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Castios

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So Art. Fire. 1 is already worthwhile, so I can fill half army by this? :)

Another question - Fort level and Def. percent bonus work when someone attacking my army there? Not garrison.
 

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Lot of math going on here which is good, and teaching about how artillery works is good too, but getting back to the whole "offensive/defensive pips what do they do?" the basic thing you need to remember is that troop types that favor offense will either win battles quickly or they'll get chewed up.

Units like Galloglaich Infantry can do frightening amounts of damage but they can take fairly significant casualties doing it. You do not want to get into a situation where you have offensive specialist troops trying to fight an opponent in the mountains across a river. With big penalties to their attack rolls they’ll struggle to inflict damage and at the same time their low defense will leave them open to losses even from low attack value defenders. You might be able to force a win via numbers, technology, or leadership but it likely won’t be pretty.

Defensive flavored troops don’t win battles as quickly but they don’t tend to take many casualties doing so. For example, I still wouldn’t advise getting into the scenario I outlined above but defensive flavored troops trying to force a victory through overwhelming numbers or technology would likely win the engagement with fewer casualties.

The question of which to use often is going to come down to your strategic situation. Do you need to win a war quickly? For example you’re invading a smaller country and you outnumber them, but you’re concerned about their blob ally. Then offensive flavor troops would be more likely to win the initial battles quickly and then have time to reinforce while you’re redeploying to fight the other opponent.

Does your opponent have a lot more manpower than you do so that you can’t really afford to take a bunch of casualties. Then defensive flavored troops would be your better bet…UNLESS your war strategy revolves around quick strikes in an attempt to defeat your opponent piecemeal.

Is War Exhaustion going to be an issue? The higher losses from offensive style troops contribute more WE to you.

Also consider how much support you’ll be able to give an army. An offensive flavored army that’s been landed in an expeditionary role may win several battles but then find it needs to withdraw to recover casualties which might make your offensive peter out. Defensive flavored troops might advance slower but would likely be in better shape to keep going after several battles in quick succession which can be important if you need to keep the pressure on an opponent but can’t spare the troops to relieve the banged up army.
 

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Better is relative. Depending on slider positions cavalry will cost between twice and three times as much as an infantry unit. At the start of the game cavalry is about twice as powerful in the shock phase.

The question is less "which is better" than which is more efficient given limited resources.

Most players at the start of the game given that shock is the only stat that matters will build cavalry until their army is right up to the tactics ratio limit. Going above the tactics limit will make you take more casualties in combat. For the western tech group you generally don't want to have more than 40% cav in your army, Eastern tech groups can have more cav.

At the start of the game, infantry is basically there to soak up enemy attacks while your cav does all the heavy lifting. Infantry also provides the forces to conduct sieges in which cavalry plays virtually no part. Cavalry rules the 15th century battlefield but few countries can afford to mass produce it.

As the game goes on the stats for infantry improve as does the fire modifier. By the midpoint of the game its rare that you want more than 4 cav units per army with the remainder infantry as it becomes more cost effective to buy 2-3 infantry units vs 1 cav. The cav units remain in the army because they excel at making flanking attacks and can still do pretty significant damage when they get a chance to roll up an enemy battle line.

By the later part of the game, cavalry's contribution continues to decrease but they're still valuable in the flanking role. It becomes most cost effective to switch to a 50/50 split in Infantry/Artillery with 2-4 cav units thrown in. Artillery is very expensive but very quickly it comes to dominate the fire phase of the battle. By this point the majority of casualties are being caused in the fire phase. By the 18th century artillery rules the battlefiled, and given that most well run countries are now rich enough to field several armies cost is not the bottleneck anymore, its the amount of firepower that you can fit into a single battle and that hands down is an Infantry/Artillery mix.
 

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So I think combination of 50% INF/50% ART + 2-4 CALV is the best mid and late game. In early game I can even lead full calvary army.



Why?

Because they have a higher tactics limit. Remember what I said, if you use a full cav army you're giving up the tactics bonus which means you're going to take more casualties. Also you need atleast a few infantry to siege, an all cav army can't conduct a siege, and sieges are what ends wars. Also if you intend to match the army size of your opponent you better have one hell of an economy because it will VERY expensive to outift a full cav army and keep in the field (they also have higher upkeep costs).

If you can deal with the costs and the casualties though, congratulations you'll be the proud owner of a wrecking ball until infantry starts to catch up as tech levels increase.
 

