C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[unmerged(30811)]

upgrade

hi
i was wondering in a new version of core is it possible to edit the upgrade button. So when you upgrade a ship, plane, tank etc it upgrades the unit till it cant be upgraded anymore untill the new research is completed. I find it annoying to have to keep upgrading, units are in the pool wasting construction points only being upgraded all the time instead out fighting. I dont know if this a bug or not but it has been like this since the game has come out. Hope you's can understand what i'm trying to say and if there is some way to edit this.

 

[d0mbo]

hi
i was wondering in a new version of core is it possible to edit the upgrade button. So when you upgrade a ship, plane, tank etc it upgrades the unit till it cant be upgraded anymore untill the new research is completed

Errrrm... i thought it already does this. But perhaps i misunderstand you

Anyway i think the upgrade is hardcoded zo not moddable for C.O.R.E. people.


Maybe something for HOI2 then

 

[Ilkhold]

Hope you's can understand what i'm trying to say and if there is some way to edit this.

I tried to read it three times now, and I cannot make out what you are saying. Maybe you can try again with special attention to grammar.
Maybe you just don't know the following facts about upgrading:
1) You do not need to upgrade units, units without the highest possible stats can also be used in the field effectively.
2) Build orders (and upgrade orders) do determine cost and length of the process, but they do not determine the stats. Those will be assigned when first placing the unit on the map after the process is complete.

 

[wstein]

SU events

hi,

in the core 0.82, just a suggestion,

the great patriotic war (1IC in 7600 days) must automaticly delevery when germans DOW to the SU.



i think in mp in Mp it would be more realistic too.

 

[Crazyhorse]

That docterine is given only to the AI not to human players. And it is given when GER controls a number of SOV provinces.

Human players don't need it also. I remember losing to you Wstein and you did not had this docterine.

 

[Ghost_dk]

gzav, please merge the thread with this one http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82447

Ghost_dk

 

[HistoryMan]

Tank models

As it stands now, when you develop an early model of a tank (eg Basic Medium Tank 30+ mm) it deactivates all the later techs to develop heavier versions of that model.

To me, this seems very unrealistic, and can cause horrible snags where by you find yourself stuck with 50mm Pz III's for about 3 yrs, unable to develop a 75mm Pz IV, and then suddenly, you can build Panther IIs or something.

My solution (that I use myself, and I feel is supported by historical developments) is to have each tank tech for a new model deactivate the EARLIER models, but leave the later ones open as techs you can still research.

This allows the situation whereby you start of with Pz IIIs with 37mm guns, upgrade them to 50 mm, and eventually maybe even to 75mm CS guns. Similarly, early Pz IVs with 75mm CS guns get upgraded to 75 mm (medium). Or for the British, a Crusader Mk I, with 2 pdr (40mm), then the Crusader Mk II or II, with 6 pdr (57mm). Shermans - 75mm medium originally, then you get the American 76mm versions and the UK Sherman Firefly with 17 pdr. Even the T34 goes from a 76mm gun to the 85mm. That is all 4 major Tank producing nations in WW2 following this "upgrade" path, so it looks pretty historical to me

Anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Tim

 

[jdrou]

I believe the major reason for the tank model deactivations was that if you didn't do that the AI would research every model which is a huge waste of ICs. Your deactivating only earlier models wouldn't help that problem. I don't know if anyone has found a workaround for that.

 

[Crazyhorse]

I believe the major reason for the tank model deactivations was that if you didn't do that the AI would research every model which is a huge waste of ICs. Your deactivating only earlier models wouldn't help that problem. I don't know if anyone has found a workaround for that.

This is correct.

There is a workaround for this. Only this would require for every tank model 2 more techs. So that is not a good option.

 

[HistoryMan]

This is correct.

There is a workaround for this. Only this would require for every tank model 2 more techs. So that is not a good option.

I did consider an option whereby you have new "upgrade" techs to activate the new models, assuming you have researched the earlier tank model, you just get a (pretty quick/cheap) tech to activate the new model once you get the relevant tank gun model.

To be honest, I'd prefer this, rather than the current situation, which always feels extremely frustrating to me - I can remember games where I would be almost literally tearing my hair out, trying to see why I couldn't research the tech for new tank models by mid-war.

Perhaps the cost for techs to activate the new models shoudl be reduced, to avoid the IC waste - after all, once you have built your basic tank chassis, everything else tends to be a "bolt on" until you move to a new design. So perhaps the cost for the prototype might be increased a little, then make the actual production models relatively cheap instead ? There should be some cost associated with producing a new model - designs have to be tested, problems ironed out, etc, even if your mechanical chassis is more or less sorted - extra armour might slow it down, say, or a new engine might speed it up, or over power the drive train, as well as the difficulties of installing a new gun and redoing ammo storage, etc.

The big costs should still arise for when you move to a new base chassis - eg when you first develop medium Tanks, then the Improved medium tanks, then Advanced tanks, etc. But the intermediate steps, to get the new models, just with (essentially) bigger guns, should be quite cheap, IMO

Tim

 

[Ghost_dk]

the cost of the individual model also includes the cost for refitting your factories AFAIK, but Copper Nicus would probably be the best at answering that question.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I though another reason why we didn't have multiple tank models like that because once the AI researched, for example, the 20mm light tank they would upgrade all their MG light tanks en mass but by the time the upgrades where finished the AI would have discovered the 37mm light tanks and then upgrade all their new 20mm tanks to 37mm light tanks etc. etc. Therefore the AI would have huge gaps in it's armour capabilities

 

[HistoryMan]

Hmm.. seems like its the AI that is causing the problem here, again.. making problems for the human player !

