t takes a lot more workshop time to be controlled than a 10t vehicule. Let's replicate this.
All deployed BattleMechs should have a workshop maintenance time (aka immobilisation) corresponding to their tonnage. That would push to use light mechs, medium heavy mechs in different combinations to make more contracts. Let's assume 1 tons = 1tech point in first approach.

But that still not enough. We can still be with 18 heavies at some point and no reason to use a light/medium lance. Why should the player focus on small contracts when he can focus on 2 000 000+ C-Bills contracts

3-Pilot Experience.

I think that pilot experience should be a major factor in their capacity to make a mech moving. Of course skills helps a lot in combat but a rookie can drive a King Crab. So there is no need to deploy a locust.
Let's introduce XP threshold.

A MechWarrior should take increasing stability/move/accuracy penalties(0.5 point per Mech level above dedicated MechWarrior rank?) if he drives a mech above his/her rank (as rank summarizes the MechWarrior's experience somehow).

Recruit should be placed on light mechs to avoid penalties
Regular should be able to pilot medium and light without penalty
Veteran should be able to pilot heavies and less without penalty
Master should be able to pilot all mechs without penalty
Elite can be used later on the game development if super heavies or colossal mechs are introduced.

Hence a recruit in an assault mech is likely to be incapacitated quickly and will better be placed in a light mech. The player will then be incitated to look for easy challenge that won't be that easy in locusts .

And that's it

 

[Max_Killjoy]

When we only have 4 mechs to drop no matter what, and have to carry enough firepower and armor to deal with more than our own number in enemy assaults and heavies, and the AI plays the way it does, and our intel is so laughably bad at times... there's zero chance that I'm taking anything less than the full tonnage I can manage to drop.

 

[Mosey]

No incentive is going to make me bring mediums when I can field assaults because I don't want to spend an hour per mission. It's long enough as is using heavy/assault lances.

If you want to bring them you can, but you'll work three times as hard with twice the risk. If that's your thing, go for it, but I don't understand why people think twisting the players arm and forcing them into loadouts is a good idea.

To the OP, #3 is already in the game since a 10/10/10/10 pilot is better in every way than a rookie, by miles. Rookies don't need more debuffs. Take a simulator trained rookie on a five skull drop and you'll see they don't last well. After you finish the campaign, taking a rookie along is painful as is. Every mission becomes 5 skulls and a light will be one shot if you make a wrong move, veteran pilot or not.

 

[WastedAlmond]

While I agree with you that lights and mediums, even sometimes heavies are underutilized. I don't want the game to force me into using lights and mediums, I want them to have unique useful traits that make it lucrative to use said units.

For example having a light mech with (A)ECM (or similar) that could provide a serious aim debuff against missiles fired at the units within its umbrella, this could help counter LRM as currently the missiles are just way too spammy and prevalent in late game. And there is currently no REAL counter to them, they just hit you, wherever you are (fast mechs can move fast to avoid but all else not so much). Another use for lights could be advanced recon, but the enemy mechanics and maps would need to change for that to happen.

Mediums could provide a happy medium between recon and electronic warfare, or something unique altogether. Maybe an inherent perk, like being able to poptart (JJ in place and fire at the apex of said jump) to be able to snipe over cover.

Then again I'd like every weight class to have something unique. I wasn't the one who came up with weight class specific perks, I just like the idea, props to whoever came up with it (cant remember who did that).

 

[Kurnn]

While I agree with what the OP wants to gain with his suggestions, I dont think this suggestion would work.

 

[kaiki]

I agree that the game ought to be changed so that there isn't a heavy incentive to run 3-4 assault mechs for every mission.

 

[Kruos]

2-Workshop maintenance:

IRL deploying an armor of 45t takes a lot more workshop time to be controlled than a 10t vehicule. Let's replicate this.
All deployed BattleMechs should have a workshop maintenance time (aka immobilisation) corresponding to their tonnage. That would push to use light mechs, medium heavy mechs in different combinations to make more contracts. Let's assume 1 tons = 1tech point in first approach.