NikkTheTrick

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Different tech groups have different maximum % of cavalry allowed without penalty. Western tech group allows 50% cavalry, Oriental (Russia, Hungary, Poland) allow 60%. IIRC Hordes allow 100% cavalry armies.
 

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Different tech groups have different maximum % of cavalry allowed without penalty. Western tech group allows 50% cavalry, Oriental (Russia, Hungary, Poland) allow 60%. IIRC Hordes allow 100% cavalry armies.

It has to be less than the indicated values so a full 100% cavalry army is going to give the penalty even to hordes, they should be fine in any possible composition with atleast 1 infantry though.
 

GAGA Extrem

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I want make 4-5 big regiments (because enemy will lead big regiments), so I think 10 INF/10 ART/2 CAV. My average supply limit is 22 so I think few stacks of 22k soldiers is the best option. In a dangerous situation I can combine them for a while. So ART is somehow useful on open fields already (Chambered Demi Cannon)? Why it's less effective early game?
As said above: ART fire modifier.

Another small question - How cannons speed up siege? They destroy walls faster or help during assault?
You receive a +1/+2/+3 bonus (equal to 12.5% siege progress) to your monthly siege roll for every 1000/3000/4000 artillery you have per enemy fort level (or garrisson size, not 100% sure). That doesn't sound too much, but depending on fort level and defensiveness, this is a quite massive bonus (~15-20% faster sieges for a level 1 fort per bonuspoint iirc). Having a siege bonus of +2 upwards (iirc) also gives a chance that the garrison of a lvl 1 fort will surrender even without any siege progress already made. Remeber: You can combine this wis a siege leader for ultra fast sieges!

So Art. Fire. 1 is already worthwhile, so I can fill half army by this? :)
Yes. It will deal a bit lower damage than INF, but it gives a defensive boost, lowering your casualties AND shortens the frontline. For example if you have an army of 10 INF / 10 ART / 2 CAV and the enemy has 30 INF, you will only use 12 squares of the frontline, so your enemy can only deploy 14 INF at once (+2 CAV at the flanks top) - his remaining units will just sit there and do nothing until one of his INF regiment breaks and opens a gap in the frontline. :)

Another question - Fort level and Def. percent bonus work when someone attacking my army there? Not garrison.
Fort level and defensiveness are only important for sieges & assaults.
Fort level slows the enemy siege by reducing the siege roll (-1 per fort level) and increasing the garrison size.
Defensiveness will increase the effective fort level (so a lvl 1 fort @ 100 defensiveness will reduce his siege roll by -2), increase the time between two siege rolls (so a fort with 100% defensiveness will double the time between two rolls from 1 month to 2 months) and bestow a defense bonus for the garrison in case of an assault (although I don't know the exact mechanics).

It has to be less than the indicated values so a full 100% cavalry army is going to give the penalty even to hordes, they should be fine in any possible composition with atleast 1 infantry though.
As a sidenote: In the very early game (roughly until landsknecht INF comes available), all-CAV is still the most powerful unit composition. BUT! Only as long as you do not fight in difficult terrain (Italy, Switzerland, etc).

You can also check out my old siege FAQ. Some things have changed, but most of the information should still be correct:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?394401-FAQ-Siege
 
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Castios

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Thanks. A lot of tips and informations here. So, in general, fire modifier is most important if you want avoid casualties? Units from 2nd line can shot (ART) while 1st line fighting and, for example, full calvary army will do nothing on 2nd line? Thats how lines works?

Calvary size penalty concerns only for regiment, not your full army?
 
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Well, I had a long post to explain the matter, but the forum ate it twice, so I will keep this one short.
So, in general, fire modifier is most important if you want avoid casualties?
No.
The best ways to reduce casualties are:
(1) to get the "tactics" bonus (by staying below the CAV% treshold).
(2) to shorten your frontline by using ART.
(3) to lower the enemy offensive capacity by fighting in difficult terrain, causing attrition and depleting his morale before the decisive battle.
(4) to shorten battles by increasing your offense via discipline, a good general and maximized combat power per square.

But fire has the advantage that it is resolved before the shock phase (once again, this was changed a few times already).
So the first 3 days of combat are fire - and if you have an army with good firepower, you will deplete the enemy numbers and morale, decreasing his combat power during the shock phase.

This is especially devestating for all-CAV armies: They are only powerful during the shock phase, but if the enemy has a good roll during the first fire phase, the CAV regiments are decimated, in a worst-case scenario useless before they could even inflict reasonable damage.

