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HoI2 Shtrafnik
Feb 12, 2003
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Tech Tree: Land units, techs and doctrines

It's probably high time to start a tread about land techs in CORE mod.
As a base we would work on MKSheppard tech mod ver. 4i.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/wargames/HOI/TankMod


Personally, I must say - I love it. It got all the things I missed in original tree - French heavy tanks, tankettes, lots of upgrades for planes and so on. Also, there is more chance to give coutries their tech without losing balance of a game.

All this additions, however, resulted in many mayor changes in game. Of course it doesn't bother human players - but AI is totally unprepared for it.
As whole mod is rather huge, I suggest that we discuss land units and techs on this tread, leaving navy and planes to others.

Ok, here is some ideas about corrects in mod:

1) creating new tech preferences for AI's - most important part before adding tech mod to CORE. Technology tree in MKSheppard tech mod is vast and AI's are not good in choosing what kind of tank would be better for them. :D
Example - I played 1.03b with New Order mod and tech mod. In 1941 SOV best tank was T-35 - because AI tried to invent every tank tech available (first tankettes, then multiturret tanks and so on). The same happened with UK and USA. It leads us to...

2) deactivating techs - one of most fun parts of tech mod is ability to create many tanks od particular group (example: first basic medium tank 30mm, then basic medium tank 40mm and so on). Sadly, AI tries to invent EVERY variant, loosing time and resources. So - ability to create only one tank of particular group is a must. I hope that human playes are able to choose wisely. :)

2) supplies - most important part of tech mod is role of supplies. Thanks to changes made in artillery section (every artillery tech results in bigger use of supplies), army of 100 divs can eat 500 supplies a day!:eek:
It's of course realistic - but only when you choose if you want to add some piece of equipment to your army. Since in HoI all infantry upgrades are automatic, it results in sudden rise of supplies use. It was probably intended to limit number of units - but in my case it resulted in limiting tech research - I was afraid that after another upgrade I would have to disband part of my army to keep it work (actually, I had to do this anyway)! Of course human player could do this - but AI not.
I suggest limiting supply consumption to 0.1 max for every new tech, and in case of tech which actually take place of another, invented earler, not changing consumption at all (example - MG-34 and MG-42).

3) Elite units. Hmmm, those elite units were used only by Germany - adding here Soviet Guard units it's kind of misinterpetation. Soviet Guard were not handpicked - it was honorary title granted to the units, which played key role in important operation (or simply survived really bloody battle without routing). So there is not much examples of this elites? Also, there is no connection between "handpicked" personnel of this units and their performance - in may cases SS units were so good simply because they get best equipment and supplies. And fanaticism lead them to loosing much more manpower then in regular Wehrmacht units (actions like idiotic charge through the Arnhem bridge speak for themselves).
I suggest changing their org bonus to 10 (instead of 20), and adding supply consumption 0.2 (to recreate better rations and equipment needs).

Well, that's all for now. I wait for answer from people who would like to particpate in development of land techs in CORE.
 
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Will it have a more major role for doctrines? Including how to have the AI use doctrines properly and inactivation and activasion of unit types through doctrines (more than now). I like the idea and would like to help. However, let's have the discussion first and give me time to check out Sheppard's TechMod.
 
What is seriously needed is a tech tree to reflect tech in non-major, non-industrial countries.

Places like Ethiopia, Yemen and Liberia should have to spend time to reach the first levels of the current tree.

What needs to be added is techs for the following:
-Pre-WW1 tech (the level just above the level of really poor countries)
-WW1 Tech
-1920s tech
-early 1930s tech

Things like heavy air or water cooled machineguns, standardised uniforms and other stuff.

I know next to nothing about this area of technology, but it is a severe imbalance in the game...
 
I already had a look into that mod because it sounded interesting and ambitious... i must say it is impressive! Lots of new techs and so but:

1-i think that many of those techs aren´t really necessary, i don´t want to inflate the tech tree. A tech tree for any game must be carefully planned and tested, and adding new tech and branches without care will result in problems with balance, with the AI and so

2-There are lots of new tech that gives lots of bonus to units. So a unit that with the original tech tree could get to p.e 80 org, 7 soft attack, 5 hard attack..., with this mod it can get let´s say to 100 org, 11 soft attack 8 hard attack. Is the game balanced after those changes? Are the different units designed to keep its balance and relationship between them after those changes? I read in this mod´s forum that Mech infantry gets to be as effective as a Panzer div, and of course much cheaper. That´s the kind of drawbacks that i don´t want to face.

I agree with using some new techs that make the tech tree deeper and stick to designed gameplay, but adding and adding new techs, although they look good and are historical, could result in several 'side effects' in gameplay. Maybe if we add new techs, we could remove some effects of existing techs so they complement each other and the result in bonifications is the same as the original game.

Still, the AI isn´t prepared to choose in this new tree, as Copper Nicus said, and it will be a hard, hard, hard, hard work with hard, hard, hard, hard testing to make it use the new tree wisely so it doesn´t alter the game balance.

In conclusion: i would be extremelly cautious with intensive tech modding.
 
I agree with you nachinus, the tech tree looks great but balance is another thing. If you add something for one type you should add another for another type as well. Also what needs to be done IMO is to make sure no-one can research the entire tech tree by the end of the game in normal circumstances. I think some techs take too little time to develop for example.
 
Originally posted by nachinus
There are lots of new tech that gives lots of bonus to units. So a unit that with the original tech tree could get to p.e 80 org, 7 soft attack, 5 hard attack..., with this mod it can get let´s say to 100 org, 11 soft attack 8 hard attack. Is the game balanced after those changes? Are the different units designed to keep its balance and relationship between them after those changes? I read in this mod´s forum that Mech infantry gets to be as effective as a Panzer div, and of course much cheaper. That´s the kind of drawbacks that i don´t want to face.

