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CWJameson

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Greetings !
In the current state of the necrophage origin I am concerned about the chamber of elevation. It used to grant five or ten stability when upgraded it has since lost that bonus so I prepped a change to chamber of elevation.

perhaps removing the exotic gas cost from upgrading the building.

or how about making the conversion job come from the planetary administration and upgrade along with it ? To free up building slots since Slavery empires already need a slave processing facility along with the chamber of elevation.

On another topic

I wanted to find some competitive necrophage ( not lithoid) builds so I went to YouTube and googled Stellaris necrophages and to my surprise I could not find a single necrophage origin that was not also lithoid as well, to me this cheapens both lithoids and the Necrophage origin. What are your thoughts on this ?
 

Strangedane

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On the chamber: Maybe the gas upkeep isn't needed anymore, but I certainly wouldn't want chamber rolled into the capital.
That would just mean more micro for planets where I'm just growing preps.
Slave processing is handy, but not all necrophages are slavers.

On the other topic.
The benefit of using lithoids as your necrophages is so huge that if you are looking for a "competetive" build, that's all you'll find.
There are however a few outlier options.
Organic necrophage hives (i use plants) with lithoid prepatents running catalytic can pull of some silly early game aggression.
 
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HFY

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I wanted to find some competitive necrophage ( not lithoid) builds so I went to YouTube and googled Stellaris necrophages and to my surprise I could not find a single necrophage origin that was not also lithoid as well, to me this cheapens both lithoids and the Necrophage origin. What are your thoughts on this ?

Radiotropic Industrialist Necrophage might be interesting. Breeder planets (with large non-necro populations) would be basic resource worlds, industrial worlds would be -40% growth Tombs but you don't care because your necro pops mostly don't grow naturally.

Radiotropic means you're not a Lithoid, so that might be worthwhile.

Heh, might even be fun with Idyllic Bloom -- have Gaia Worlds for your slaves, Tomb Worlds for the masters. Ironic.
 
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Vorpaliminal

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Radiotropic Industrialist Necrophage might be interesting. Breeder planets (with large non-necro populations) would be basic resource worlds, industrial worlds would be -40% growth Tombs but you don't care because your necro pops mostly don't grow naturally.

Radiotropic means you're not a Lithoid, so that might be worthwhile.

Heh, might even be fun with Idyllic Bloom -- have Gaia Worlds for your slaves, Tomb Worlds for the masters. Ironic.
Radiotrophic is allowed on Lithoids as of 3.5, and Ruthless Industrialists is mutually exclusive to Idyllic Bloom. I kind of want Radiotrophic to be allowed on all pops right now, as I'd like to use the Mechanicus-expy Toxoid for a Post-Apocalyptic run.
 
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HFY

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Radiotrophic is allowed on Lithoids as of 3.5

Oh geez, really? 3.x might have a Lithoids fan on the dev team, like 2.x had a Machines fan.

and Ruthless Industrialists is mutually exclusive to Idyllic Bloom.

Figures, but it's a bit unfortunate because the combo would be funny -- only one or the other on any given planet, but still making use of both for different species.
 
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theBigTurnip385

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Oh geez, really? 3.x might have a Lithoids fan on the dev team, like 2.x had a Machines fan.



Figures, but it's a bit unfortunate because the combo would be funny -- only one or the other on any given planet, but still making use of both for different species.
Your main lithoid pops have 0.2 mineral upkeep after you open the harmony tree.

A necrophage hive drones have 0.2 mineral upkeep
 
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CWJameson

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Radiotropic Industrialist Necrophage might be interesting. Breeder planets (with large non-necro populations) would be basic resource worlds, industrial worlds would be -40% growth Tombs but you don't care because your necro pops mostly don't grow naturally.

Radiotropic means you're not a Lithoid, so that might be worthwhile.

Heh, might even be fun with Idyllic Bloom -- have Gaia Worlds for your slaves, Tomb Worlds for the masters. Ironic.

it’s a start!