Does anyone know the formula for how long a unit takes to upgrade / its IC cost ? If the tank models arent that far apart, the difference may be quite small, so the AI pulling stuff out for upgrades might not take that long.

Meanwhile, I shall go and scratch my head and consider ways to get round this problem - perhaps using some AI / Human only techs.

Whilst I am at it.. lol.. I had some other thoughts for Tank techs. At the moment there are 2 sorts of suspension (Christie or Vickers) and 2 sorts of Hull (Cast or Rivetted). Is the idea that you would ignore both to select the "alternative" as it were, rather than having a named tech ? For instance, the Sherman uses Vertical Volute suspension (early models - late models have Horizontal Volute suspension) whilst Pz III, Pz IV, Tiger, etc all use Torsion bar suspension. And the Pz III/IV use welded hulls - are these meant to be the "default" settings, as it were ? (ie dont bother researching any of the above techs)

Tim

 

[jdrou]

Model upgrades are always 3/4 IC cost and 1/2 time compared to a new unit and not modified by ministers or tech. No way I know of to mod this unfortunately.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Hmm.. seems like its the AI that is causing the problem here, again.. making problems for the human player !

Does anyone know the formula for how long a unit takes to upgrade / its IC cost ? If the tank models arent that far apart, the difference may be quite small, so the AI pulling stuff out for upgrades might not take that long.

Then the AI will wait until it's upgrades are done and immediately upgrade to the next best tank when it's done to. So making the tech cheaper wouldn't work either.

Meanwhile, I shall go and scratch my head and consider ways to get round this problem - perhaps using some AI / Human only techs.

Whilst I am at it.. lol.. I had some other thoughts for Tank techs. At the moment there are 2 sorts of suspension (Christie or Vickers) and 2 sorts of Hull (Cast or Rivetted). Is the idea that you would ignore both to select the "alternative" as it were, rather than having a named tech ? For instance, the Sherman uses Vertical Volute suspension (early models - late models have Horizontal Volute suspension) whilst Pz III, Pz IV, Tiger, etc all use Torsion bar suspension. And the Pz III/IV use welded hulls - are these meant to be the "default" settings, as it were ? (ie dont bother researching any of the above techs)

Tim

Your right about the suspension, more suspension tech never hurt anyone! And Espexially Torision Bar suspension. I've been thinking that maybe there should be some late war suspension techs to, after all it's very weird having your new MTB's with Vicker's suspension! :wacko:

 

[HistoryMan]

More thoughts on Tanks !

a) Vickers suspension is basically for "light" (in weight terms!) tanks only - the "classic" model is the Vickers 6 ton tank - many versions of which are seen (eg Pz 35(t)/LT-35, T-26, M13/40, etc). This suspension design just doesnt work for larger/heavier tanks, as far as I know. Is it also meant to cover the kind of suspension used by the Sherman and (say) the French S-35 & R-35 ?

b) Perhaps there might be a tech for Armour along the lines of the naval tech for destroyers - concentrate on 1 design, and use versions of that for everything, or have many specialised designs. The former approach would be seen in America's general tank designs in WW2, the latter in the UK's or Germany's proliferation of designs. This latter option should perhaps also give the option for "Funnies", which should probabaly be a tech for Engineer Brigades adding some shore attack/fortress attack etc

Thoughts/comments, please

Tim

 

[Semi-Lobster]

"Funnies" where essential specialised vehicles that where never built in large numbers and shouldn't be restricted.

As for the Vickers suspension covering the Sherman S-35 and R-35 I assumed those came from the option of not bothering to research either which has a charm of it's own if you want to keep cost down while not making the performance of your armour suffer

 

[HistoryMan]

"Funnies" where essential specialised vehicles that where never built in large numbers and shouldn't be restricted.

Hmmm - but depending on waht you call "Funnies" I'd be tempted to argue that only the Brits really built any - possibly the Germans on a small scale, with the Brummbar, etc, although obviously they didnt really go for the beach assault vehicles (never any need for it)

To be honest, a number of the amphibious tank techs look a bit specialised - I'd be tempted to push them into this more specialised branch, though I can see the arguments for leaving as they are.

This, combined with the possible re jig of tank models (to try and avoid the upgrading problems/ blocking of later models) suggests that possibly the Armour tech tree needs a bit of a rethink/tweak - which might also "spill over"
into the Artillery tree, vis-a-vis tank guns

Anyone else had any thoughts on this topic ?

Tim

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well I guess we're both right depending what you consider 'funnies' a major factor to consider is where these AFV's purpose built or where they field modifications and in the case of the many Churchill and Sherman funnies which mostly where purpose built, I concede victory to you Historyman

Actually I've been thinking alot about the armour tech recently, firstly we need some later war tech to counter the different choices in suspension, none of the majors where using Vickers suspensioned tanks this late in the war except Japan (mainly because due to American strategic bombings and therefore had to continue making crappy tanks even though they had already designed much better AFV's), secondly we need some terribly basic tech like two man turrets.

 

[Gwalcmai]

But the "funnies" really argue against the setup you wanted. Choosing the german approach of many designs would allow you to do something the UK did using largely the standard single american design?