C:SL (Modern City) Vs. Banished (Old timey town) - Forestry & Farms

[medopu]

TotalyMoo, i'm a big enthusiast in observing peoples behaviour on game forums. I'm especially interested in what people have to say about the game in various stages of game developement from the day 1 announcement to years and years after the game release.

What's worth noting is, that games often have widely different types of feedback/complains pre-release and post-release.
I remember carefully looking at feedback for Cities XL before and after it got released. I was on Monte Christo official forums since it was still called Cities Unlimited.

What i've found interesting is, that rhe difference in "Cities XL forum complains" pre-release / post-release wasn't that different in intensity, it was actually differing in the types of complaints that were posted.

I suspect that this is happening because generally, 99.9% of people are just incredibly horrible in predicting how the game will play and feel like. That's not an insult. That's just an honest observation.
What i've seen is, that pre-release complaints are generally complaints that are raised upon observing only the game-footage or upon citing the carefully written developer responses. When the game was released, the complaints took a complete paradigm shift. Suddenly, people no longer gave a damn about the lack of power lines, or farms being surrounded by roads. The post-game complaints deal mainly with game elements that cannot be easily detected other than by buying the game and playing it. I'm talking about preformance issues, resource management, balance of economy, city facilities, overall difficulty and feel of the game, soul-less-ness... and so on.

This is why I as a CO employee wouldn't just yet open the champagne, celebrate and pronounce:
"since people are complaining about farm sizes, i guess we've made it guys, since it could be much worse"
The time for celebrations will come after a few months of release, when people fully gasp the feel of the game, the preformance and general playability.

TL;DR:
I guess all i'm trying to say is, don't prematurely celebrate just yet, since perhaps the biggest issues with this game might just be hidden from us, the players in pre-release. You cannot give an honest opinion on a game based on 3 gameplay videos and a few batches of screenshots.

That's just my opinion.

 

[Hannodb]

Yup, I feel the same. I'm probably going to buy the game anyway. It might not have some things that I want, but I understand that you are just a small team making this.

+1

 

[TotalyMoo]

TL;DR:
I guess all i'm trying to say is, don't prematurely celebrate just yet, since perhaps the biggest issues with this game might just be hidden from us, the players in pre-release. You cannot give an honest opinion on a game based on 3 gameplay videos and a few batches of screenshots.

Oh, don't get me wrong here. I'm absolutely not trying to claim we've made a perfect game and people will be content if they simply get to try it. I've seen the way feedback happens before and after release and second your observation.

Cities: Skylines will most definitely get a lot of criticism after our players have gotten their hands on it - both positive and negative. This is why we don't do any kneejerk reactions on the initial thoughts posted and start promising what to change after release. We'd rather let you all try it and then we decide what needs improving the most.

Still it's a nice game and we're very happy with what we have, so we're confident in that people will like it for its strengths and want to help us build an amazing city builder over the years post-release!

 

[AKicebear]

Skylines will most definitely get a lot of criticism after our players have gotten their hands on it - both positive and negative. This is why we don't do any kneejerk reactions on the initial thoughts posted and start promising what to change after release. We'd rather let you all try it and then we decide what needs improving the most.

+1 - downright reasonable

 

[medopu]

we don't do any kneejerk reactions on the initial thoughts posted and start promising what to change after release. We'd rather let you all try it and then we decide what needs improving the most.

I'm so excited, because this is exactly the response i was looking for!

I also have no doubt, that this will be the best and the most successful and critically acclaimed city builder game for years to come! (or should i hope to say: series? )
You and all the developers are just incredibly upbeat, honest, talkative/engaging and just so incredibly like-able that i would be absolutely shocked and astonished if this game doesn't turn out to be great!

I remember you saying in one post, that all criticism of this game is deep-down only made because people care about this game and want to help it. And this is absolutely spot on!
Even the best 10/10 games in any genre receive criticism, but they also receive a place in the fans heart and this is what matter the most and I am absolutely sure, that this game will perhaps have some issues but still be a fantastic game worth paying every €.

 

[Person012345]

Friends, take a moment to read this and please acknowledge that you have done so in a reply before you continue discussing.

