C.O.R.E. : Technology tree - support, ideas, problems...

[WoMOS]

Strange Close Support Bomber prerequisites

Hello,

I have the feeling that the techtree is not really correct (or at least not useable) concerning Improved Close Support Bombers (9504). They require 30mm Cannons (14975) which are in level 8 of the Artillery tree. Improved Close Support Bomber are in level 5 of the Heavy Aircraft tree and are blocked for three years by this and when 30mm Cannons finally become available, players will most probably prefer the next better Dive Bomber (Basic Turbojet Dive Bomber, 9802) which is in level 8 of the Heavy Aircraft tree and should be ready around the same time as 30mm Cannons.

Something similar has happened to Improved Medium Bombers (9206) which require 1500hp engines (9402) which require High-Octane Fuel (9407) which requires (because someone had "no better idea" ) Improved Synthetic Oil Plant (4601). The latter is level 7 of industrial tech whereas Medium Bombers are level 5 and Fuel and Engine are level 4 of Heavy Aircraft.

This might have worked in previous versions. But now all levels in all trees more or less take the same time (1 year). So these prerequisites no longer ensure that no one goes on a one-dimensional research spree but instead artificially delay techs even if all required techs are researched from day one. IMHO this is not WAD since I prefer not to have to draw a complete techtree with research times just to find out when some tech really becomes available and to prevent that - as with Improved Close Support Bombers - I go after a useless tech branch.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Hello,

I have the feeling that the techtree is not really correct (or at least not useable) concerning Improved Close Support Bombers (9504). They require 30mm Cannons (14975) which are in level 8 of the Artillery tree. Improved Close Support Bomber are in level 5 of the Heavy Aircraft tree and are blocked for three years by this and when 30mm Cannons finally become available, players will most probably prefer the next better Dive Bomber (Basic Turbojet Dive Bomber, 9802) which is in level 8 of the Heavy Aircraft tree and should be ready around the same time as 30mm Cannons.

True, but it's not that abvious that player will have other corresponding techs for jet bomber. Generally I agree, that 30mm cannons are a bit too high in artillery tech tree - one level earlier should be better.

Something similar has happened to Improved Medium Bombers (9206) which require 1500hp engines (9402) which require High-Octane Fuel (9407) which requires (because someone had "no better idea" )

Hmmm... Who could that be...
The problem with High-Octane Fuel was that only USA had enough resources and advanced oil industry to support air force with that. Although this part IMO should stay as it is - most of the advanced countries got 3 level of the Industry at the start of scenario, so they can reach level 7 in 1940. If player simultanously develops bomber project and prototype, he can get his first improved bomber units in second half of the 1940.

 

[Steel]

I agree about moving the 30mm cannon a level earlier. We should probably look at the AT tube rocket launcher series and wire-guided AT. Some of them seem to come in way too early, making 1939 vintage infantry quite high-powered against tanks. Perhaps cut the bonus by 50% for the early techs and move some of the later techs at least one level later.

 

[Junkyard_Pope]

The Computer techs that reduce time and cost of research should decrease time of research more. Perhaps always decrease R&D time by 5% or start at 10% and then decrease the time by less. This lets's you get in more research, especially due to the new extremely long time periods for research.

Edit: Also, I think that the Air tech "armoured cockpit" should increase surface defense by the same amount it increases air defense by. This is because it protects the pilot from the shrapnel that is sent up by AA fire and by flak.

 

[WoMOS]

The problem with High-Octane Fuel was that only USA had enough resources and advanced oil industry to support air force with that.

But that would say that - from a historical point - High Octane Fuel is no (indirect) prerequisite of Improved Medium Bombers since other countries (than the US) had them too.

Although this part IMO should stay as it is - most of the advanced countries got 3 level of the Industry at the start of scenario, so they can reach level 7 in 1940. If player simultanously develops bomber project and prototype, he can get his first improved bomber units in second half of the 1940.

Well, the direct way (for Germany) until it can research Improved Medium Bombers is 1050 days. Via oil plants, fuel and engine it is 1440 days (remember researching fuel and the engine takes time too). So the precondition is the real blocker. If you think that Improved Bombers should be available later, then IMHO this should be done via the Gold Techs and not via some (difficult to follow) precondition chain.

But I liked the old way where one could decide if one wanted to start the war with improved planes or with improved tanks (or maybe ships but I never tried that) depending on where one concentrated research (in hard mode. In normal mode one could probably have both). Now there is no choice since the only thing, which can be researched in time, are tanks.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

The Computer techs that reduce time and cost of research should decrease time of research more. Perhaps always decrease R&D time by 5% or start at 10% and then decrease the time by less. This lets's you get in more research, especially due to the new extremely long time periods for research.

Edit: Also, I think that the Air tech "armoured cockpit" should increase surface defense by the same amount it increases air defense by. This is because it protects the pilot from the shrapnel that is sent up by AA fire and by flak.

It was designed that way, but in HoI you can't rise surface defense of planes via technologies. Don't ask me why.

About the computer techs... I understand that new time/cost system makes electronic tech tree less attractive that it was before. It's probably true, but still those techs are very useful. Each 5% of time reduction means -18 days of tech development. What's more, electronics is not only about computers (I know, in previous versions it was not true... ). What's more, please notice the other side of coin - the time is long, but the cost is low. 10/360 is the same as 20/180, except for inability to speed R&D in one field too much.

Radio technologies give you the access to the techs, that lower enemy defense globally, rising his casualties rate in every battle (each of those techs is located in infantry tech tree and rises enemy casualties rate by 2%).