Units from 2nd line can shot (ART) while 1st line fighting and, for example, full calvary army will do nothing on 2nd line?
Yes. Only ART can fire, the rest will just sit idle and do nothing.

Thats how lines works?
The game follows a certain procedure when setting up the battle (I am not 100% sure, but that is - in general - how it works):

Unit priority:
First line: CAV> INF > ART
Second line: ART > INF > CAV
Flanks: CAV > INF > ART

Maneuver:
INF: 1, can attack a unit in front of it and one square to the left or right
CAV: 2, can attack a unit in front of it and up to two squares to the left or right
ART: 2, can attack a unit in front of it and up to two squares to the left or right and may fire from the second line into the enemy square in front of it
Units will always attack the closest enemy.

Placement:
(1) Starting from the middle, the game will place as many units head-to-head as possible. CAV is placed first. If there is not enough CAV to fill all squares AND the flanks (!), the game will use INF instead. INF will always be placed in the center. ART will only be deployed in the first line if there is no covered square left in the second line. A covered square is a square with any INF, CAV or ART unit in front of it.
(2) When the first army runs out of melee units (including ART that has to be placed in the frontline), the game will add flanking units for the army that still has melee units left. It will place up to 2 units on each flank, starting with CAV. If there is not enough CAV, the game will use INF instead. But remember: The outer flank square can only be filled by CAV!
(3) The game will fill the second line, starting from the middle. It will place as much ART as possible, afterwards it will place INF and CAV as reserves to fill the remaining covered squares.
(4) If there are still melee units left, the game will place them further to the left and right. These units are out of range for combat and act as reserves.

If a unit breaks and a square is no longer occupied, the game will move the unit to fill the gap. I am not 100% sure, but iirc it first uses units from the second line. If there is no second line unit left, it will move units from the left or right inwards, moving all remaining units in the process. Since this will create another gap, the next unit will move, and so on.
 
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Some examples:

A: 10 INF / B: 10 INF, 6 CAV
Code:
[A2] .................
[A1] ....XXXXXXXXXX...
[B1] ..///XXXXXXXX///.
[B2] ........XX.......

A: 10 INF, 10 ART, 2 CAV / B: 20 INF, 4 CAV
Code:
[A2] ...oooooooooo...
[A1] ../XXXXXXXXXX/..
[B1] //XXXXXXXXXXXX//
[B2] ....XXXXXXXX....

A: 10 INF, 6 ART / B: 32 INF
Code:
[A2] .....oooooo.....
[A1] ...XXXXXXXXXX...
[B1] XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
[B2] XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

A: 10 CAV, 10 ART / B: 22 INF, 14 ART
Code:
[A2] .....oooooooooo.....
[A1] .....//////////.....
[B1] .XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
[B2] .XXooooooooooooooXX.

A: 15 INF, 5 CAV / B: 28 CAV
Code:
[A2] ........................
[A1] ..//XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX///..
[B1] ////////////////////////
[B2] .........////...........
 
Last edited:

Pewt

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Also you need atleast a few infantry to siege, an all cav army can't conduct a siege, and sieges are what ends wars.
Cavalry can siege just fine, they just can't assault.

But fire has the advantage that it is resolved before the shock phase (once again, this was changed a few times already).
So the first 5 days of combat are fire - and if you have an army with good firepower, you will deplete the enemy numbers and morale, decreasing his combat power during the shock phase.
In DW 5.1 shock comes first.
 

GAGA Extrem

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Pewt

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Okay, I'm not sure if I've been hallucinating or what, but I could've sworn that the game had 5-day phases starting with shock, but I just tested it and it has 3-day phases starting with fire.

Edit: Oh, I see, I must've read the wiki page (which is wrong) and internalized that. Someone with HTTT should update that to be accurate for every version, I guess.
 

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Well, I had a long post to explain the matter, but the forum ate it twice, so I will keep this one short.

No.
The best ways to reduce casualties are:
(1) to get the "tactics" bonus (by staying below the CAV% treshold).
(2) to shorten your frontline by using ART.
(3) to lower the enemy offensive capacity by fighting in difficult terrain, causing attrition and depleting his morale before the decisive battle.
(4) to shorten battles by increasing your offense via discipline, a good general and maximized combat power per square.

But fire has the advantage that it is resolved before the shock phase (once again, this was changed a few times already).
So the first 5 days of combat are fire - and if you have an army with good firepower, you will deplete the enemy numbers and morale, decreasing his combat power during the shock phase.

