Calvinism often more successful than Protestantism now. The solution? Anglicanism.

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Pellucid

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The fact that one of the centers of Protestant Reformation is almost always sitting in the British Isles is choking the heck out of Protestantism. The English Center of Reformation wastes a lot of time converting English provinces and Irish provinces (which is wildly ahistorical) and, when it's done, it usually wastes time converting Normandy (which France often converts right back). In effect, this means that Protestantism actually only has 2 Centers of Reformation in most games. Heck, I don't remember the last time I saw a Protestant Sweden.

The solution, IMO, is to finally recognize that Anglicanism is NOT main-line Protestantism, and to give Anglicanism its own attributes and denomination in-game. This would have the side-effect of fixing the omnipresence of Protestant Ireland.

Anglicanism would be founded by decision or event by any English player. The decision would become available if the English player does not have an heir, and the event will eventually fire even if the player does. Taking the decision would give a prestige boost, a %chance for heir boost, and convert London and the adjacent provinces immediately. It would also give the same +conversion speed for religious zeal that converting to Protestantism does.

I'd recommend Anglicanism be treated almost the same way Orthodoxy is treated now: it should not be possible to voluntarily convert, it should not have a center of reformation, and it should get "tolerated heretic" status with Catholic, Protestant, Reformed, and Orthodox faiths. I think its color should be British red, and Shinto's color should be changed to cherry blossom pink.

I don't know a lot about Anglicanism as a faith, but I'd recommend for attributes it have at least +1 Heretic Tolerance to make the transition smoother for the English player/AI. I also think its attributes should be relatively powerful unless and until more mechanics are added to it, since it would be competing with the new Catholicism when it comes to deciding whether or not to convert.

I honestly think this would solve a lot of historical realism issues without railroading anything (the human player can always opt not to convert, and the AI may be overwhelmed by the Reformation anyway if Scotland embraces Reformed or if a center is founded on the French or Dutch coast).
 

MiniaAr

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Heretic tolerance for Anglicanism?
Isn't England the place where Catholics are still excluded from the royal succession? Also, the Irish?
And what about those christian denominations that had to flee to America to stop being persecuted?
Oh and what about this Puritan Revolution that saw a king decapitated?

Conclusion: Anglicanism is not tolerant of Heretics. That's fine really, most countries weren't. ;)
 
Last edited:

Incompetent

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Conclusion: Anglicanism is not tolerant of Heretics. That's fine really, no country really was. ;)

It was moderately tolerant of heretics (by the standards of the era), as long as they weren't Catholic. When it came to Catholics, though, the English were world champions at coming up with conspiracy theories.
 

MiniaAr

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Commonwealth was.
True, I'll change that. ;)

It was moderately tolerant of heretics (by the standards of the era), as long as they weren't Catholic. When it came to Catholics, though, the English were world champions at coming up with conspiracy theories.
My points exactly. Catholics are Heretics if Anglicanism is a separate religion, Anglicanism didn't tolerate Catholics therefore they are not tolerant of Heretics. :)
 

ringhloth

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More countries should be converting willingly and quickly. That's really all that needs to happen. A lot of countries drag their heels until a bunch of their provinces have converted. The AI should evaluate how well it's doing in the Papal race, how well it's likely to do in the future, influential countries' religion, and then make a decision regardless of provinces being converted or not, unless they're huge. 10, 15, maybe more can be converted without a single rebel popping up.
 

Pellucid

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Heretic tolerance for Anglicanism?
Isn't England the place where Catholics are still excluded from the royal succession? Also, the Irish?
And what about those christian denominations that had to flee to America to stop being persecuted?
Oh and what about this Puritan Revolution that saw a king decapitated?

Conclusion: Anglicanism is not tolerant of Heretics. That's fine really, most countries weren't. ;)
If there were some way to give +Non-Catholic Heretic Tolerance that would be ideal I suppose.

Maybe they could get "Tolerated Heretic" status toward Orthodox, Protestant, Reformed but NOT Catholic? I think that bit would at least be easy to code.
 

Incompetent

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My points exactly. Catholics are Heretics if Anglicanism is a separate religion, Anglicanism didn't tolerate Catholics therefore they are not tolerant of Heretics. :)

I think heretic tolerance needs to be reworked to distinguish between different kinds of 'heretic'. It's a similar story for Catholics: it's quite plausible that the same country could decide to tolerate Orthodox/Coptic, while treating Protestant/Reformed as a dire threat.
 