But that still not enough. We can still be with 18 heavies at some point and no reason to use a light/medium lance. Why should the player focus on small contracts when he can focus on 2 000 000+ C-Bills contracts

3-Pilot Experience.

I think that pilot experience should be a major factor in their capacity to make a mech moving. Of course skills helps a lot in combat but a rookie can drive a King Crab. So there is no need to deploy a locust.
Let's introduce XP threshold.

A MechWarrior should take increasing stability/move/accuracy penalties(0.5 point per Mech level above dedicated MechWarrior rank?) if he drives a mech above his/her rank (as rank summarizes the MechWarrior's experience somehow).

Recruit should be placed on light mechs to avoid penalties
Regular should be able to pilot medium and light without penalty
Veteran should be able to pilot heavies and less without penalty
Master should be able to pilot all mechs without penalty
Elite can be used later on the game development if super heavies or colossal mechs are introduced.

Hence a recruit in an assault mech is likely to be incapacitated quickly and will better be placed in a light mech. The player will then be incitated to look for easy challenge that won't be that easy in locusts .

And that's it

I like a lot these twos ideas and I think it would be a very good direction to dig, espescially the 3).

 

[drobeckj]

I just posted this in my thread but one workaround to fielding 4 assaults would be to increase drop tonnage past 400 and count past 4. I haven't beaten the game yet and would still trade 4 assaults for 1 assault 1 heavy 2 mediums 2 lights and supporting armor.

 

[Kruos]

I just posted this in my thread but one workaround to fielding 4 assaults would be to increase drop tonnage past 400 and count past 4. I haven't beaten the game yet and would still trade 4 assaults for 1 assault 1 heavy 2 mediums 2 lights and supporting armor.

Yes, I think also it would be a good direction to follow. I answered some posts on reddit with this exact same proposition. Actually I even gave an example with rough number : 200t/4 slots at start, and 300t/6 slots once the Leopard fully improved (after twos steps of +50t/+1 slot each). The 300t come from the lore (but maybe it's a little be too tight to cop with the end game missions).

 

[Max_Killjoy]

When do we get to improve the Leopard ?

Or is that a new thing you're suggesting?

 

[Spuun]

In the campaign light and medium mechs tends to disappear from the roster as we know.

This is due to increasing challenge and the fact there is no real incentive to deploy a 100t lance when you can field a 400t one.

I've read some suggestion about strategic layers or more missions/missions improvement.

However I think there is other ways to make light and medium mechs a lot more usefull without much coding, I guess. And without inflicting an artificial deployment tonnage of 100t to the player



1-Challenge and contract generation:

Challenge should be more varied while they are generated(going from 0.5 to 5 skulls) and the skull indicator should reflect the actual challenge.
In the "end game", challenge is very often around 4 skulls with Assault Mechs and 80t vehicules. Even a 3.5 skulls challenge is a tedious task after the last priority mission. So I guess the contract generation should be a bit reworked to provide easy contracts along other ones with a clear and simple indicator. A 1 skull challenge should be doable with a light lance of 100t. 2 skull challenge with a 200t etc..
the 5 skull ones should be the ones for the very good players that love assault mechs-only lances.

We need now to make now a reason to deploy light and medium mechs

2-Workshop maintenance:

IRL deploying an armor of 45t takes a lot more workshop time to be controlled than a 10t vehicule. Let's replicate this.
All deployed BattleMechs should have a workshop maintenance time (aka immobilisation) corresponding to their tonnage. That would push to use light mechs, medium heavy mechs in different combinations to make more contracts. Let's assume 1 tons = 1tech point in first approach.

But that still not enough. We can still be with 18 heavies at some point and no reason to use a light/medium lance. Why should the player focus on small contracts when he can focus on 2 000 000+ C-Bills contracts

3-Pilot Experience.

