C.O.R.E. : Technology tree - support, ideas, problems...

[unmerged(18274)]

A small suggestion: Rudolf Hess

How about an event for Rudolf Hess flying to England? (Heck, if Marlene Dietrich gets one, why not?) ...... the effect could be a reduction in British dissent and a corresponding increase in German dissent. Or maybe the Brits could gain a German tech. I know that there's no evidence that Hess revealed (or even knew) any really worthwhile information, but the Brits could have derived SOME goodies from whatever he did (or might have) said .. and the Germans couldn't be sure he wouldn't give away the store (assuming he knew the store's inventory ). Anyway, the event certainly caused Hitler to throw a real temper tantrum and it definitely temporarily caused uncertainty and disruption in the Fuhrerhauptquartier...... so why not?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: A small suggestion: Rudolf Hess

Originally posted by Vulcan
How about an event for Rudolf Hess flying to England? (Heck, if Marlene Dietrich gets one, why not?) ...... the effect could be a reduction in British dissent and a corresponding increase in German dissent. Or maybe the Brits could gain a German tech. I know that there's no evidence that Hess revealed (or even knew) any really worthwhile information, but the Brits could have derived SOME goodies from whatever he did (or might have) said .. and the Germans couldn't be sure he wouldn't give away the store (assuming he knew the store's inventory ). Anyway, the event certainly caused Hitler to throw a real temper tantrum and it definitely temporarily caused uncertainty and disruption in the Fuhrerhauptquartier...... so why not?

Some time ago we discussed Hess escape (probably whole discussion is available on the CORE: Germany forum... Concusion of this discussion was that this even had no serious effect (at the start someone suggested that this event should give peace option) - so effects like you suggest (change of dissent +/-1) might be better... On the other hand tech transfer is something more SF - there is no info about that, and seriously, technology transfer (in HoI meaning) is too complicated to be concluded by one man (especially not scientist, but politician).

Do you want to script that? All scripters are welcome ...

 

[unmerged(6545)]

I just noticed this today, isn't the he111 a strat bomber, not a tactical bomber?

Even the German Strat bomber graphic is the He111...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Twisted_Mentat
I just noticed this today, isn't the he111 a strat bomber, not a tactical bomber?

Even the German Strat bomber graphic is the He111...

And it's wrong - He 111 was tactical bomber. Although Germans tried to use them in strategic missions, most notably during the Battle of Brittain. Thanks to the lack of true strat bomber stats (high max. altitude, multiple MG turrets, long range) without much success.

True German basic strat bomber is "Ural Bomber" project, but it was abandoned (in favor of tactical/dive bombers development).

 

[unmerged(3168)]

Just trying out CORE for the first time and I'm impressed. One thing I have spotted is that most of the tanks are crosslinked. Basically panzer.txt list the units as per the tech mod while the
while the armour_tech.txt points them to the default HOI entries.

For example.

IN the game Imp Medium Tank 70mm M
(should be MODEL_GER_4_23;PzKpfw IVF2 (70mm M))
instead points to the
Basic Med 50MM
(MODEL_GER_4_19;PzKpfw IIIG (50mm))

Sorry if this has already been raised and keep up the good work.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Kiith
Just trying out CORE for the first time and I'm impressed. One thing I have spotted is that most of the tanks are crosslinked. Basically panzer.txt list the units as per the tech mod while the
while the armour_tech.txt points them to the default HOI entries.

For example.

IN the game Imp Medium Tank 70mm M
(should be MODEL_GER_4_23;PzKpfw IVF2 (70mm M))
instead points to the
Basic Med 50MM
(MODEL_GER_4_19;PzKpfw IIIG (50mm))

Sorry if this has already been raised and keep up the good work.

Under this adress you will find hotfixes for CORE 0.52. Two files to download and install in proper mod-CORE folders.

