Calvary vs Infrantry

[Castios]

Let's talk about army. Can someone explain, what exactly mean "fire", "shock" and the differences between offensive fire/shock and defensive and which is more important.

I am playing Western Tech. Country (Germany) and I am thinking how to combine my army. I know that Calvary is powerful early game and weak later.

Atm. year 1580. I have those units avaiable.

Infrantry
http://i56.tinypic.com/ih8l50.jpg

Calvary
http://i55.tinypic.com/5zfl6p.jpg

But I also know about some kind of bonuses. Flanking bonus from having calvary in your army and mixed army bonus (or it's same?). At those screens Calvary look like shit compared to "Maurician Infrantry" but..

http://i55.tinypic.com/2rpwqkx.jpg

More statistics/modifiers which I don't understand.

So, for example, I have 134 slots for troops to spend, can someone help? How my army should look like? How big regiments I should have? I will fight with few 20-50k stacks of enemies army.

Last question, how to use cannons? For example, 150k army marching on my territory, should I care about cannons then?.. They are useful on open field somehow?

 

[Dustman]

'Offensive' applies when you attack while 'Defensive' is used when you're attacked. What you prefer depends on your playing style. When you're a big nation like Burgundy, having several powerful stacks with good generals going after enemy forces is preferable, so offense is preferable to defense. Being Swiss and having Austrian and French as main adversaries, it's far better to wait for them coming to you while your stacks stand still in mountains. Defensive helps quite a bit. 'Flanking' can happen when armies have cavalry, and 'Combined Arms' bonuses apply when cavalry is mixed with infantry but number of horses is below certain threshold, which is different for all tech groups.

As for army composition, check EU3 Wiki or search forums. Many people like 8k/4k infantry/cavalry groups in early game, changing to 8k/4k/8k infantry/cavalry/artillery later on. At some point cannons become very powerful and armies lacking these normally lose even to 1.5 smaller armies with good number of cannons. And artillery dramatically speed up sieges. Cavalry have far better morale in first half of the game and normally inflict higher casualties. Even with Maurician Infantry, several horse detachments improve battle odds.

This article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tercio, illustrates pretty well many things you asked. Paradox tries to simulate history accurately, and many units are effective when employed historically.

Btw, best way to face 150k army is to run as far as possible from them, scorching earth as you do. When they are halved in size, an army with good general, approximately 16k+/8k+/16k+ infantry/cavalry/artillery, standing on good defensive terrain, preferably on mountains and a river between you and opposition, has quite good chances to win. Or just scorch ground for their main stack, destroy reinforcements and lay sieges to their land while you recapture what's been lost. WE is your friend in such case.

 

[knul]

'Offensive' applies when you attack while 'Defensive' is used when you're attacked.

Incorrect. See http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Military#Combat.

Short explanation: during each phase both sides roll a 10-sided die (shown in combat window). Added to these two dice are the offensive pips for that phase, while defensive pips are substracted from the opponent's die. This result is then used to calculate inflicted damage, which is multiplied by the unit's shock or fire multiplier.

 

[Derp]

The numbers in your third screenshot are the damage multipliers each unit has. This is why cavalry dominates early on; even if it rolls slightly lower the damage gets boosted significantly, and infantry in that period still doesn't have significant Fire multipliers.

At late-game/end-game tech levels the differences become more even; cavalry still rules the shock phase but infantry will do solid damage during the fire phase. Artillery also becomes extremely lethal later on, with a Fire multiplier of 8 at TL 61. Artillery is also useful for speeding up sieges, so there's that as well.

 

[Dustman]

Incorrect. See http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Military#Combat.

Short explanation: during each phase both sides roll a 10-sided die (shown in combat window). Added to these two dice are the offensive pips for that phase, while defensive pips are substracted from the opponent's die. This result is then used to calculate inflicted damage, which is multiplied by the unit's shock or fire multiplier.

I can't see what you say in that link. Page 102 of English game manual for Vanilla says that attackers use Attack modifier, while defenders use Defend.

