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unmerged(6429)

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Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by Duuk
Not to be rude, but the South seceeded because they felt that slavery as an issue would soon be abolished since the north was politically superior to the south at this time (Lincoln was elected without carrying a single southern state).

Anyone claiming otherwise is a revisionist on the same scale as people who claim the Holocaust didn't happen.

If WWII taught us anything, it is that revisionism is bad, even if people in the south want to think that their former system of repression, evil, and greed is somehow idealistic.

The CSA would not have abolished slavery ever. It was in their constitution that slavery could neither be abolished by congress nor by individual states. (Article IV section 2 clause 3, Article 4 section 3 clause 3).

Nowhere in the confederate constitution is it mentioned that states have a right to secede from the confederacy. With notable exceptions (slavery), the CSA constitution is the same as the US constitution.

States' rights was not the issue. Accept that.

You may not intend to be rude, but I greatly resent being compared to someone who denies the Holocaust, and I await your apology. I have a doctorate in history. May I ask what your credentials are?

I never said slavery wasn't an issue, I said it wasn't the ONLY issue, and that it wasn't the ROOT issue. I find your argument to the contrary naïve and shallow, and I suspect your reading on the subject has been quite limited, and dated. You sound like an economic determinist - an approach that has been largely discredited as overly simplistic by modern scholarship.

You may wish to read more on the subject before offering any more insults. Pehaps you could start on this thread - I would appreciate it if you would read my entire message before making such dismissive comments and gross generalisations about my argument.

If Southern secession was purely a matter of slavery, how do you explain the tarriff crisis of the 1830s?

Lincoln was elected on a platform of stopping the expansion of slavery into the western territories where slave-based agriculture wouldn't have worked anyway. He had no intention of ending slavery until AFTER the war had commenced.

The election signaled a political realignment in the union that left the South out of the equation. This did NOT mean the abolition of slavery - that would have required a constitutional amendment, which still would have been too difficult. It DID mean that centralising policies hostile to the South, such as tarriffs, could be enacted, however.

Furthermore, your interpretation of the Confederate Consitution is flawed, so I suggest you reread those clauses. The first clause you cite affirms the US fugitive slave law, stating that escaped or illegally transported slaves would not be considered emancipated by virtue of having reached free soil. Why would that be in the consititution at all if states were prohibited from abolishing slavery? The second clause allows slavery in territories that are not yet states (a reaffirmation of Dred Scott v. Sanford). Finally, right of secession is implied by the enumeration of federal powers and in Article VI Section 1 Clause 6, just as in the US constitution (which is why Lincoln did not want the issue to go before the Supreme Court).

As I have already said: The issues involved were political: slavery, tarriffs, states' rights, etc. but the regional differences that underlay these differences were CULTURAL. The different regions had different origins, and these origins shaped the development of the cultures in these regions. These cultural differences are WHY different regions had different ideas, attitudes, and perceptions regarding these political issues. And they STILL shape the political landscape today.
 
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unmerged(6429)

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Nov 19, 2001
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Originally posted by tuna
My entire knowledge of the American Civil War is based on two classes I took at college, so I might be a bit off here, but wasn't it Abraham Lincoln who shifted the focus of the war onto slavery way after the conflict had started, with his famous Gettysburg speech?

Correct about Lincoln, but it was the Emancipation Proclaimation that did this, not the Gettysburg Address. I misspoke when I said the war was "not about slavery" - what I meant to say (and as I said earlier in the message from which you quoted) is that the war was not ALL about slavery. There were deeper issues.

In fact, the Gettysburg Address affirms that, even after the Emancipation Proclaimation, Lincoln's overriding goal of the war was the preservation of the Union, not emancipation.
 
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If you read all - stress all - of what different people had to say from that period, you will find that Lincoln had a very pragmatic view. His party was strongly in favor of abolition, and he himself leaned that way though he saw many practical difficulties in achieving it. He had repeatedly countermanded generals who attempted to free the slaves, but supported those who viewed them as 'contraband' seized from the enemy.

The Emancipation Proclamation deals with two points: it is only applicable in states that remain in rebellion, and it is an attempt to drain the South's labor pool. Lincoln really meant it when he said if he could preserve the Union by freeing all, some, or none of the slaves he would do whatever worked best.

Slavery was the axle that the war revolved on but secession was the motor that drove it down the road. If you doubt the war was about slavery, read the speech given by Alexander Stephens, Vice-Presidency of the Confederacy, link here .


Two short quotes from that speech:

"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution -- African slavery as it exists amongst us -- the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution."