This is especially devestating for all-CAV armies: They are only powerful during the shock phase, but if the enemy has a good roll during the first fire phase, the CAV regiments are decimated, in a worst-case scenario useless before they could even inflict reasonable damage.


Yes. Only ART can fire, the rest will just sit idle and do nothing.


The game follows a certain procedure when setting up the battle (I am not 100% sure, but that is - in general - how it works):

Unit priority:
First line: CAV> INF > ART
Second line: ART > INF > CAV
Flanks: CAV > INF > ART

Maneuver:
INF: 1, can attack a unit in front of it and one square to the left or right
CAV: 2, can attack a unit in front of it and up to two squares to the left or right
ART: 2, can attack a unit in front of it and up to two squares to the left or right and may fire from the second line into the enemy square in front of it
Units will always attack the closest enemy.

Placement:
(1) Starting from the middle, the game will place as many units head-to-head as possible. CAV is placed first. If there is not enough CAV to fill all squares AND the flanks (!), the game will use INF instead. INF will always be placed in the center. ART will only be deployed in the first line if there is no covered square left in the second line. A covered square is a square with any INF, CAV or ART unit in front of it.
(2) When the first army runs out of melee units (including ART that has to be placed in the frontline), the game will add flanking units for the army that still has melee units left. It will place up to 2 units on each flank, starting with CAV. If there is not enough CAV, the game will use INF instead. But remember: The outer flank square can only be filled by CAV!
(3) The game will fill the second line, starting from the middle. It will place as much ART as possible, afterwards it will place INF and CAV as reserves to fill the remaining covered squares.
(4) If there are still melee units left, the game will place them further to the left and right. These units are out of range for combat and act as reserves.

If a unit breaks and a square is no longer occupied, the game will move the unit to fill the gap. I am not 100% sure, but iirc it first uses units from the second line. If there is no second line unit left, it will move units from the left or right inwards, moving all remaining units in the process. Since this will create another gap, the next unit will move, and so on.

Does this mean that it is useless to have a fighting stack of more than 60 units, 30 of which must be artillery, at any given time? Or do additional units get filled in if one of the fighting units is depleted?
 

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I do not know if the frontage is actually limited, but my guess would be: It's not, so more units *should* be able to fight.

Btw, worth to mention:
The battle setup mechanics will not work the same way when reinforcements arrive. For example, existing units will *not* be redeployed from the 2nd line to the flanks.
There are some neat tactics with timed attacks that will cause a larger army to be outnbumbered by a smaller enemy. :)

For example:
A: 10 INF, B: 20 INF
B will deploy 12 units in the first line, 8 in the second line as resreves.
Code:
[A2] .................
[A1] ...XXXXXXXXXX...
[B1] ..XXXXXXXXXXXX..
[B2] .....XXXXXX......

One day after the battle begins, A sends in 6 CAV. The CAV will deploy on the flanks, but all units from B will remain in the second line, so B is now outnumbered at the frontline by a smaller army.
Code:
[A2] .................
[A1] ///XXXXXXXXXX///
[B1] ..XXXXXXXXXXXX..
[B2] .....XXXXXX......
 
Last edited:

knul

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Does this mean that it is useless to have a fighting stack of more than 60 units, 30 of which must be artillery, at any given time? Or do additional units get filled in if one of the fighting units is depleted?

From what I´ve experienced, yes, the front is limited to 30 units so 30 inf+cav and 30 artillery is the most fighting in one battle. However, I´ve fought very few such large battles and in such large battles I normally roulate armies in and out, so I´m not completely sure.

A fighting stack of 60 units is very questionable in general, as supply limits will never be high enough to make it viable.
 

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Oh my god so much info. Thanks a lot for your time. All of you.

So I think, it's great waste not using mixed army (at least without arty if is avaiable). And we always need some calvary to fill the flanks. I think I understand the placement mechanism, I made great mistake not using art in my main army stacks, and now I know it. Also, I know why i lost so hard when I send calvary units versus units with good fire modifier, if fire is first, they just lost morale in first days and been unable to do anything later. But why calvary doing great damage early game, even in first days of battle, if their main power is "shock" damage?

How work damage spreading? Only 1st lane getting damage or both lines can receive damage at same time?
Maybe I missed it but how many troops need to fill first line? Minimum? And why 1st line is not always full if there are still units on 2nd lane which can fill it (when I look at your examples)?
 

Derp

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Isn't the tactics modifier for the first dozen or so tech levels 1.0? Which would mean you get no bonus from being under the cavalry limit, and is why all-cav armies dominate early on.