 

[jxa536]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Minors research barrier

Originally posted by Generalisimo
i agree with the ultra poor countries, that will exclude Portugal from there.
With 2 IC, it is really important that...
We could test what happens if you leave Brazil out of the "minors" groups... i think that they should be included, after all, it is 1 IC, but, they could become really powerfull... so, probably it will be better to leave some place for exchange of techs by events (in case they join the allies like they did historically).

Is this possible?

Can events be scripted for minors at perhaps annual intervals that will "get them up to speed" on some doctrines, along the lines of Germany and the SCW in 1.05?

By this I mean, perhaps by 1940 all minors receive most of the Great War level docrtines. Some sort of artificial technical osmosis I guess.

This would improve the playability of minors by allowing them to acquire research without being bankrupt. Nothing too crazy to alter play balance though.

 

[brandnew70x7]

There should be some later doctrines that cater to mass combat for Germany and the like (To simulate the various citizen 'armies')

Switzerland would most likely start off with this to show the fact they had the ability to mobilise a great deal of the populous.

 

[jxa536]

Agreed-

Once the Axis and Allies are at was, an event can state, for the Commonwealth nations for example, that a the "Country's war readiness has increased, and we have developed the follwing doctrines"

....
....

or for new members to an alliance- "Our allies have taught us the following doctrines"

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Burris
There should be some later doctrines that cater to mass combat for Germany and the like (To simulate the various citizen 'armies')

Switzerland would most likely start off with this to show the fact they had the ability to mobilise a great deal of the populous.

Some sort of idea - just like currently Great Patriotic War is executed (let's say, in case of Germany - Konigsberg or any other national German city is taken, doctrine is triggered...)?

For minors it's even easier...

Thing for 0.7 though...

jxa536@:

Yes, it's possible - but there are some problems with that. Changing the cost is not based on branch of research, but on the theory/application (so sole doctrines can't be made cheaper - but levels, like "Early War Experience..." or "Basic Tanks" can be). But it's good anyway - when minor player get a chance to actually invent something, and not only mortar, rifle and land mine, that will make real diffrence in gameplay.

Of course "empire builders" will have most fun, but since those guys usually ignore historical timeline anyway it's not that big a deal.

 

[brandnew70x7]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Some sort of idea - just like currently Great Patriotic War is executed (let's say, in case of Germany - Konigsberg or any other national German city is taken, doctrine is triggered...)?

For minors it's even easier...

Thing for 0.7 though...

jxa536@:

Yes, it's possible - but there are some problems with that. Changing the cost is not based on branch of research, but on the theory/application (so sole doctrines can't be made cheaper - but levels, like "Early War Experience..." or "Basic Tanks" can be). But it's good anyway - when minor player get a chance to actually invent something, and not only mortar, rifle and land mine, that will make real diffrence in gameplay.

Of course "empire builders" will have most fun, but since those guys usually ignore historical timeline anyway it's not that big a deal.

I meant it basically as a way for Switzerland to be even harder to kill off. After all, Germany would've lost around 250,000 soldiers trying to defeat the Swiss.. and their objective wouldn't of been achieved as the tunnels leading to Italy would've been blown.

Which would also be a very good event if the infastructure hits are now permanent in events. (Are they?)

 

[unmerged(6545)]

Hrm....i just assumed it was a Light bomber, and they needed to develop a long ranged Bomber that could reach deep into tbe soviet union to attack the factories there, not in using Tactical bombers...HE111s were used by the Condor legion bombing of Gurnica...er...how ever its spelt.


BTW, in the above postings of the wrong tank types being linked ot techs, its still occuring...my Panzer 70mm S are in actual fact Panzer IV (MG)...s and thats with both the patches installed on it...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Burris
I meant it basically as a way for Switzerland to be even harder to kill off. After all, Germany would've lost around 250,000 soldiers trying to defeat the Swiss.. and their objective wouldn't of been achieved as the tunnels leading to Italy would've been blown.

Which would also be a very good event if the infastructure hits are now permanent in events. (Are they?)

