C.O.R.E. : Technology tree - support, ideas, problems...

[unmerged(14683)]

Ok, here is the thread which I intend as a support for players who got problems with the new CORE tech tree. It's also right place to suggest new ideas for it.
If you check forum you will probably see, that there are already 3 threads of similar topics:

1) Industry and Economy ,

2) Naval techs ,

3) Land techs and doctrines .

So far those threads were sufficient, but after release of CORE 0.4 (with integrated techmod) I think that new thread could be usefull.

Please, feel free to post there any questions to the new tech tree, as well as new ideas and observations from your games.

 

[Generalisimo]

it looks like it worked, because almost nobody complains about it...

 

[Steel]

The TechMod is excellent MateDow, Copper Nicus and others have done great work.

 

[unmerged(17986)]

I Like it but....

Not a complant but a question.

It seems that playing Germany in 3 Games, after overrunning Poland in `38 and France in 1940 I cannot emulate the historical development and deployment of both Ground and Air weapons, while building an Army large enough, with enough quality, to take on Russia.

Specifically, I get PZIVF2 and Me109Es by 1941, but that`s it, even putting about 150 + IC`s into research every year I am at 1945 and no improved Tanks ( Tigers ) or AC ( FW190`s )... ( yes their Org is through the roof ) but it seems that you can`t get there from here in the new 1.05/CORE Tech Tree. Maybe that`s not important, but maybe it is ...?

My games always end up with a stalemate VS Russia by 1946, they don`t surrender even with Leningrad, Moscow & Stalingrad captured and I just get tired of hammering at their 45+ Inf. Div. stacks.

Let me say that 1.05, especially with CORE is an exceptional gaming experience, in fact a new game, and maybe I am a bad player but something doesn`t feel right over the 20+ hour 1936 start Game.

 

[Vandelay]

That´s funny cause in my current (playing UK) game (1.05, 0.51, Hard/ Normal) I´m trying to fight off German PzIV (short 70mm) in autumn of 39. Not so phoney... Especially since my best tank is currently the Basic Light Tank (MG)!!! I won´t have better tanks til summer of 40.

Otherwise the mod is just FINE. The Naval part of the tech tree is very confusing for someone who hasn´t played C.O.R.E before - this led to me neglecting the ASW capabilities of my destroyers.

My one dislike of the Naval tech tree is that subs pack the most punch for the money - so rationally I should build only subs and some destroyers (to fight the enemy subs...).

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[unmerged(17986)]

Originally posted by Vandelay
That´s funny cause in my current (playing UK) game (1.05, 0.51, Hard/ Normal) I´m trying to fight off German PzIV (short 70mm) in autumn of 39. Not so phoney... Especially since my best tank is currently the Basic Light Tank (MG)!!! I won´t have better tanks til summer of 40.

Otherwise the mod is just FINE. The Naval part of the tech tree is very confusing for someone who hasn´t played C.O.R.E before - this led to me neglecting the ASW capabilities of my destroyers.

My one dislike of the Naval tech tree is that subs pack the most punch for the money - so rationally I should build only subs and some destroyers (to fight the enemy subs...).

Cheers,
Vandelay

Yes, I can see that if you neglect everything else, but they will still have just that short 70mm by `42 I guess.

I`m not complaining, just curious on the what`s under the hood and the thinking behind it. Then again, maybe I just suck at the Tech Tree part...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by APC
Yes, I can see that if you neglect everything else, but they will still have just that short 70mm by `42 I guess.

I`m not complaining, just curious on the what`s under the hood and the thinking behind it. Then again, maybe I just suck at the Tech Tree part...

Advanced and higher levels of tanks needs Industry technology "Quality control" as a prerequisite. You can make prototype, but to implement tank models you have to get ALL prereqisites. The same thing with advanced/rocket/turbojet planes.

About improved planes - check all prereqisites. I'm positevely sure, that those are researchable, since in all my games USA attacks me with those in 1941.

Vandelay@:

Have you invested in tanks research? Basic light MG tanks are available in 1936, so unitil 1939 there is plenty of time to research something better. BTW, those Pz IV were D version, Germans started using those in 1938, so are valid. It's the problem with multiple basic medium tank models - AI can choose only one and chooses the best one (Pz IVD), but in this category is also Pz IIIe and other early war GER tanks.

 

[Vandelay]

Have you invested in tanks research?

Nope...

Part of my "House rules" for UK - no Early War doctrines researched until war has actually broken out, no independent fully formed tank divisions before 1940, no massive destroyer stacks prior to the war etc.

I was just surprised that all the German tanks I´ve encountered were Pz IV´s - I think I´ve read somewhere that the Germans had only very, very few of them prior to Barbarossa.