 

[unmerged(14163)]

nevermind
Guess I should read at least the last page before I post.

 

[unmerged(14922)]

I've found a little problem and I don't know if it was been reported. I started a game with USA and I have found that in order to get a nuclear bomb I need detonators. That's fine. But in order to have detonators I need to research Advanced ordinance and equipment (Radar Proximity fuse) under the Artillery tree and the Improved Centimetric Radar. This means that while I could have developed the first bomb in 1940 (I'm currently researching Atomic Bomb Testing) I'll need to wait 1945, since I didn't start researching in the Artillery tree since day 1.
If it's WAD, then I think that you shouldn't allow me to research Atomic Bomb Testing if I haven't a bomb. How can I test something that I don't have?

 

[Kevin Mc Carthy]

I've found a little problem and I don't know if it was been reported. I started a game with USA and I have found that in order to get a nuclear bomb I need detonators. That's fine. But in order to have detonators I need to research Advanced ordinance and equipment (Radar Proximity fuse) under the Artillery tree and the Improved Centimetric Radar. This means that while I could have developed the first bomb in 1940 (I'm currently researching Atomic Bomb Testing) I'll need to wait 1945, since I didn't start researching in the Artillery tree since day 1.
If it's WAD, then I think that you shouldn't allow me to research Atomic Bomb Testing if I haven't a bomb. How can I test something that I don't have?

MateDow is working on a revamped Nuke Tech tree for 0.8. Maybe any ajustments should wait...

 

[unmerged(25668)]

MateDow is working on a revamped Nuke Tech tree for 0.8. Maybe any ajustments should wait...

Personally, I think type 1 and 2 bomb should be able to be built without any advanced sort of detonators. They're very, very simple devices compared to the later versions.

 

[MateDow]

Personally, I think type 1 and 2 bomb should be able to be built without any advanced sort of detonators. They're very, very simple devices compared to the later versions.

Any sort of air dropped bomb will have an advanced detonator. Nulcear weapons are most effective when they are detonated a specific height above the ground. Both of the bombs dropped on Japan had three diferent types of detonator to ensure that the bombs detonated at the proper height. Those were pretty much the most basic nuclear weapon designs. This will ensure that the requirement for advanced detonators will remain. That is also something which will keep nuclear weapons from appearing to soon in the game.

In the new tree, the nuclear waste bomb is going to be elimated. It wasn't a really realistic weapon system. The US looked at that weapon and dismissed it. If you are to the point where you have the reactor pile to get the amounts of nuclear waste that you need to build a bomb, you will be close to the level of technology for generating Plutonium.

I hope that answers your question (concern). MDow

 

[unmerged(25668)]

While I agree that the optimum damage is done from a certain height, you would hardly need advanced radar technologies to set off a bomb at a certain altitude. I had assumed that detonators had such high requirements to simulate the effort needed to set off a compression bomb (Fat Man type) where timing is crucial. A Little Boy type bomb needs a heap of explosives, a long tube and an altimeter to set it off. (Well, and U-235)

It's all irrelevant since it's being re-done anyways. I just like to argue pointless things.

 

[ArmdChair]

Format of entry

I just noticed that the Tank application Smoke Grenade Launcher (or whatever its exact name is) comes up in the "research tech" window with the first portion of the description in the title field instead of the tech name.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

I just noticed that the Tank application Smoke Grenade Launcher (or whatever its exact name is) comes up in the "research tech" window with the first portion of the description in the title field instead of the tech name.

Yup, text bug made in 0.71... Will be corected in next patch.

 

[Ghost_dk]

bump

 

[Tormodius]

Hi, I just cheated in late 1944 and I see USA-AI has almost all techs in almost all categories. They are already into jets, nukes, modern tanks and they have all available doctrines... However, Germany-AI don't have any advanced tanks or any jets yet, but they did fight hard on the east front, so perhaps the AI did prioritize techs very low?

Is this a usual outcome in all games on lvl. 'hard' + 'aggressive' ?
Supposed to be that way or not?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Hi, I just cheated in late 1944 and I see USA-AI has almost all techs in almost all categories. They are already into jets, nukes, modern tanks and they have all available doctrines... However, Germany-AI don't have any advanced tanks or any jets yet, but they did fight hard on the east front, so perhaps the AI did prioritize techs very low?

Is this a usual outcome in all games on lvl. 'hard' + 'aggressive' ?
Supposed to be that way or not?

This is expected outcome, but it depends on many factors, like USA elections results (which can go really wrong rising USA CG), German success in the East, and victory points distribution chosen by the player (normal - 5x times higher, or old).

 

[Der Bismarck]

I just checked out the Starfire mod and saw the interesting idea of how the tech's are modified to suit the particular doctrines/culture of various nations.

Has there been any consideration of integrating this Starfire mod concept of Tech tweaking by country into the CORE mod?

Happy Easter!

 

[Semi-Lobster]

tankette brigade ad-on?

Most if not all WWII cavalry divisions and regiments had tankette brigades attached to them like Poland, USSR, Siam, Italy, Japan, Persia etc. I think that, like heavy tank brigades, there should be a tech that attaches a tankette brigade to cavalry. It should increase hard and soft attack, make cavalry have a small oil consumption, increase the time to make cavalry and IC. It shouldn't lower speed in my opinion, possibly it could make them faster

 

[Der Bismarck]

Is it possible to get the leader sort by trait feature working?