I don’t believe the design team ever intended for lithoid necrophage to be the only good design for them.
 
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theBigTurnip385

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I have been experimenting with this

can you share your build

Trade Builds are awesome.

You have complete control on the number of leader's on a planet. Trade isn't affected by habitability, so your merchants and executives still produce trade.

And the Clerk job makes a great place to keep necrophage pops waiting to become leaders.

My current run through is a mega-corp anglers/catalytic necro noxious build.

Planet design is easy since every ocean world produces science + food + consumer goods + trade -> energy, consumer goods.

Build enough housing districts to open all building slots and then build farming districts with the rest.

Fill building slots either unity or science, if spiritualist you have to use garbage priests, managers are better in a noxious build as the amenities on the priest is a waste and the trade on the manager reduces the consumer input cost by about 50%.

The only design variation is an alloy world.

If you have too many clerks that's because you over purged or over elevated. You need to plan ahead and see how many leaders you are going to need and then make more by purging or elevating. It's easy to avoid purging if you manage your elevation buildings. You don't need very many of them as your only using them to create leaders.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Radiotropic Industrialist Necrophage might be interesting. Breeder planets (with large non-necro populations) would be basic resource worlds, industrial worlds would be -40% growth Tombs but you don't care because your necro pops mostly don't grow naturally.

It's, eh, wasting most of the other necrophage synergies that that point. Not in the sense of 'it's bad', but 'it's losing it's strengths.'

Radiotropic is half of its usual value as a trait, because necrophages are already 50% upkeep discount pops. You can't pair it with bloom either- the other plantoid synergy- due to the necrophage restriction. Of necrophage's usual priority traits (unity for rulers, amenities for rulers/entertainers, and science), you'd generally only be able to get the unity boon. It's a bit of a trait wash.

Industrialist would also basically wash-away the necropop's primary benefit- 5% specialist bonus. Having 25% bonuses to industrial production is definitely better than 20%, but it's less relative gain than the 5% versus no 5%. The more other bonuses there are, the less the necrophage matters, and is the necrophage bonus is largely irrelevant, it's honestly just better to not necro-convert, and having more workers for the 20% factory jobs instead of fewer workers and fewer 25% jobs. For the earlier game, Syncretic might even be the better option, if only so that syncretic happiness buffs can allow negative-amenity employment model and crank out a few more worker pops of value.

Industrialist would also struggle to be exploited in the early game, because the necrophage's main early weakness is the worker economy to afford early industrial districts in earnest. 20% industrial output is always good, but unless necropurging it's rare for necropahges to get their guaranteed worlds both stabilized and productive in the first 20 years or so, which would be the primary output window of interest.
 
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CWJameson

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Another thing that is annoying is that using reanimator/slaver/necrophage requires 3 separate buildings on each world basically.

I would like the neophyte jobs to be connected to the planetary administration since it goes from 3 down to 1 due to late-game pop growth mechanics.

Additionally, the thrall world doesn't auto repopulate because the slaves become toiler job which makes them ineligible to be auto resettled.
 
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DeanTheDull

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I suppose I just want nonlithoid necrophages to be as competitive as Lithoid Necrophages :cool:

They are, you just put lithoid on the prepatent, not the necrophage, and preferably as a Xenophobe and giving them the crystal trait.

A lithoid necrophage can be a specialist anywhere, but a lithoid prepatent can be a worker anywhere, and that's honestly more important for your competitive considerations because the more important shortage in the early game is your number of good-quality worker worlds for your necessary inputs to feed specialists, not your number of specialist worlds. You have 3 guaranteed high-value specialist worlds in your homeworld and guaranteed worlds- what you don't have is the income stream to maximize their specialist employment.