Pilot00

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True, I'll change that. ;)


My points exactly. Catholics are Heretics if Anglicanism is a separate religion, Anglicanism didn't tolerate Catholics therefore they are not tolerant of Heretics. :)

The president eats a lot.
An elephant eats a lot.
Therefore the president is an elephant.

Yeah, no.

I mean thats not how logic works :D

Anyway Op I agree on everything you say except two thingies: The prestige boost and the hier boost. If anything it should either not exist or become a malus, after all you give a finger to the finger to the guy with the silly hat. Eurofanatics are not gonna like that.

I think heretic tolerance needs to be reworked to distinguish between different kinds of 'heretic'. It's a similar story for Catholics: it's quite plausible that the same country could decide to tolerate Orthodox/Coptic, while treating Protestant/Reformed as a dire threat.

Yeah something akin to the rival slots would be good.
 

Pellucid

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The problem is that tolerance for heretics for Europeans is useless factor anyways. It matters only in first 50 years of reformation. Later all countries are religious monolith and has ~100% religious unity.
Which I think is a problem with the way conversion works right now. The "YOU CAN'T CONVERT IT AT ALL LOL" vs "you can convince these people to abandon their faith in less than a year teehee!" dichotomy needs to go away. It should always be possible to convert, and always be a significant time and resource investment.
 

Pilot00

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Which I think is a problem with the way conversion works right now. The "YOU CAN'T CONVERT IT AT ALL LOL" vs "you can convince these people to abandon their faith in less than a year teehee!" dichotomy needs to go away. It should always be possible to convert, and always be a significant time and resource investment.

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/52367731.jpg
 

Wolfsgeist

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Maybe not Anglicanism directly, but Episcopalism. Anglicalism is pretty much Catholicism without Pope, but with complete clerical hierarchy, archbishops, ordinated priests and so on, contrary to the presbyterian or congregationalist protestant churches. Episcopal churches could develop independently outside of England, anglican ones not so much (anglican = english).
 

MiniaAr

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The president eats a lot.
An elephant eats a lot.
Therefore the president is an elephant.

Yeah, no.

I mean thats not how logic works :D
Except that's not what I said, it's more:
Elephants are African animals (Catholics are heretics)
The president eats Elephants (Anglicanism hates catholics)
Therefore, the president eats African animals. (Therefore Anglicanism hates heretics <=> Anglicanism is not tolerant of Heretics).

Which is non unlogical (but not completely true I give you that). ;)
 

Pilot00

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Except that's not what I said, it's more:
Elephants are African animals (Catholics are heretics)
The president eats Elephants (Anglicanism hates catholics)
Therefore, the president eats African animals. (Therefore Anglicanism hates heretics <=> Anglicanism is not tolerant of Heretics).

Which is non unlogical (but not completely true I give you that). ;)

There is a textbook definition of this kind of logic that I cant remember how it is called right now, but the basis is that these kinds of arguments are not true, thats what I tried to say.
 

MiniaAr

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There is a textbook definition of this kind of logic that I cant remember how it is called right now, but the basis is that these kinds of arguments are not true, thats what I tried to say.
Yeah it looks like a fallacy/syllogism (on purpose), but it's not one:
If it rains, then the street will be wet
The street is wet
Therefore it rained
This one is a fallacy

But
If it rains, the street will be wet
It rained
Therefore the street is wet
This one is valid.

Now I said:
Catholics are heretics
Anglicanism hates catholics
Therefore Anglicanism cannot like all heretics. (equivalent to having heretic tolerance in game)
Valid as well. ;)
 

Pilot00

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Damn you, you ruined my fantasies about elephants running presidential campaigns.
 

Rubidium

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Wouldn't it be simpler to just give Protestantism 4 centers of Reformation instead, if you're worried about Protestantism underperforming? Same outcome, less side-effects.

While Anglicanism has its own flavor, it's not worth getting its own religion IMO. Especially since the main reason to convert would be to get Holy War on everyone, which seems odd. Keeping it Protestant also improves relations with other Protestant states, which is a definite game benefit (even though the English are still useless as allies).

I'm also not sure Reformed spreading faster than Protestantism is exactly a huge problem; historically (and, yes, I know what happens when people bring real history into a Paradox discussion), Lutherans and Anglicans were essentially limited to England, Scandinavia and some parts of Germany. In contrast, Reformed was big in much of the rest of Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Scotland and parts of France, as well as having significant minorities elsewhere.