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riskywhat

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Sep 2, 2016
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I'm a relatively new player and all my games so far have been as anglo-saxon / breton countries. I wanted to try a game with a good cultural retinue so after reading that Camal Cavalry was the best "all-round" retinue, I started a game as an Egyptian duke. I'm now big enough to start building retinues but after building them I checked the in-game stats and it says:

Attack Values:

Skirmish - 0.04
Melee - 0.08
Pursue - 0.04

Defence Values:

Skirmish - 3.3
Melee - 3.3
Pursue - 2.5

The attack values look pretty awful. Am I missing something? How can this be one of the best retinues?
 
I believe camels are pretty cheap both in gold and retinue cap usage compared to the other cavalry retinues so you can mass a lot more of them easily. It's not just about pure stats, they might have good tactics as well but I don't know much about that.
 
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They are the cheapest cavalry retinue type (750 cost vs the 900 of the basic one, and most of the other cultural cavalry retinues).

They synergise very well with light cavalry synce they share a lot of bonuses from tactics with them. For example:
-Harras: Light Cav Offensive +300%; Camel Cav Offensive +300%; Horse Archers Offensive -150%.
-Volley Harras: Light Cav Offensive +100%; Camel Cav Offensive +100%; Archers Offensive +60%; Light Infantry Offensive +80%.
Raid (melee): Light Cav Offensive +240%; Camel Cav Offensive +240%; Light Infantry Offensive +240%

They work very well with the light cavalry from the stables upgrades of the castles. They don't have specific negative tactics associated with them, and a lot of their tactics counter horse archers associated tactics... which make them a favorite for horde players or fighting the mongols.
And you get a lot of camels for relatively low investment (for example for the same cost of 3 cataphract retinues, you can field 5 camels) :eek:
 
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They are the cheapest cavalry retinue type (750 cost vs the 900 of the basic one, and most of the other cultural cavalry retinues).

They synergise very well with light cavalry synce they share a lot of bonuses from tactics with them. For example:
-Harras: Light Cav Offensive +300%; Camel Cav Offensive +300%; Horse Archers Offensive -150%.
-Volley Harras: Light Cav Offensive +100%; Camel Cav Offensive +100%; Archers Offensive +60%; Light Infantry Offensive +80%.
Raid (melee): Light Cav Offensive +240%; Camel Cav Offensive +240%; Light Infantry Offensive +240%

They work very well with the light cavalry from the stables upgrades of the castles. They don't have specific negative tactics associated with them, and a lot of their tactics counter horse archers associated tactics... which make them a favorite for horde players or fighting the mongols.
And you get a lot of camels for relatively low investment (for example for the same cost of 3 cataphract retinues, you can field 5 camels) :eek:

Ah ok, so it's all about getting your commanders to choose the correct tactics for them? Should I be mixing them with another type of retinue to have a better chance of getting the best tactcs?
 
Actually I must not be understanding the combat system correctly.

Lets say I get the "Harras" tactic in Skirmish. It gives Camel Cavalry +300% Offensive. If I'm attacking (according to the in-game stats) Camel Cavalry has 0.04 attack in skirmish. So 300% would be 0.12. That's obviously still terrible. What am I not understanding here?
 
In game directory (Crusader Kings II/common/special_troops/00_special_troops.txt) you can find:

Code:
camel_cavalry = {
    morale = 5
    maintenance = 3
    phase_skirmish_attack = 3
    phase_melee_attack = 6
    phase_pursue_attack = 3
    phase_skirmish_defense = 2
    phase_melee_defense = 2
    phase_pursue_defense = 1.5
    base_type = light_cavalry
}

The stats you have are way off of what they should be. If you are using mods changing units just go to /My Documents/Paradox Interactive/Crusader Kings II/mod/ and see if it's any different. You can just change these values if you want to (but never edit game files, always copy them and create mods).
If you are not using any mods then verify your files integrity or straight up reinstall.

PS. Unless you didn't get those stats in game or from the files (TBH I can't recall if it's possible to see unit stats in the game), then the source you got the info from is obviously very, very wrong.
 
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Camel Warriors was the best all-round retinue in patch 2.4. However, when Conclave DLC came out Camel Cavalry stats were significantly nerfed. More precisely, all their defensive values were cut in half.

Currently Camel Cavalry is roughly on par with Light Cavalry, with the former performing better in melee phase and the latter performing better in skirmish and pursuit phase. That said, both units use the same combat tactics and neither triggers an early transition from skirmish to melee phase. As a result Light Cavalry generally performs a bit better because the combat tactics tend to keep it in it's preferred combat phase longer.