There are many ways to make Switzerland tough nut to crack - in 0.6 we added to OOB files 'modifiers' block - part of save game file with parameters of movement modifiers (like in rain, snow, mud, moutains) and attack/defence modifiers. It's no problem to make Switzerland hard to get by simple change of moutain attack/defence modifiers of their units.

Adding to that event with mobilization (10 units?) and lowering infra that could make them really hard to annex.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Twisted_Mentat
Hrm....i just assumed it was a Light bomber, and they needed to develop a long ranged Bomber that could reach deep into tbe soviet union to attack the factories there, not in using Tactical bombers...HE111s were used by the Condor legion bombing of Gurnica...er...how ever its spelt.

He-111 was the sucessor of Ju-86 (also used in Spain) as the main tactical bomber of Luftwaffe. As slow and weak in defence it was later replaced by Ju-88 (fast bomber). The fact that they bombed cities with those doesn't make them strategic bombers - Luftwaffe simply had no strategic bomber to use.

All German pre-war air doctrine was developed to support "Blitz" - so tactical bombers (medium range - attacks on second line of defence, supply lines, command centers disruption) and dive bombers (ground support) were needed. Lutwaffe planners didn't expect long war, so bombers able to haul huge payload on the long distance seemed unneccessary.

I understand why Paradox used He-111 sprite as strat bomber (there is great, famous photo of this plane on the bombing run over London), but it's wrong anyway.

Originally posted by Twisted_Mentat
BTW, in the above postings of the wrong tank types being linked ot techs, its still occuring...my Panzer 70mm S are in actual fact Panzer IV (MG)...s and thats with both the patches installed on it...

Weird... You still play old save game, right? You have to start new game to get changes from the hotfix work...
Or maybe you copied it in wrong directory?

Both files (armor_tech.txt and land_doctrine_tech.txt) should go to .../mod-CORE/db/tech/

 

[Josip]

Divisional Reorganization

I don not know if this has been discussed before, but have you thought about implementing a country specific division?
For example: you know that German Infantry divisions counted around 9000-12000 men, had less equipment than American/British/Western, also Soviets had 4500-6000 men per division, also less equiped than American, on the other side Allies had 12000-20000 men per division, very good equiped...
You could impelement that say like this:

Manpower IC SoftAttack HardAttack Defense Time
German 5 4 1 1 2 70
Allied 17 8 3 2 6 95
Soviet 3 2 1 1 2 65

Of course those stats would change with tech advance, and every nation could have it's own tech that activates each div. type. Something like those special techs used for Germany(I believe it's Blitzkrieg), France(Verdun Experience) and Soviets(Political Control Over Army and Great Patriotic War)...

 

[Iron Marshal]

Attack of the Killer Minisubs

I don't know who is responsible for creating the new "Small Electro Submarine" sub class, but I strongly suggest that you reconsider its cost and effectiveness parameters.

In my copy of CORE, the small electro sub costs 4 IC and takes 60 days to produce, while the regular electro sub costs 6 IC and takes 150 days. So you can build 3.75 small subs for the price of one large one. The small sub has a sea attack of 4, while the large has a sea attack of 8. So right away the small sub is an attractive alternative, as you get more sea attack points for your buck.

But when things really get nasty is when you consider the effect of Ship Assembly Construction Process technology. This takes the cost of the small sub down to 3 IC and 25 days, while the large electro sub costs 5 IC and 115 days with the tech. So now you can buy nearly 8 (7.67, actually) small subs for the price of 1 large.

And it gets worse (or better, depending on your point of view). There are lots of techs that augment the sea attack values of subs, and it's not very hard to accumulate a total increase of +8 or more. At +8, the small sub now has an attack of 12, while the large sub has a 16. But considering that the small sub is so cheap and can be produced in under a month, it's an overwhelmingly effective weapon.

These small subs are overpowered, or alternatively too cheap. They're so cheap with construction tech that a nation can easily pump out hundreds of them and simply overwhelm enemy ASW with numbers.

When you consider how they're augmented with technology, small electro subs go from an interesting strategic alternative to a game-breaking superweapon. I recommend (at least) increasing the build time considerably to bring the game back in balance.