Done.

I assume you aren't saying that we can't discuss points generally especially when a factual claim is made (eg. "X isn't realistic") that can be proven true or false, but rather that we shouldn't be saying things like "your opinion that X is inadequate is wrong and you shouldn't post it", is that right?

 

[Greygor69]

Done.

I assume you aren't saying that we can't discuss points generally especially when a factual claim is made (eg. "X isn't realistic") that can be proven true or false, but rather that we shouldn't be saying things like "your opinion that X is inadequate is wrong and you shouldn't post it", is that right?

I think it's also the tone of the discussion, but I should really let TotallyMoo speak for himself.

 

[TotalyMoo]

I'm so excited, because this is exactly the response i was looking for!

I also have no doubt, that this will be the best and the most successful and critically acclaimed city builder game for years to come! (or should i hope to say: series? )
You and all the developers are just incredibly upbeat, honest, talkative/engaging and just so incredibly like-able that i would be absolutely shocked and astonished if this game doesn't turn out to be great!

I remember you saying in one post, that all criticism of this game is deep-down only made because people care about this game and want to help it. And this is absolutely spot on!
Even the best 10/10 games in any genre receive criticism, but they also receive a place in the fans heart and this is what matter the most and I am absolutely sure, that this game will perhaps have some issues but still be a fantastic game worth paying every €.

Oh dear, maybe we have to be less friendly so you don't have too big expectations! Although it's hard when I have so much fun talking to you all

I have no doubt that Cities: Skylines can turn out to be the best game released in the genre to date if both sides manage to do things right after we have released. The biggest obstacle I can see for us reaching this is for people to misinterpret the launched game as "all it will ever be" - although keep in mind this doesn't mean we're going to release an "unfinished" game on the other hand. Games like these have long tails and rely on proper support from both developers and community to truly blossom. What we release is a proper, stable, fun to play platform with a LOT of moddability and a very open mind. The danger lies in people interpreting it otherwise. I hope you can all help us communicate this

 

[Person012345]

TotalyMoo, i'm a big enthusiast in observing peoples behaviour on game forums. I'm especially interested in what people have to say about the game in various stages of game developement from the day 1 announcement to years and years after the game release.

What's worth noting is, that games often have widely different types of feedback/complains pre-release and post-release.
I remember carefully looking at feedback for Cities XL before and after it got released. I was on Monte Christo official forums since it was still called Cities Unlimited.

What i've found interesting is, that rhe difference in "Cities XL forum complains" pre-release / post-release wasn't that different in intensity, it was actually differing in the types of complaints that were posted.

I suspect that this is happening because generally, 99.9% of people are just incredibly horrible in predicting how the game will play and feel like. That's not an insult. That's just an honest observation.
What i've seen is, that pre-release complaints are generally complaints that are raised upon observing only the game-footage or upon citing the carefully written developer responses. When the game was released, the complaints took a complete paradigm shift. Suddenly, people no longer gave a damn about the lack of power lines, or farms being surrounded by roads. The post-game complaints deal mainly with game elements that cannot be easily detected other than by buying the game and playing it. I'm talking about preformance issues, resource management, balance of economy, city facilities, overall difficulty and feel of the game, soul-less-ness... and so on.

This is why I as a CO employee wouldn't just yet open the champagne, celebrate and pronounce:
"since people are complaining about farm sizes, i guess we've made it guys, since it could be much worse"
The time for celebrations will come after a few months of release, when people fully gasp the feel of the game, the preformance and general playability.

TL;DR:
I guess all i'm trying to say is, don't prematurely celebrate just yet, since perhaps the biggest issues with this game might just be hidden from us, the players in pre-release. You cannot give an honest opinion on a game based on 3 gameplay videos and a few batches of screenshots.

That's just my opinion.

I think that often people think that something is going to be a bigger problem than it is in some cases. Going back a bit to when they announced 2 zone densities, a lot of people cried out because they're USED to having 3 zones and people imagine the consequences of having 2 zones within the context of the 3-zone system they already know but I think the simple fact is, we couldn't know how a 2-zone system (even without the district-specific height limits) would actually play until we've gotten our hands on it. Certainly I think it happens that people think that one thing is going to be a problem but then it turns out to be pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme, then they find something they'd underestimated to be a bigger problem.