It´s irritating though that having Basic Light Tank (MG) at start makes it impossible to make any other model of light tank.

I`m not complaining, just curious on the what`s under the hood and the thinking behind it. Then again, maybe I just suck at the Tech Tree part...

Wasn´t meant as criticism - just an observation that the German AI seems to focus a lot on tank research (as it should).

It´s a little irritating though that the Italians have triple the sub fleet than what the Germans have. No real battle for the Atlantic...

Maybe the German AI should focus more on subs?

Cheers,
Vandelay

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Vandelay
Nope...

Part of my "House rules" for UK - no Early War doctrines researched until war has actually broken out, no independent fully formed tank divisions before 1940, no massive destroyer stacks prior to the war etc.
I was just surprised that all the German tanks I´ve encountered were Pz IV´s - I think I´ve read somewhere that the Germans had only very, very few of them prior to Barbarossa.
It´s irritating though that having Basic Light Tank (MG) at start makes it impossible to make any other model of light tank.

About historical timing of PzIVD - true. Unfortunately AI is not smart enough to let it have more models available.

Originally posted by Vandelay
Wasn´t meant as criticism - just an observation that the German AI seems to focus a lot on tank research (as it should).

Yup. But the research is not directed by paths, so effectively they are much slower in that then Soviets, USA or even UK AI's. Otherwise they would have all - manpower (thanks to allies), techs, high org and huge IC.

Originally posted by Vandelay
It´s a little irritating though that the Italians have triple the sub fleet than what the Germans have. No real battle for the Atlantic...

In 1939 Germans had 37 subs, and only few of them were ready to go for Atlantic. Germans starts serious building of subs in seelion.ai, so if it's not that impossible to see a lot of them.

 

[Raczynski]

Orginally pointed by JeanBaptiste in other think:

is there any reason at all to pursue armor anymore? playing as germany and japan, i dont see any reason to build/research anything armor related, as the infantry's hard/soft attack and defense seems to be much greater than armor could hope to be until much later in the game... just wondering...

I have similary feelings... everything before Adv.Medium 70+ (I usually have them by 1941) seems to be rather.... useless. I still use my basic medium tanks for historical and roleplay reasons, but mechanized is probably the better investment - faster than panzers, better soft attack and is considered as 'hard target', you can have them in large numbers by 1939...

 

[unmerged(15893)]

Originally posted by Raczynski
Orginally pointed by JeanBaptiste in other think:
I have similary feelings... everything before Adv.Medium 70+ (I usually have them by 1941) seems to be rather.... useless. I still use my basic medium tanks for historical and roleplay reasons, but mechanized is probably the better investment - faster than panzers, better soft attack and is considered as 'hard target', you can have them in large numbers by 1939...

Well, I agree and disagree. The mech and motorized ARE faster than tanks, but it seems to me that for some reason, tanks last a lot longer in combat than the mech/mot do. Also, tanks can be built upon a lot more. At first, tanks are very weak, but if you put a lot into research, the tanks become much more powerful and faster than the infantry, and they become stronger than the mech/mot. Playing as a country like the U.S.S.R. or the U.S., you could really research a lot and get the tanks very powerful relatively early.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by MartyWolf
Well, I agree and disagree. The mech and motorized ARE faster than tanks, but it seems to me that for some reason, tanks last a lot longer in combat than the mech/mot do. Also, tanks can be built upon a lot more. At first, tanks are very weak, but if you put a lot into research, the tanks become much more powerful and faster than the infantry, and they become stronger than the mech/mot. Playing as a country like the U.S.S.R. or the U.S., you could really research a lot and get the tanks very powerful relatively early.

Agree. As you probably noticed, even low stats tanks are much better then similar stats infantry. It's most of the time thanks to hidden modifiers - tanks got special "shock" value and high surprise modifier. If you got copy of the old manual (I know, it's crap, but this part is quite good), check that. Or simply try in play.
About mechanized - in CORE early mech is also very weak, is starts getting better around impr. tanks level.
What's more - to build mech you need (in CORE 0.5) quite advanced doctrine. I understand you refer to Germany - rest of the countires can't get mechanized that easy.

Conclusion - tankettes and infantry tanks are good only against milita, and only sometimes. With my basic medium tanks I won Barabarossa in CORE. Of course infantry was crucial in making breakthrough by 20+ stacks of SOV, but later tanks were the ones that dealed with T-34. I agree, that with decent tactical attack planes infantry + mech can be a similarly good option, but... well, I never tried.