 

[Generalisimo]

Good observation... next time do it in the proper thread....
Our specialist in the Naval tech tree will answer that...
But as far as i know, all the subs were changed for the new version.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Attack of the Killer Minisubs

Originally posted by Iron Marshal
But when things really get nasty is when you consider the effect of Ship Assembly Construction Process technology. This takes the cost of the small sub down to 3 IC and 25 days, while the large electro sub costs 5 IC and 115 days with the tech. So now you can buy nearly 8 (7.67, actually) small subs for the price of 1 large.

Yeap, it will change in CORE 0.6. Subs default org will be only 15%, defense value is much lower, and Mass Production effect is limited.

Originally posted by Iron Marshal
And it gets worse (or better, depending on your point of view). There are lots of techs that augment the sea attack values of subs, and it's not very hard to accumulate a total increase of +8 or more. At +8, the small sub now has an attack of 12, while the large sub has a 16. But considering that the small sub is so cheap and can be produced in under a month, it's an overwhelmingly effective weapon.

You are of course aware, that range of those subs really limits their effectiveness? Those subs can't be properly used on the Pacific or any long distance - you can't block UK with those. This sub is coastal, defensive weapon.

Originally posted by Iron Marshal
I recommend (at least) increasing the build time considerably to bring the game back in balance.

Whole sub system in 0.CORE 5/0.51 was seriously unbalanced. The fact that AI got no time to develop decent ASW weapons only made this effect stronger. Just picture it itself - german 1944 small electro subs vs pre-war ASW technology - that would be a slaughter...

I'm pretty sure 0.6 version of our mod will have submarine warfare much more balanced and realistic.

 

[MateDow]

Re: Attack of the Killer Minisubs

Originally posted by Iron Marshal
I don't know who is responsible for creating the new "Small Electro Submarine" sub class, but I strongly suggest that you reconsider its cost and effectiveness parameters.

In my copy of CORE, the small electro sub costs 4 IC and takes 60 days to produce, while the regular electro sub costs 6 IC and takes 150 days. So you can build 3.75 small subs for the price of one large one. The small sub has a sea attack of 4, while the large has a sea attack of 8. So right away the small sub is an attractive alternative, as you get more sea attack points for your buck.

But when things really get nasty is when you consider the effect of Ship Assembly Construction Process technology. This takes the cost of the small sub down to 3 IC and 25 days, while the large electro sub costs 5 IC and 115 days with the tech. So now you can buy nearly 8 (7.67, actually) small subs for the price of 1 large.

And it gets worse (or better, depending on your point of view). There are lots of techs that augment the sea attack values of subs, and it's not very hard to accumulate a total increase of +8 or more. At +8, the small sub now has an attack of 12, while the large sub has a 16. But considering that the small sub is so cheap and can be produced in under a month, it's an overwhelmingly effective weapon.

These small subs are overpowered, or alternatively too cheap. They're so cheap with construction tech that a nation can easily pump out hundreds of them and simply overwhelm enemy ASW with numbers.

When you consider how they're augmented with technology, small electro subs go from an interesting strategic alternative to a game-breaking superweapon. I recommend (at least) increasing the build time considerably to bring the game back in balance.

I also answered this question on the naval section of the forum. Not sure why I copied and pasted it over there but I did. MDow

 

[Iron Marshal]

Re: Re: Attack of the Killer Minisubs

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
You are of course aware, that range of those subs really limits their effectiveness? Those subs can't be properly used on the Pacific or any long distance - you can't block UK with those. This sub is coastal, defensive weapon.

I'm pretty sure 0.6 version of our mod will have submarine warfare much more balanced and realistic.

Supply subs and long range engines extend that range 2000 miles, which makes them a useful blockade weapon. In the game I'm playing as the USA, I completely destroyed the Japanese merchant navy in three months with 27 of those subs based out of Guam. I expect they're even more game-breaking in German hands.

Good to hear it's being reconsidered. Continuous adaptations like this can only make the game better.