I think that pilot experience should be a major factor in their capacity to make a mech moving. Of course skills helps a lot in combat but a rookie can drive a King Crab. So there is no need to deploy a locust.
Let's introduce XP threshold.

A MechWarrior should take increasing stability/move/accuracy penalties(0.5 point per Mech level above dedicated MechWarrior rank?) if he drives a mech above his/her rank (as rank summarizes the MechWarrior's experience somehow).

Recruit should be placed on light mechs to avoid penalties
Regular should be able to pilot medium and light without penalty
Veteran should be able to pilot heavies and less without penalty
Master should be able to pilot all mechs without penalty
Elite can be used later on the game development if super heavies or colossal mechs are introduced.

Hence a recruit in an assault mech is likely to be incapacitated quickly and will better be placed in a light mech. The player will then be incitated to look for easy challenge that won't be that easy in locusts .

And that's it

Until the final part of the final mission, I ran a pilot spec Decker in a full armor Shadowhawk with a +100m rangefinder, and between his max evasion, bracing, and ability to call fire on anything he could see well before they could see him, I had no problem with his 55 ton weight. If they shot at him, they usually missed. If they hit, it was mitigated. And if he did get knocked around a bit, he could pull back and sucker the enemy into a direct fire kill zone of my choosing.

Even if we had a full company, I'd build one lance for recon (well, heavy recon - 3 mediums with one fast mover), to maintain flexibility and spot for the fire and assault lances.

 

[WastedAlmond]

I just posted this in my thread but one workaround to fielding 4 assaults would be to increase drop tonnage past 400 and count past 4. I haven't beaten the game yet and would still trade 4 assaults for 1 assault 1 heavy 2 mediums 2 lights and supporting armor.

Even if we had a full company, I'd build one lance for recon (well, heavy recon - 3 mediums with one fast mover), to maintain flexibility and spot for the fire and assault lances.

Aah what I wouldn't give for multiple lances (and combined arms if the devs come around on it). It would be nice to mix n match lances, current end game kinda mandates things on the heavier side. Though like I mentioned above, I'd like for then to flesh out the mech classes more, as there aren't many advantages to lights & mediums. At the same time they could give some stuff for heavies and assaults to keep fans of those happy as well.

 

[Soviet_Onion]

I like a lot these twos ideas and I think it would be a very good direction to dig, espescially the 3).

I appreciate.

The thing is the contract mission design is poor due to a very few parameters. No offense for the people who made it but it really lacks polishing
The "priority missions" are rather easy(I made the ever last one with 2 mediums and 2 lights, the last one with the highlander, the atlas II and 2 lights without breaking a sweat) but the contracts 5 skulls are a hell (generally) to achieve and basically after the end game there is no real incentive to pursue the game apart the assault mechs farming.
Doing an assessment of the contract generation is a prerequisite to make better things.

 

[Helaton]

To make light and medium size mechs valuable in majority of engagements, the maps need to be much larger and the LOS range as well. The engagement range of the game is around 500m or less due to map size. Majority of missions devolve into a slugging match where most tonnage wins.

If a Cicada with PPC could run a circle around an Atlas that is short range (ML/SL/AC20/SRM), there would be value in it as the Light could choose the point of engagement for itself and your team. But maps are too small for that to happen right now. Missions would be a lot longer and you'd be more likely to bring an assault or two, a heavy scout and maybe a medium or heavy. A light or medium could also lure heavies into ambushes and stretch out a battle line.

 

[Max_Killjoy]

As I said in another thread:

If your enemy brings a knife, you bring a gun. If your enemy brings a friend, you bring three friends.

"There is no overkill, there is only 'Open fire!' and 'Reload!'"


When the enemy is bringing 2-3 lances plus vehicles, and other fun like turrets, I'm not taking less than I can drop, and seeing all these "Please HBS, make me (and thus everyone else) use lighter mechs" threads only makes me hope that HBS knows better than to listen to them.