Note also that for the purpose of selecting combat tactics Camel Cavalry counts as Light Cavalry. This is because every special troop type in the game is considered to be a variation of a base unit type and will be detected as such by the game. As a result both Camel Cavalry and Horse Archers also count as Light Cavalry and War Elephants count as Heavy Cavalry. To give an example, an army that was composed from 150 Camel Cavalry and 100 Horse Archers would get detected as having 60% Camel Cavalry, 40% Horse Archers, and 100% Light Cavalry.

Among other things this means that any army that consists purely out Camel Cavalry and Light Cavalry in any ratio will only ever trigger the Disorganized Harass tactic (or Generic Skirmish). This also causes a serious bug with the Byzantine Cataphract retinue, which consists out of 40% Horse Archers and 60% Heavy Cavalry. The game detects it as having 40% Light Cavalry and less than 50% Horse Archers so it can trigger Harass tactic, which gives no bonus to Heavy Cavalry and even gives a huge -150% attack penalty to the Horse Archers. This is a major reason why Cataphracts performed by far the worst in my big retinue test.

Speaking of which, you can find that thread here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-in-2-5-2-practical-tests-and-results.941226/

Do take the test with a grain of salt though. In hindsight I came to the conclusion that I should've used a bigger "levy" if I wanted the test to be more realistic, so the results of skirmish units are probably somewhat inflated. Another major thing to note is that I measured cost-efficiency of retinues, essentially assuming that you're limited more by retinue cap and gold than by supply limit.

If you are limited by gold and/or retinue cap the best retinue is Scottish Schiltron. If on the other hand you have reached mega blob size and you are limited more by the supply limit of the provinces in which you are fighting than by cost the French/Occitan/Breton/Norman/German Knight retinue is likely the best. Knight is also good because AI only judges army strength by numbers, so it will constantly underestimate the strength of a retinue largely composed from expensive units such as Heavy Cavalry.

In game directory (Crusader Kings II/common/special_troops/00_special_troops.txt) you can find:

Code:
camel_cavalry = {
    morale = 5
    maintenance = 3
    phase_skirmish_attack = 3
    phase_melee_attack = 6
    phase_pursue_attack = 3
    phase_skirmish_defense = 2
    phase_melee_defense = 2
    phase_pursue_defense = 1.5
    base_type = light_cavalry
}

The stats you have are way off of what they should be. If you are using mods changing units just go to /My Documents/Paradox Interactive/Crusader Kings II/mod/ and see if it's any different. You can just change these values if you want to (but never edit game files, always copy them and create mods).
If you are not using any mods then verify your files integrity or straight up reinstall.

PS. Unless you didn't get those stats in game or from the files (TBH I can't recall if it's possible to see unit stats in the game), then the source you got the info from is obviously very, very wrong.

No, it's fine. The game displays the base stats multiplied by all the bonuses from technology and buildings. And the attack is also multiplied by ATTACK_TO_DAMAGE_MULT, which is 0.01 by default.
 
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In game directory (Crusader Kings II/common/special_troops/00_special_troops.txt) you can find:

Code:
camel_cavalry = {
    morale = 5
    maintenance = 3
    phase_skirmish_attack = 3
    phase_melee_attack = 6
    phase_pursue_attack = 3
    phase_skirmish_defense = 2
    phase_melee_defense = 2
    phase_pursue_defense = 1.5
    base_type = light_cavalry
}

The stats you have are way off of what they should be. If you are using mods changing units just go to /My Documents/Paradox Interactive/Crusader Kings II/mod/ and see if it's any different. You can just change these values if you want to (but never edit game files, always copy them and create mods).
If you are not using any mods then verify your files integrity or straight up reinstall.

PS. Unless you didn't get those stats in game or from the files (TBH I can't recall if it's possible to see unit stats in the game), then the source you got the info from is obviously very, very wrong.

Not using any mods. Just vanilla game with all DLCs and latest patch. You can see unit stats by selecting an army and hovering over the unit types at the top.
 
Camel Warriors was the best all-round retinue in patch 2.4. However, when Conclave DLC came out Camel Cavalry stats were significantly nerfed. More precisely, all their defensive values were cut in half.

Currently Camel Cavalry is roughly on par with Light Cavalry, with the former performing better in melee phase and the latter performing better in skirmish and pursuit phase. That said, both units use the same combat tactics and neither triggers an early transition from skirmish to melee phase. As a result Light Cavalry generally performs a bit better because the combat tactics tend to keep it in it's preferred combat phase longer.

Note also that for the purpose of selecting combat tactics Camel Cavalry counts as Light Cavalry. This is because every special troop type in the game is considered to be a variation of a base unit type and will be detected as such by the game. As a result both Camel Cavalry and Horse Archers also count as Light Cavalry and War Elephants count as Heavy Cavalry. To give an example, an army that was composed from 150 Camel Cavalry and 100 Horse Archers would get detected as having 60% Camel Cavalry, 40% Horse Archers, and 100% Light Cavalry.