 

[knul]

I can't see what you say in that link. Page 102 of English game manual for Vanilla says that attackers use Attack modifier, while defenders use Defend.

The manual is outdated, probably even when the game just got out. Both armies use both offensive and defensive pips during battle. The only difference between attacking and defending a province is that the defender might get terrain bonusses.

 

[Iguanaonastick]

The way my manual explains it there are attack and defence phases on each day of battle. This is unconnected to the 5-day shock and fire phases that you can see on the battle-screen.

So, you do battle on june 1. Say it's the fire phase. Say both sides are using Maurician Infantry. Attacker rolls a 3, defender a 5. First the attackers shoot, adding offensive fire value 4 to their dice roll and subtracting the enemy defensive fire value of 3. So they get a total of 4 multiplied by 0.5 for their fire multipier which translates to... X casualties. Beats me if I know how the calculations work. Then on the same day the defenders counter-attack. They add their offensive fire value (4 again) and subtract the enemy defensive fire value (3 again) for 6 total and again multiply this by 0.5.

End result: two sets of red numbers float up over your soldiers. Provided numbers were equal to start with the defenders'll cause more damage in this example as they scored higher, although I'm assuming that the attackers will kill a bunch of defenders first meaning less are available to counter-attack.

And of course in reality all kinds of general and terrain and obstacle modifiers are added.

Plus there's this military discipline thing and flanking bonuses and so on and so forth.

 

[Ryuujin95]

The manual is outdated, probably even when the game just got out. Both armies use both offensive and defensive pips during battle. The only difference between attacking and defending a province is that the defender might get terrain bonusses.

My own personal experience strongly disagrees with your claims. There's a very significant, observable difference between attacking and defending with, say, Landsknechten Infantry or Charge Cavalry, to the point where if I were pursuing a defeated army with one consisting mainly of Charge Cavalry I would time things so that I arrive in the next province after the defeated army (thus being the attacker and not the defender.)

If what you're suggesting is in fact true, then both sets of pips are used in every battle phase, rendering the offensive/defensive distinction irrelevent and making leaders and terrain the only relevant modifiers. I'm inclined to believe that one set of pips is used for both the Attack and Defense variables shown in the wiki, which would magnify the effect of your unit pip distribution based on the situation at hand. I'm inclined to believe so because the performance of units at either extreme (Galloglaigh vs. Landsknechten) is observably different in practice.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

If you're western, I'd put 25-50% cav in your stacks early and mid, 20-30% later. Arty isn't worth having in your main stacks until the fire multiplier gets high. Before that, just use it for sieging, because the speed benefit of not having it outwieghs the fire benefit of having it. If you're eastern, 50-50 cav/inf is the minimum cav I'd use in regular armies for the first... long time, lol. I typically have pure cav stacks as Russia or a Horde for my army killing, infantry-cav mix for sieging.

 

[Gwyn ap Nud]

Well, Calvary wins on account of being an actual religious sect, never heard of Infrantry, is it some sort of very insular Gallicism? /pedantic

 

[GambleFish]

My own personal experience strongly disagrees with your claims. There's a very significant, observable difference between attacking and defending with, say, Landsknechten Infantry or Charge Cavalry, to the point where if I were pursuing a defeated army with one consisting mainly of Charge Cavalry I would time things so that I arrive in the next province after the defeated army (thus being the attacker and not the defender.)

If what you're suggesting is in fact true, then both sets of pips are used in every battle phase, rendering the offensive/defensive distinction irrelevent and making leaders and terrain the only relevant modifiers. I'm inclined to believe that one set of pips is used for both the Attack and Defense variables shown in the wiki, which would magnify the effect of your unit pip distribution based on the situation at hand. I'm inclined to believe so because the performance of units at either extreme (Galloglaigh vs. Landsknechten) is observably different in practice.

Observable differences are probably due to terrain, to be honest. Pips work as previously described.