Yeah, I had the same feeling, but after some games I must say that it's somehow balanced - all units gets those bonuses - battles are simply more deadly. One difference - first time bombers are worth they pay. But we discuss land here... :D

About mech and tanks - that is not true. All normal (medium tank and better) tank divs are much better then mech. Later they become similar, but it's quite historical. What is wrong with them is the speed (all mech and tank are 1.03 speed not 1.03b), but it's easy to correct.

Originally posted by nachinus
In conclusion: i would be extremelly cautious with intensive tech modding.

Couldn't agree more - that's why I want to make some variants of tech mod designed especially for CORE.
First step would be correcting *.inc files (to give all the countries their original 36 techs), then giving AI's right tech priorities (to ensure that historical tanks and equipment would show up), then testing...
What is really good in this mod is the fact, that you can start wich preGW technology - it's really good for all minors.
 
Originally posted by nachinus
Well, i don´t think that minors would agree with you:D :D ;) :p

:D
Well, what I wanted to say was "now we can give them their historical equipment", not some sort of paradox-balacing-ideas. :)

I'm quite happy then I can give Poland tankettes, HMG and preWW II tanks and still not damage balance of the game - since Germany and Soviets are way ahead.
 
Well, I just did my own tech changes, to make the game a bit more historical (no Panthers in 39). It looks really promising; i have panthers in m july 43, tigers in november 42, köningstigers in september 44 and Maus in may 45; this is with some electronic research. I think I'm gonna look at other nations now to balance it a bit more and then I'm gonna look at planes. One thing that I've done is changing all theoretical research times to 270 days instead of 180 days and it helps a lot, really.
 
Originally posted by emperor dennis
Well, I just did my own tech changes, to make the game a bit more historical (no Panthers in 39). It looks really promising; i have panthers in m july 43, tigers in november 42, köningstigers in september 44 and Maus in may 45; this is with some electronic research.

Ok Denis, but could you check if AI is able to do the same? :)
The main problem to deal with tech tree are not the players, but the dumb AI.
 
AI should normally be able to do the same :)
 
Originally posted by emperor dennis
AI should normally be able to do the same :)

"Should" is a very good word... :)
Most of the time, German, Soviet and American player use 80-90% of it's IC to boost research. In case of Germany, it ends in 1938 (SOV - 1939, USA -1940). Most of the time, human player develops only tanks, artillery, infantry and electronics. It gives HUGE difference to AI, which:
1) all this time creates units,
2) waste research points on useless (or at least - not most important) projects,
3) got problems with combining techs (so it very often creates bizzare designs like light tank 40mm as a main battle tank).

So, if you had Tiger II in 44-45, then AI would get them in... 1950? Or some extreme player will find the way to get them in 1941. :D

If Paradox won't add in 1.04 the AI command able to change percent of IC spent on research/production, there is probably no way to solve this. :(
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus
"Should" is a very good word... :)
Most of the time, German, Soviet and American player use 80-90% of it's IC to boost research. In case of Germany, it ends in 1938 (SOV - 1939, USA -1940). Most of the time, human player develops only tanks, artillery, infantry and electronics. It gives HUGE difference to AI, which:
1) all this time creates units,
2) waste research points on useless (or at least - not most important) projects,
3) got problems with combining techs (so it very often creates bizzare designs like light tank 40mm as a main battle tank).

So, if you had Tiger II in 44-45, then AI would get them in... 1950? Or some extreme player will find the way to get them in 1941. :D

If Paradox won't add in 1.04 the AI command able to change percent of IC spent on research/production, there is probably no way to solve this. :(
i agree with this post of Copper Nicus, if you can do it, it doesn't mean that the AI will do it, play with Afghanistan and see what the AI does... then you will have an idea of what the AI can do ;)
 
about this work, it looks like a good idea, but i agree with the entire post of Nachinus, and that's why the MKSheppard work has not been included in CORE 0.1.
Well, maybe we can discuss it more before start coding it ;)
When 0.2, if the project has become more "madure" we can begin coding it...
what do you think?
 
Well, that what this tread is all about. :)
For now, Shep's tech mod is ready only for human players.
I'll work with that (speed of units, tweaking supply problem), prepare AI preferences and post corrected version for tests with 0.2.

Edit: After releasing 0.2, of course. BTW, when? :)
 
Originally posted by Copper Nicus

Edit: After releasing 0.2, of course. BTW, when? :)
if i can know that... :(
i have some problem whith a pair of events, but i could not be able to detect which is the one that is "making troubles" in the game... as soon as i can detect it, i will have a stable version, so... ;)
 
Well, I checked my system out for Russian, American and Brittish tanks now. Everything seems to work ok in theory; and I think I can make it work for AI as well. Next up will be aircraft :)
 
Originally posted by emperor dennis
Well, I checked my system out for Russian, American and Brittish tanks now. Everything seems to work ok in theory; and I think I can make it work for AI as well. Next up will be aircraft :)

Ok, if you are interested in early betas of my work, no problem. For now I tweaked a bit tanks, reduced speed, corrected supply usage and made some changes intended to help AI (deactivating alternative tank models).
AI vs. AI battle works fine, but their development is still slow (1940 SOV generally use BT, Germans use PzIII 40mm). But after correcting AI's priorities and adding historical tech tree it should work fine...
 
Maybe we could cooperate? Exel is probablly gonna help as well...
Do you want to come to the IRC channel???
 
Originally posted by emperor dennis
Maybe we could cooperate? Exel is probablly gonna help as well...
Do you want to come to the IRC channel???

I'm at work now and got some problems with using IRC here :D,
but I could send you some of files by mail.

I would correct it a bit and send you tomorrow, ok?