C.O.R.E. Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

[jdrou]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
me too...
in my last game as Japan, i have a lot of problems attacking China in mountain provinces because my units arrived with 10 ORG or less...

Use mountain divisions (speed 3 vs other leg units speed 2).
They also don't suffer the -40% or -80% attack penalties in mountains.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Steel
It is a WAD though, Paradox wanted it this way to make ground warfare in low infra / rough terrain very hard. You can work around it by using massed tactical air and then just dropping a couple of para divisions on the enemy.

Originally posted by jdrou
Use mountain divisions (speed 3 vs other leg units speed 2).
They also don't suffer the -40% or -80% attack penalties in mountains.

I used a combination of both posts, i bombed the hell out of there, and used my new mountain troops.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: re: Elite Units? Blitzkreig?

Originally posted by mvsnconsolegene
I think the addition of elite units is a great idea. I do not like, however, how Germany seems to be given an advantage in these areas though. I think it should definately be possible for other Elite Units to be made in other countries. The SS didn't appear over 8000 days.

Consider a 600 day timelimit for the important techs, at an extremely low IC (10).

Verdun experience, etc. is all well and good; but other countries should be able to research Elite Doctrines and create elite divisions

- MVSN

After some time I decided, that 'Elite' variants of standard units close to the concept suggested by MKShepp were present only in Werhmacht. In other armies 'elites' were not that obvious - they had not separate recruitment, supply lines, organization, equipment... Other 'elite' troops, like paras, marine and moutain troops got org bonus, so you can count them as an equivalent of German elites.

Soviet Guards are usually showed as a example, that not only Germans had 'elite' versions of standard troops. But the genesis of guard units is totally different - standard units could become 'guard' on the battlefield only. Usually after loosing 80% of it's power and acheving grand victiory. Some time ago I read about units created as a guards from the start, but hose were paras mustered into general infantry ranks. Other exceptions were rocket artillery brigades and IS heavy tank regiments.
Bat basically 'guard' was honorary title, not some sort of different organisational/recrutiment structure.
I would have to change description though...


But getting straigth to the point - I understand you would like to see Bersaglieri units?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by nachinus
You should have seen my invasion attemps in Afghanistan, it was pathetic.

And theres no other way to attack it!, apart from paras, of course.

I believe that was the point of change...

But seriously, we tested speed 4 for all the infantry and it made game too fast. So we are back to 3.

I heard that in the next patch org loss will be cut by half though...

 

[unmerged(13241)]

Re: Re: re: Elite Units? Blitzkreig?

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
After some time I decided, that 'Elite' variants of standard units close to the concept suggested by MKShepp were present only in Werhmacht. In other armies 'elites' were not that obvious - they had not separate recruitment, supply lines, organization, equipment... Other 'elite' troops, like paras, marine and moutain troops got org bonus, so you can count them as an equivalent of German elites.

Soviet Guards are usually showed as a example, that not only Germans had 'elite' versions of standard troops. But the genesis of guard units is totally different - standard units could become 'guard' on the battlefield only. Usually after loosing 80% of it's power and acheving grand victiory. Some time ago I read about units created as a guards from the start, but hose were paras mustered into general infantry ranks. Other exceptions were rocket artillery brigades and IS heavy tank regiments.
Bat basically 'guard' was honorary title, not some sort of different organisational/recrutiment structure.
I would have to change description though...


But getting straigth to the point - I understand you would like to see Bersaglieri units?

So what makes units elite? The guards were elite becouse they a) recived better equipment then the line divisions. (Once a division was guards it got more tanks, got the newest models first...)
b) had a larger espirit de corps, as they considered themself the best soldiers of the Sovjet union.
c) were all battlehardned

Now, I understand your point, the guards were not really build, but there is no other way to simulate this. Also, there should be a disadvanatge for the regular units which should suffer a org loss.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
i was about to ask the same... to my surprise, Hungary didn't have "Service Rifle" tech... and a lot of countries doesn't have it either...

In that period many nations had 'non-standard' infantry weapons - some pre-GW, some recieved as a trophies after the war... It caused several problems with supplies and ammo.

Service Rifle is IMO standard, modern (ehm, 1930' modern) infantry carbine (german Mauser, UK Lee-Enfield, russian Mosin) that is used by the whole army. Basically it's not important, that particular army got modern rifle model, but that it's common. So - no 'test version', no 'guards units were armed with...' but steady standard.

I gave Service Rifle to most european countries (Spain was left without to keep the balance - it gets this tech by events) and USA and Japan for sure.

If someone got good explaination why this tech should be added to particular nation - post the info, it will be added to the OOB.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Re: Re: Re: re: Elite Units? Blitzkreig?

Originally posted by madner
Now, I understand your point, the guards were not really build, but there is no other way to simulate this. Also, there should be a disadvanatge for the regular units which should suffer a org loss.

That, and the fact that AI will build only guards just after inventing proper doctrine.
In earlier version of Techmod elites were available to all nations and it caused massive 'elite' rush.

I pretty sure that Elites can't be given to all the nations. Now what should be the list of countries that are allowed to get them?

1) Germany,
2) USSR,
3) Italy? (although I'm a bit concerned about the balance of game when ITA will finally have well organized troops).