"In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this [slavery,ed.], as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world."
 

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Sep 13, 2002
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Originally posted by Guinnessmonkey


If anything American History still takes it too easy on the South. Let's say it all together: "The War was about slavery."

Really is this why ever slave state succeded. Is this why that 70%-80% of the Southren population who didn't own slaves fought for the South. Is this why most Union soldiers wrote home many times that they didn't care if the South keep their slaves. Is this why my great-great-great-great grandfather fought for the Union and was imprisioned at Andersonville even though he owned 2 slaves (I'm from Kentucky). Is this why it was two years into the war till Lincoln empacited(sp) slaves in enemy terrorty. I think not.
 

unmerged(1047)

Commander, US Pacific Fleet
Feb 21, 2001
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Remember that at this time, the other parts of the United States had economies whose needs could be met domestically. The Northeast was industrializing, but it had the raw materials needed or could get them elsewhere in the US. The West was just being settled, but could get what it needed via business with the Northeast. The South depended upon international commerce for its business - exporting cotton and tobacco and importing all sorts of manufactured things (which they, probably, could also have gotten from the Northeast but didn't).

With the growing population in the north, and the imbalance in Congress - not only the fact that there were more free states than slave states, but also that some of those "slave states" were in name only; slavery was all but dead in Maryland for example - the South could no longer rely on its political weight to PREVENT the Northeast from disrupting this system. While exports (under the constitution) cannot be taxed, the North controlled the freight ships, and also could tax things being imported (which they wanted to, to slow the competition in manufactured goods from Europe). Either, or both, could cripple the Southern economy.

Even if the war was about slavery or secession - they were tied together. At a root level the South had seceded to prevent the North from destroying their slavery-based economy. But this was not widely understood at the time. The Northern soldiers may well have not understood that the reason for secession was slavery. They simply knew they were there to keep the Union together. And on the other side, the Southern soldiers saw it as a fight for independence - they did not all, necessarily, make the connection to slavery either. We are not all economists.
 

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Originally posted by Director
Slavery was the axle that the war revolved on but secession was the motor that drove it down the road. If you doubt the war was about slavery, read the speech given by Alexander Stephens, Vice-Presidency of the Confederacy, link here .

The fact that slavery was acceptable in the South, to the point that politicians would attempt to rationalise it as necessary to maintain freedom, while so many in the North would find it objectionable and contrary to the idea of freedom, demonstrates the degree of cultural difference between the regions. Both regions revere freedom; one finds slavery contrary to nature of a free society, another sees it as necessary. The difference is not about race or economics, it's about ideas, attitudes, and perceptions. This difference can only be explained as a manifestation of two contrasting cultures that had evolved very differently for 250 years.

These cultural differences manifested in different ways - slavery was the most striking example, but it reflected in other forms as well. Slavery may have appeared to be the cause of the war because it was such a glaring difference, but that was on the surface. At the root of the conflict was culture, just as culture, rather than taxation, was the root cause of the American Revolution.

"What if's " are not always terribly useful except for fun, but I think it might clarify the issue to ask whether, if slavery as an institution had not existed in the South, but all else remained the same - the rural agrarianism, the export-oriented economy, the extremely limited role of government in society, the predisposition for decentralisation, the prevalence of Baptists, etc. would a Southern independence movement arisen anyway (or, for that matter, a Northern independence movement?)? I believe the answer is yes. For evidence, look at the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions of the 1790s, the Hartford Convention of the 1810s, and the tarriff crisis of the 1830s - all early indicators of cultural differences between the regions manifesting in political form. Without slavery, some other political issue would have touched it off, but once again, the root cause would have been culture.
 

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Sheridan - points well put, but...

The North believed the tariffs were essential, and that the South had agreed to those tariffs. The South believed it had the right to block internal improvements which the North wanted, and thought the tariffs should be temporary. Neither side made much effort to understand the needs of the other.

And the West - the growing power that both North and South courted - was absolutely dependent on the Mississippi River and New Orleans to get its crops to market. Railroad rates were much more expensive and railroads were not as plentiful as in later years. The West needed products from the North to farm and needed access through the South to get those products out. The West was dependent on both regions, hence it never really went solidly into either camp.