 

[Ryuujin95]

Observable differences are probably due to terrain, to be honest.

Or not. I've played this game more than enough to be aware of terrain effects and account for them. That's not to say the pips don't work as described, I just don't see it. Perhaps I'll come around after mulling it over some more.

 

[froek]

If you're western, I'd put 25-50% cav in your stacks early and mid, 20-30% later. Arty isn't worth having in your main stacks until the fire multiplier gets high. Before that, just use it for sieging, because the speed benefit of not having it outwieghs the fire benefit of having it. If you're eastern, 50-50 cav/inf is the minimum cav I'd use in regular armies for the first... long time, lol. I typically have pure cav stacks as Russia or a Horde for my army killing, infantry-cav mix for sieging.

I prefer 50% inf 50% art (60/40 composition is also ok, maybe even better) with 2 cav.
With some support (weak morale) it will destroy any army with pure fire alone.
Somewhere later on cav gets a massive shock bonus in a short time so high cav armies become good again.

 

[unmerged(106498)]

I prefer 50% inf 50% art (60/40 composition is also ok, maybe even better) with 2 cav.
With some support (weak morale) it will destroy any army with pure fire alone.
Somewhere later on cav gets a massive shock bonus in a short time so high cav armies become good again.

Later in the game, arty rocks, but early on it's junk that just slows your stack down.

 

[knul]

My own personal experience strongly disagrees with your claims. There's a very significant, observable difference between attacking and defending with, say, Landsknechten Infantry or Charge Cavalry, to the point where if I were pursuing a defeated army with one consisting mainly of Charge Cavalry I would time things so that I arrive in the next province after the defeated army (thus being the attacker and not the defender.)

If what you're suggesting is in fact true, then both sets of pips are used in every battle phase, rendering the offensive/defensive distinction irrelevent and making leaders and terrain the only relevant modifiers. I'm inclined to believe that one set of pips is used for both the Attack and Defense variables shown in the wiki, which would magnify the effect of your unit pip distribution based on the situation at hand. I'm inclined to believe so because the performance of units at either extreme (Galloglaigh vs. Landsknechten) is observably different in practice.

I'm basing my claims on what Kanitatlan says in the Military FAQ: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?320498-New-Military-FAQ-(patch-1.2.1)&p=7398755&viewfull=1#post7398755. Although a bit old, I trust it to be uptodate nonetheless, or else it should be removed from the FAQ section. Also, while the HttH strategy guide doesn't explain the combat mechanics in detail, it doesn't support your claim that offensive and defensive pips are only used in resp. offensive battles or defensive battles.

I have no idea why you think that the mechanism I described would make offensive/defensive pips irrelevant. Defensive pips greatly reduce casualties from the appropriate phase and offensive pips increase casualties, so they do have a big influence. For example, if you select infantry with high Shock defensive, it will perform better against cavalry, while infantry with high Fire defensive will perform better against artillery.

 

[Castios]

It's so.. complicated.

That's how my cannons screen look like. http://i56.tinypic.com/rmlp2p.jpg

And those modifiers http://i55.tinypic.com/2rpwqkx.jpg

Can someone tell me how many stacks of calvary I should have minimum to get flanking bonus?

However, armies that contain cavalry gain a 'flanking' bonus for up to 4 regiments of cavalry during combat resolution that will greatly improve the damage done by your army. Therefore it is advisable to have around 4 or 5 regiments of cavalry in your army.

It is true?

Anyway how I can calculate power of my troops? For example my maurician infrantry has (offensive) 4 fire, 3 shock, 6 morale. And the modifier is 0.5 for fire and 1 for shock, so I have 6 fire and 6 shock in total? ((0.5x4+4)+(1x3+3)) ? If it's corret, my strongest unit it's Calvary but with low morale, so I think I can't use them for long battles or for chasing enemy.

Currently I have 4x 20infrantry+4calvary in every regiment stacks. I don't focus on sieging, I need my whole army on open field because enemy has much bigger army. Also, defending can be hard because my border with enemy is huge.