 

[unmerged(13241)]

France could get them if they would opt for the profesional army, instead of the larger reserve army they had.

(This would be De Gaules 100 000 men strong armoured divisions, if you add them I will fetch the fancy name they had )



Croatia, with the legions/ almost militia approch, again this should be connected to a org loss for the most other units.


As for the rush, as the AI doesn't build paratroopers the model could be added there, and the weapons modifier are about right

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by madner
France could get them if they would opt for the profesional army, instead of the larger reserve army they had.

(This would be De Gaules 100 000 men strong armoured divisions, if you add them I will fetch the fancy name they had )



Croatia, with the legions/ almost militia approch, again this should be connected to a org loss for the most other units.


As for the rush, as the AI doesn't build paratroopers the model could be added there, and the weapons modifier are about right

Hmmm... Not in 0.6, but later maybe we will return to that idea... But as you noted, that would require different kind of "elite" units, then those in current tech tree.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
In that period many nations had 'non-standard' infantry weapons - some pre-GW, some recieved as a trophies after the war... It caused several problems with supplies and ammo.

Service Rifle is IMO standard, modern (ehm, 1930' modern) infantry carbine (german Mauser, UK Lee-Enfield, russian Mosin) that is used by the whole army. Basically it's not important, that particular army got modern rifle model, but that it's common. So - no 'test version', no 'guards units were armed with...' but steady standard.

I gave Service Rifle to most european countries (Spain was left without to keep the balance - it gets this tech by events) and USA and Japan for sure.

If someone got good explaination why this tech should be added to particular nation - post the info, it will be added to the OOB.

When you changed that???
In my last game as Japan i gave Service Rifle to Hungary, Bulgaria & Romania. (all axis members )

I will try to gather more info on Hungary, but it is really difficult because all is in hungarian...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
When you changed that???
In my last game as Japan i gave Service Rifle to Hungary, Bulgaria & Romania. (all axis members )

I will try to gather more info on Hungary, but it is really dificult because all is in hungarian...

In 0.4?
Ok, maybe I forgot about some countires, but I hoped that someone will correct me. So far, you are the first.

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

Elite Units

But getting straigth to the point - I understand you would like to see Bersaglieri units?

I should think by now my Italiocentricity is fairly obvious.

Italy? (although I'm a bit concerned about the balance of game when ITA will finally have well organized troops).

Well; they should be able to get well organized troops if they really really want. Why not make the tech for it open to everybody; just a two or four year program?

- MVSN

 

[Steel]

Re: Elite Units

Originally posted by mvsnconsolegene
Well; they should be able to get well organized troops if they really really want. Why not make the tech for it open to everybody; just a two or four year program?

Surely that's already there - just research all the techs Why add another tech that will potentially break the AI and give the human player an easier game.

 

[mvsnconsolegene]

Unfortunately not...

The techs are not available to anyone besides germany. You cannot research them as anybody else. The base doctrines are not there; and the the ones that directly lead up to it take 8000 days, that's 21 years kids, to research.

As I've said, I suggest changing the prerequisits so that if a country really wants to they can have elite units by 39.

- MVSN

 

[Steel]

You misunderstand me. I am saying that if you want high org units then research land doctrines. Quite simple, no?

Regarding elites the point has been made that the AI does not handle build orders for these units very well. At this time I don't think anything that further handicaps the AI should be included.

 

[unmerged(13761)]

You could simply add some events that use the add divisions and give selected countries 2 to 4 elites unites per years, that way countries other than Germany will have them, and the number of them will be more historical. The united states had an Ranger Regiment, that was made up of I believe 6 Ranger battalions, with Rangers spearhead invasions in Africa and D-day, a nothing one Merles Marauders operated in S.E. Asia. This thread triggers (if possible) may somehow related to combat experience. this way the AI can’t go overboard with elites.

 

[unmerged(13761)]

o.k. since we can't use the model =, in events we can place them in the building obb start up as under development and have them come out 2-3 a years, like core used to make the german navy.that way we can also give them historic names.

 

[unmerged(6545)]

I just have one suggestion for the Tech Tree....when you research the MG type of tank, it dosn't deactivate the Cannon armed ones...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by blaylockm1207
You could simply add some events that use the add divisions and give selected countries 2 to 4 elites unites per years, that way countries other than Germany will have them, and the number of them will be more historical. The united states had an Ranger Regiment, that was made up of I believe 6 Ranger battalions, with Rangers spearhead invasions in Africa and D-day, a nothing one Merles Marauders operated in S.E. Asia. This thread triggers (if possible) may somehow related to combat experience. this way the AI can’t go overboard with elites.

It's impossible, events give you always last model invented. So - if country don't have the model (in your example - Rangers regiment), it can't get it by the event. And if USA will get the tech, AI will produce ONLY the Rangers.

The only countries with decent number of 'elites' in understanding of the this particular doctrine were Germans, and if we wide a bit a gap, Soviets.

I understand why would you like to see those units, but don't you think that playing UK and fighting counless Bersaglieri units, or Germans facing two Ranger Armies would totally spoil the game? Because I do.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Twisted_Mentat
I just have one suggestion for the Tech Tree....when you research the MG type of tank, it dosn't deactivate the Cannon armed ones...

It was discussed quite a time, but I understand you want only MG tanks changed? OK, I think it's good idea.