While the usual growth consideration for necropahge-lithoids is 'the pop growth loss doesn't matter,' the pop growth consideration for lithoids is that the pop growth loss doesn't actually matter that much for them either, in aggregate. -25% pop growth is rush, but +50% habitability means mitigating 25% in growth penalties. On 60-habitability planets, you're at net -5% growth. On 50 habitability, same growth. On 40 habitability, you're at +5% growth. Etc. For the early game when you don't have many species, lithoids are the kind of colonizing everything, as they'll both grow faster on normally bad worlds and they produce better, as they are mitigating 50% habitability penalties (25% output hit).

Factor in that the necrophage is getting 2 species with 100% habitability on their own homeworld- which is equivalent to a bio-empire with rapid breeder- meaning you wouldn't be growing your prepatent there anyway, but have a species who may be trait RNG but can be that normal 60% growth, and lithoid necrophages are a pretty useful thing.

What makes them more useful in a competitive since is that you can give them that crystal trait for early scouting advantages, and then convert it into +25% energy weapon damage if you luck into the already-strong Tiyanki energy syphon or mining drone lasers, on top of the cyrstal plating tech. These are major early-game upgrades.

By contrast, lithoid-necrophages have only a few modest advantages, and a significant counter-synergy. As lithoids, they can use the bio-furnace building to convert food to energy... but mechanically it's just better to trade excess food bilaterally, or see it on the market at micro-increments, and even that's not good value. Lithoid necrophages can be raised as specialists on the planets they convert on... but any necrophage can just be migrated back to the core systems for established infrastructure. A lithoid-lithoid pair could have both gas and crystals for maximum early edicts for warfare. This last one, to be clear, is a real gain.

But the counter-synergy is on the psionic and bio-ascension question. Necrophages have a natural synergy for bio-ascension thanks to their slave-economy setup, and the fact that their chamber upgrade is tied to the bio-ascension 2 tech, so they're going there anyway. But lithoids can't get the most value out of bio-ascension, since they can't take the robust trait for the 5% to all jobs. And psionic is very good for snowballing if you build for it... but then you can't get rid of your necrophage's starting traits, such as crystal.

Which isn't an issue if you use a prepatent lithoid with crystal, who you can just necropurge in the future anyway, and for whom the 10% growth bonus of xenophobe in general puts lithoid-prepatents back above the natural growth point of species on the 60 habitability zone worlds.


Also, with Toxoids and Incubators, I beleive you can put incubators on Lithoid prepatents... which just turns lithoids into a growth machine in the early game.
 
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DeanTheDull

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That's a little insane. Like gosh, that's practically an entire Civic of benefit on its own.

Maybe they should... tone that down to 2/4, like with Nobles?

I think it's gone now. But realistically, necrophytes on their own are a net positive stability mechanism. Early on, they provide excess amenities, in the medium-term, they provide for the ruling caste whose political power you can affect via living standards for stability games, and later on necrophyte conversions take away bad-ethic conquered pops and replace them with state-ethic happier and more stable pops.


But yeah, it having nothing now is weird, since you could theoretically run out of Necrophyte candidates.

If you run out of necrophyte candidates, you've won, since you can only do that if you've run out of all other species in the galaxy to convert, including fallen empires

Another thing that is annoying is that using reanimator/slaver/necrophage requires 3 separate buildings on each world basically.

Necrophyte conversion buildings (should) replacing your need for a holotheater for most of the early game on most worlds. It's a substitution effect of building requirements, not an addition above your usual requirement.

Slave processing centers are only meaningful if you have large numbers of slaves on your planets. Necrophages generally won't unless they're bypassing necrophyte conversion, and if they're bypassing necrophyte conversion they generally won't use slaves long enough for the slave processing center to matter. If they are necro-converting the slaves as fast as they grow, the slave processing center never has enough slaves to be worth building.

I would like the neophyte jobs to be connected to the planetary administration since it goes from 3 down to 1 due to late-game pop growth mechanics.

Then it goes to 6, because the necrophyte conversion upgrade is a flat 6 per decade.

Additionally, the thrall world doesn't auto repopulate because the slaves become toiler job which makes them ineligible to be auto resettled.

That's always been the case for all thrall world builds. It's always been a micro-management requirement.
 
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