Also people are often terrible at coming up with solutions for things, but this goes for devs as much as players to be honest. I've seen games with problems where the fix for that problem has made the game significantly less enjoyable than just having the original problem (at least in my opinion).

 

[TotalyMoo]

Done.

I assume you aren't saying that we can't discuss points generally especially when a factual claim is made (eg. "X isn't realistic") that can be proven true or false, but rather that we shouldn't be saying things like "your opinion that X is inadequate is wrong and you shouldn't post it", is that right?

Correct, although the "realistic" example might be a bit bad since that's kind of a gray area (as in "realistic" being vaguely defined when it comes to games) and therefor it's hard to have a "right or wrong" opinion.

 

[Person012345]

Correct, although the "realistic" example might be a bit bad since that's kind of a gray area (as in "realistic" being vaguely defined when it comes to games) and therefor it's hard to have a "right or wrong" opinion.

I was mainly thinking about a thread in which it was discussed whether the lumps in runways and the angle of the runway was realistic or not. It's not so much about having a right or wrong opinion in cases like that, there's a right answer and a wrong answer. Of course even if it's not realistic that doesn't make it bad and one is free to have an opinion that it works fine within the context of the game either way (for example in the aforementioned argument I agreed the lumpiness was unrealistic but I wasn't too put off by it because of the scaling of the airport anyway). In such cases it's more about establishing whether the initial complaint that "it's unrealistic" that the complainer made is actually a valid complaint at all. Although I suppose you are right that there are some grey areas within games, as they are only mimicking reality rather than truly simulating it in many ways in the first place.

 

[medopu]

I think that often people think that something is going to be a bigger problem than it is in some cases. Going back a bit to when they announced 2 zone densities, a lot of people cried out because they're USED to having 3 zones and people imagine the consequences of having 2 zones within the context of the 3-zone system they already know but I think the simple fact is, we couldn't know how a 2-zone system (even without the district-specific height limits) would actually play until we've gotten our hands on it. Certainly I think it happens that people think that one thing is going to be a problem but then it turns out to be pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme, then they find something they'd underestimated to be a bigger problem.

Also people are often terrible at coming up with solutions for things, but this goes for devs as much as players to be honest. I've seen games with problems where the fix for that problem has made the game significantly less enjoyable than just having the original problem (at least in my opinion).

Haha exactly! It's like as if you'd make a total judgement of a person based on his ok-cupid account.
Yes, you can make a quick judgement on how someone looks, what are his/her interests, but at the end of the day, you have to actually meet and talk to the person in order to know who he/she really is, and what are his real-life strenghts and weaknesses.

I think the same can be applied to games as well.

Games like these have long tails and rely on proper support from both developers and community to truly blossom.

Spot on! Just take a look at Simcity 4. The game needed a good expansion pack and plenty of love and dedication from modders to become what it is now. This is why we cannot expect a new-comming game like C:SL to outpreform a "veteran"-game in every possible way.

 

[cRAGGLE]

These issues are on the devs radar and that's all I wanted. Cheers for all of your input.

 

[Hannodb]

Done.

I assume you aren't saying that we can't discuss points generally especially when a factual claim is made (eg. "X isn't realistic") that can be proven true or false, but rather that we shouldn't be saying things like "your opinion that X is inadequate is wrong and you shouldn't post it", is that right?

I think what he is also saying, is there is a difference between expressing what your likes and dislikes of the game is, and getting abusive and insulting because the devs aren't doing what you say they should be doing.

People participate on this forum (mostly, I think) because they care deeply for this game and - overall - love what CO has done. I do not want to come here reading how absolutely rotten Paradox and CO is, simply because of some detail that isn't to someone's liking. That spoils the mood here for everyone. Criticizing and badmouthing is not the same thing.

It's not the content, but the tone that is offensive.

 

[Person012345]

I think what he is also saying, is there is a difference between expressing what your likes and dislikes of the game is, and getting abusive and insulting because the devs aren't doing what you say they should be doing.