I can invite any experienced player into game for a sec could help me reforming my army.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Flanking:
CAV has a maneuver value of 2, so it can attack enemies 2 squares left or right from it's current position.
So in short: Always have at least 2 regiments of CAV in your armies to cover the left and right flank.

Power calculation:
Consult the EU wiki for details. In general, modifiers are much more important than unit stats.

If you have problems with large enemy armies during the very early game, try to use more CAV (maybe even all-CAV). As long as you avoid offensive action in difficult terrain, you CAV will have roughly twice the combat power of INF, giving you a chance to inflict heavy casualties. Simply fight, kill some of his men, retreat from combat, regain ORG and bleed his armies dry. Remember: As long as he is inside your territory with a large army, attrition will eat up all of his reinforcements, while you reinforce ad double speed.

If you have problems in the mid game (as it seems, looking at your ART unit models), try adding ART to your main combat stack. Use 50% INF, 50% ART and 2-4 CAV for maximized combat efficiency per square. ART can fire from the second line (with 50% combat power) and will bestow half of it's defensive dots to the unit in front of it. In addition, your frontline will be shorter, so an enemy with a same sized army lacking ART cannot deploy all of his units at once.

Give 10 INF / 10 ART / 2 CAV a try. Costly, but best performance you can get.
Or try 13 INF /13 ART /4 CAV.

 

[Castios]

Yeah we talk about 1580 multiplayer game. I am leading richest country so my biggest problem is how to combine my regiments to get 100% efficiency

I want make 4-5 big regiments (because enemy will lead big regiments), so I think 10 INF/10 ART/2 CAV. My average supply limit is 22 so I think few stacks of 22k soldiers is the best option. In a dangerous situation I can combine them for a while. So ART is somehow useful on open fields already (Chambered Demi Cannon)? Why it's less effective early game?

Another small question - How cannons speed up siege? They destroy walls faster or help during assault?

 

[knul]

Yeah we talk about 1580 multiplayer game. I am leading richest country so my biggest problem is how to combine my regiments to get 100% efficiency

I want make 4-5 big regiments (because enemy will lead big regiments), so I think 10 INF/10 ART/2 CAV. My average supply limit is 22 so I think few stacks of 22k soldiers is the best option. In a dangerous situation I can combine them for a while. So ART is somehow useful on open fields already (Chambered Demi Cannon)? Why it's less effective early game?

Very good indeed to mind supply limits, attrition is a dangerous thing.

Artillery is less effective early on as its fire modifier is still low. You can see fire and shock modifiers on one of the ledger pages, or here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Tech_tree

As the fire modifier is multiplied with the modified die roll to calculate casualties, this means that on lower tech levels, artillery just doesn't hurt that much. IIRC many people agree that around level 26, artillery becomes worthwile for battles, as the artillery fire modifier becomes significant and a new artillery type, leather cannon, is introduced. Other tech levels where artillery sees a big jump is Land lvl 18 (doubles art. fire modifier) and 33-35 (new art. type, rapid increase of art. fire modifier).

 

[Tamerlan]

I have no idea why you think that the mechanism I described would make offensive/defensive pips irrelevant. Defensive pips greatly reduce casualties from the appropriate phase and offensive pips increase casualties, so they do have a big influence.

Assuming you guys are correct...

As for the pips, I would say that according to the description linked above, it depends where and which type of battle you are going to deal with. If you are going to attack on hard terrain, your modified role modifier is likely to be negative, so each additional attack point multiplies inflicted casualties by 2. If you are going to defend on difficult ground it works the other way around, each defense point is going to divide sustained casualties by 2 during the relevant phase.

In plains, the average value for the dice is 4.5, so if you take two points of if by getting your units defense higher, you'll divide your sustained casualties by almost 1.8. Adding 2 points of attack values on it will multiply casualties by 1.44 only. So if the maths work as described in that page, unless you are going to attack on hard terrain, high defense values seem to be "better" .