 

[Raczynski]

I wasn`t know about this hidden paramets... now It`s clear. And you`re right about this mechanized too. In my game I`m the only one who produce them . BTW I have the best HoI game ever: UK constantly bomb my cities (one more time and Goering will be purged ), I was ably only to puppet Norway (high losses in the mountains), and this russian T-34

P.S. First event about purges neets corections (wrong leaders ID`s), but you probably noticed that

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Raczynski

P.S. First event about purges neets corections (wrong leaders ID`s), but you probably noticed that

Yeap, I've send Generalissimo corrected version. Those changes in id's in 1.05 were really annoing, I hope it's the last event that needs corrects...

 

[unmerged(18218)]

Problem with disel generators

Edit:

Sorry i tried to post this to the tech tree thread but it did not work. Then I could delete or move it. I am new to the forum. The original post has been reposted in the proper forum.

 

[unmerged(18218)]

Problem with Disel generators

I have tried to post this 3 times now hopefully I have this right now and it will not be deleted. On a related question is there a faq for newbies?

Anyway to the point. In the tech tree with version 5 I can not research disel generators as the British. The only prereq listed is advanced shipbuilding but it is grouped with improved marine technology. It is seems disel engines and improve marine engineering should be prereq's. The tech. numbers could be miskeyed causing the problem.

John

 

[unmerged(18218)]

Tank techs

I really like core but it bugs me that research a tank deactivates other tanks in the category, ie. research 30 mm medium tank (PZIII E) deactives a 70 mm medium tank (PZIII J). Historically the German tanks were upgraded before and during early the stages of Barbarossa. It would be nice to research higher calibre guns and upgrade your current classes rather than having to wait for the next better tank class and possibly wait until you research the highest calibre gun before getting the tank.

In Shep's mod. he changed the deactivation to where you could research different tanks in the same class but with bigger guns. Is this possible to do with core or is there a way to make the stats higher when you upgrade a tank to the same class after you have researched bigger guns.

Perhaps, the tech could be limited to only light, medium, heavy, improved light, etc. and bigger tanks guns give +X to hard attack and + or - X to soft attack when tanks are upgraded. So you would research medium tank protype then medium tank. When built the tank would have the bonus for the highest calibre gun gun research and/or allowed for that class added. Like what happens with aircraft. This would simplify the tech tree and allow countries to have the same class of tank with multiple calibers as all countries did, ie. PZIII mods., the many mods. to the Sherman, PZIV mods., all sorts of mods to British tank classes.

 

[jdrou]

Re: Problem with Disel generators

Originally posted by tristam509
Anyway to the point. In the tech tree with version 5 I can not research disel generators as the British. The only prereq listed is advanced shipbuilding but it is grouped with improved marine technology. It is seems disel engines and improve marine engineering should be prereq's. The tech. numbers could be miskeyed causing the problem.

John

Looks like Diesel Generator (naval tech 6724) has "required = { 6112 }" but there is no tech #6112. (I believe Advanced Shipbuilding shows up without being specified since it is the last theory in the tech file before that application).

 

[MateDow]

Diesel Generator

The solution to the Diesel Generator problem is posted over in the Naval Mod string. You are correct the problem was a refence to a tech that didn't exist. MDow

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Tank techs

Originally posted by tristam509
I really like core but it bugs me that research a tank deactivates other tanks in the category, ie. research 30 mm medium tank (PZIII E) deactives a 70 mm medium tank (PZIII J). Historically the German tanks were upgraded before and during early the stages of Barbarossa. It would be nice to research higher calibre guns and upgrade your current classes rather than having to wait for the next better tank class and possibly wait until you research the highest calibre gun before getting the tank.

In Shep's mod. he changed the deactivation to where you could research different tanks in the same class but with bigger guns. Is this possible to do with core or is there a way to make the stats higher when you upgrade a tank to the same class after you have researched bigger guns.

Perhaps, the tech could be limited to only light, medium, heavy, improved light, etc. and bigger tanks guns give +X to hard attack and + or - X to soft attack when tanks are upgraded. So you would research medium tank protype then medium tank. When built the tank would have the bonus for the highest calibre gun gun research and/or allowed for that class added. Like what happens with aircraft. This would simplify the tech tree and allow countries to have the same class of tank with multiple calibers as all countries did, ie. PZIII mods., the many mods. to the Sherman, PZIV mods., all sorts of mods to British tank classes.

It's all matter of that what the designer aimed for. MKShepp aimed for giving as many options for player as possible. On the other hand, AI part was totally abandoned. Not criticising Shepp, after all whole new tank tree is his idea, but you probably noticed, that playing tank mod is easier then vanilla HoI? AI is simply not able to choose proper tank techs and it will be inventing one model after another. This problem can be reduced by creating "research paths", but it never can be fully removed.

Deactivation is mainly AI supporting change. I will run some extra tests to see, if with very detailed AI research paths it's possible to remove deactivation, but for now it should stay. Otherwise it's perfectly possible, that when you start your invasion on USA in 1944, you will face M3 Stuarts.