People participate on this forum (mostly, I think) because they care deeply for this game and - overall - love what CO has done. I do not want to come here reading how absolutely rotten Paradox and CO is, simply because of some detail that isn't to someone's liking. That spoils the mood here for everyone. Criticizing and badmouthing is not the same thing.

It's not the content, but the tone that is offensive.

Though he did say "Sure, some posts might be blunt, some might be criticizing or worried but nothing posted in here (par a few minor paragraphs) are abusive or bad. So let's lay down some facts before you continue."

Obviously people shouldn't be abusive, but nobody really was (at least in moo's opinion).

 

[TotalyMoo]

Morelike the overall content was not abusive, although both "sides" did step into that area at times, which is kind of what I want to move away from. One shouldn't need to add ad hominem insults or derogatory terms to get ones point across

 

[Lee Saxon]

You guys are absolutely right that C:SL shouldn't be SimFarm or The Sims any more than The Sims should be SimAnt. Problem is, absolutely no one is saying otherwise. Not one person. The complaints about farms are basically just (completely reasonable) complaints about the 4x4 grid. If you're not worried about that (I'm only sorta worried about it), fine, but there's no need to invent strawman arguments to make people who feel otherwise look dumb or irrational.

ETA: However, if Paradox decided to ALSO make a SimFarm successor, I would buy the hell out of that. And yes, I know those bizarre "tractor driving simulators" exist, and no, that doesn't count.

 

[TotalyMoo]

You guys are absolutely right that C:SL shouldn't be SimFarm or The Sims any more than The Sims should be SimAnt. Problem is, absolutely no one is saying otherwise. Not one person. The complaints about farms are basically just (completely reasonable) complaints about the 4x4 grid. If you're not worried about that (I'm only sorta worried about it), fine, but there's no need to invent strawman arguments to make people who feel otherwise look dumb or irrational.

ETA: However, if Paradox decided to ALSO make a SimFarm successor, I would buy the hell out of that. And yes, I know those bizarre "tractor driving simulators" exist, and no, that doesn't count.

It's a legit argument/criticism, so don't worry, I have no intention on "silencing" people who think we haven't taken the wisest of desicions.

And yes, you're completely right in the strawman thing, which is kind of what I was going for. If only I had thought of that fallacy as an example, damn it

 

[Miwi]

...
I suspect that this is happening because generally, 99.9% of people are just incredibly horrible in predicting how the game will play and feel like. That's not an insult. That's just an honest observation.
...

Well, I know a lot of people (included me) who predicted Simcity 2013 turned out to be $h;t and surprise, surprise, it was And not very difficult to predict. The most complains before release were the online only constraint and the map size - and those were the complaints after release. As everybody knows both issues were a desaster.

Also a lot of people predicted that Cities in Motion 2 not being moddable would be a big mistake - and it was.

So, with a bit of experience that usually comes with age (after seen a lot of game releases) it is not too difficult to predict what would be the biggest issue after release - if there are any.

My prediction for C:SL at release day one:
- there will be a patch probably the same day - ok that's not so difficult to predict ;-)
- there will be complaints about the general plastic / toy look of the game
- there will be complaints about the lack of details, just a bit lifeless

 

[KyleJ]

Well, I know a lot of people (included me) who predicted Simcity 2013 turned out to be $h;t and surprise, surprise, it was And not very difficult to predict. The most complains before release were the online only constraint and the map size - and those were the complaints after release. As everybody knows both issues were a desaster.

Also a lot of people predicted that Cities in Motion 2 not being moddable would be a big mistake - and it was.

So, with a bit of experience that usually comes with age (after seen a lot of game releases) it is not too difficult to predict what would be the biggest issue after release - if there are any.

My prediction for C:SL at release day one:
- there will be a patch probably the same day - ok that's not so difficult to predict ;-)
- there will be complaints about the general plastic / toy look of the game
- there will be complaints about the lack of details, just a bit lifeless

Compared to every other city builder I think prediction three will not arise. We shall see whether you become the holy prophet of the city builder

All in all, C:SL Is no where near going to be the disaster SimCity was, and I personally think it'll continue to grow for a long time afterwards.