In my analysis, the South left the Union because of three things:

1) Fear of what the North could do, rather than proof of what the new administration would do, and a failure to realize the Northern and Western states were not a monolithic bloc like the South

2) Failure to abide by long-understood and accepted conditions on the limitation of slavery to the Deep South and failure to understand that people who didn't favor abolition were appalled at the Dred Scott decision and the pursuit of slaves into free states

3) Fire-eaters who believed they would control a Southern nation (they were wrong - they were almost uniformly rejected for public office in the Confederacy)

The South's refusal to accept the results of the Presidential election and determination to secede unless they had virtual veto power in the government turned the rest of the nation against them. Much like we react to the child who says 'do it my way or I'll take my toys and go home.'

The Grinch -

it is indeed a fact that other sections of the US had threatened secession on more than one occasion, and a fact that both sides felt betrayed in the fight over tariffs (among other issues).

Let's look at the logic from both sides.

A slave-owning Southerner believes his property is not secure unless he can take it to other states. His property is not secure if the federal government can seize it, whether or not he is paid something when the property is seized. Hence, the South must have enough votes in Congress to block any such seizure.

A Northerner is repelled at slave-hunters crossing into his state and grabbing blacks who are said to be slaves. He hates the idea of the extension of slavery into other states, and believes the Founding Fathers agreed that slavery would not be extended. And if his state prohibits slavery and frees any slave who enters, he resents the federal government saying that's not so. After all, if a slave-owner moves in with his slaves, then the Northerner's state becomes a slave state - from his point of view.

As you said, it is a clash of cultures and a study in mutual incomprehension.

The most fascinating element for me has always been the large number of non-slave-owning Southerners who volunteered to fight for the Confederacy. But I believe there would have been no secession without the money, political power and self-interest of the slave-owners.

Sadly, the Mexican War of the previous decade had convinced both sides that it would be a small, short, easy war with low casualties. Had they known what was coming, I think some compromise would have been reached. But both sides believed in the short, victorious war and both paid. The South bet everything on a 'sure bet' and lost everything.

I just get so tired of people here in the South arguing that slavery had little or nothing to do with secession (that statement's not directed at anyone here on the board, by the way). It was a direct cause and it underlay every other cause.

Had the South never adopted slavery, it would never have enjoyed the explosive development and wealth that the plantation system brought. What it would have been like, I do not know, but a South without slavery would have been very different. Perhaps more like Ohio, Illinois and Indiana, all of which share borders with Southern states.

I believe that without slavery - and the breakup of the Union - polarizing the debate, compromises would have continued to be worked out with much heat but no war. Or in an extreme case an amicable separation, with the Union fracturing into two, three, or more polities.

The second-most fascinating is the way the 'fireeaters' on both sides kept fanning the sparks until war broke out. There hasn't been such a disastrous failure of diplomacy since WWI.

If you want to get into what-ifs, here are two:

1) the Trent Incident actually does blow up into war. Can the Union survive? My opinion: probably, though maintaining the blockade is out of the question, and the Confederacy would survive. Britain would have had a difficult time putting as many troops into Canada as the Union could, and the British navy was in for a shock in coastal waters when it encountered Union ironclads. Remember that for much of the war the Royal Navy possessed only two, and they were inferior in armor and firepower to American monitors.

2) the face of the post-war Confederacy had it survived. Does it continue as an agrarian state or pursue the industrialization forced on it by the war? Do the strong state governors succeed in turning it into a banana republic, or could an ambitious president make it over into a dictatorship? And what would happen to American prosperity and economic growth with standing armies and long frontiers?

EU2Lover - Yes, fear that the new Republican administration would move to curb slavery drove the original Deep South states to secede. Lincoln's call for volunteers swung enough votes to then push Virginia and the rest of the Southern states out. Kentucky initially tried to stay neutral but was too centrally located to remain so.

I'm sure your ancestor had good reasons for fighting for his home and family, and you should be proud of his strength of conviction. But if you trace back to root causes, the issue that drove South Carolina to secede was fear that the Lincoln administration would curb or try to abolish slavery. Once the avalanche began, a lot of other motivations got mixed in.

Lincoln said repeatedly that he would free some, all or none of the slaves if that would keep the Union together. The South did not believe him. He finally emancipated slaves in the states that were in rebellion - not everywhere - to deny the South a pool of cheap labor. His personal preference was a system of purchase and emancipation with the freed slaves being shipped back to Africa. That idea had the distinction of being hated by all sides.
 

unmerged(12669)

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Originally posted by Fate
I live in Texas and I don't consider myself Confederate.

It's not my country and it's (was) not my problem but i am from Catalonia and i always fight (in games) in the confederate side. They fought for the freedom of their states and the preservation of their way of life.
If the CSA wins, i think that the Union should get a permanent Casus Belli on the CSA. Sooner or later The Union would win another war, since i think that they had better technology, army and navy.
 
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