Among other things this means that any army that consists purely out Camel Cavalry and Light Cavalry in any ratio will only ever trigger the Disorganized Harass tactic (or Generic Skirmish). This also causes a serious bug with the Byzantine Cataphract retinue, which consists out of 40% Horse Archers and 60% Heavy Cavalry. The game detects it as having 40% Light Cavalry and less than 50% Horse Archers so it can trigger Harass tactic, which gives no bonus to Heavy Cavalry and even gives a huge -150% attack penalty to the Horse Archers. This is a major reason why Cataphracts performed by far the worst in my big retinue test.

Speaking of which, you can find that thread here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-in-2-5-2-practical-tests-and-results.941226/

Do take the test with a grain of salt though. In hindsight I came to the conclusion that I should've used a bigger "levy" if I wanted the test to be more realistic, so the results of skirmish units are probably somewhat inflated. Another major thing to note is that I measured cost-efficiency of retinues, essentially assuming that you're limited more by retinue cap and gold than by supply limit.

If you are limited by gold and/or retinue cap the best retinue is Scottish Schiltron. If on the other hand you have reached mega blob size and you are limited more by the supply limit of the provinces in which you are fighting than by cost the French/Occitan/Breton/Norman/German Knight retinue is likely the best. Knight is also good because AI only judges army strength by numbers, so it will constantly underestimate the strength of a retinue largely composed from expensive units such as Heavy Cavalry.



No, it's fine. The game displays the base stats multiplied by all the bonuses from technology and buildings. And the attack is also multiplied by ATTACK_TO_DAMAGE_MULT, which is 0.01 by default.

The problem is those sort of tests (from what I understand) don't take into account how many enemy troops are left over at the end of a battle. Having a retinue that has good / decent pursue means you will have to fight less battles to win a war. Pikemen have shocking pursue. You could of course have another army to mop up but to be honest I would rather just have a good all round retinue.

So from what you are saying, to trigger good skirmish tactics I need to mix something else in? Any recommendations?
 
The problem is those sort of tests (from what I understand) don't take into account how many enemy troops are left over at the end of a battle. Having a retinue that has good / decent pursue means you will have to fight less battles to win a war. Pikemen have shocking pursue. You could of course have another army to mop up but to be honest I would rather just have a good all round retinue.

So from what you are saying, to trigger good skirmish tactics I need to mix something else in? Any recommendations?

The test did have problems, but that's not one of them. The cost-efficiency is the ratio between how many enemies you killed and how many of your own troops you lost. And if you look at the chart with the recorded test results you'll see that Schiltron retinue actually had a higher median kill rate (percentage of enemy army killed) than Caballero or Hussar retinue (41% vs 25% vs 31%). I presume this tied to the length of the battles.

In order to get the good Harass you'd have to mix in >25% of any melee unit. Heavy Cavalry, Heavy Infantry, or Pikemen would all do the trick. The issue is that generic retinues all mix those units with either Light Cavalry or Archers. Of Heavy Cavalry you simply can't get enough since the generic Cavalry retinue is already 80% Light Cavalry and only 20% Heavy Cavalry. And for Heavy Infantry and Pikemen, you can get enough but the added Archers introduce a chance to trigger Volley which will completely negate the damage output of your Camel Cavalry.

In the end I believe that it's best to just use pure Camel Cavalry, despite the fact you'll only ever get Disorganized Harass or Generic Skirmish tactics in the skirmish phase. Especially given how Camel Cavalry is actually more of a melee than a skirmish unit.
 
The test did have problems, but that's not one of them. The cost-efficiency is the ratio between how many enemies you killed and how many of your own troops you lost. And if you look at the chart with the recorded test results you'll see that Schiltron retinue actually had a higher median kill rate (percentage of enemy army killed) than Caballero or Hussar retinue (41% vs 25% vs 31%). I presume this tied to the length of the battles.

In order to get the good Harass you'd have to mix in >25% of any melee unit. Heavy Cavalry, Heavy Infantry, or Pikemen would all do the trick. The issue is that generic retinues all mix those units with either Light Cavalry or Archers. Of Heavy Cavalry you simply can't get enough since the generic Cavalry retinue is already 80% Light Cavalry and only 20% Heavy Cavalry. And for Heavy Infantry and Pikemen, you can get enough but the added Archers introduce a chance to trigger Volley which will completely negate the damage output of your Camel Cavalry.

In the end I believe that it's best to just use pure Camel Cavalry, despite the fact you'll only ever get Disorganized Harass or Generic Skirmish tactics in the skirmish phase. Especially given how Camel Cavalry is actually more of a melee than a skirmish unit.

Ok thanks for the help!