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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Ghost_dk

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Ilkhold said:
Every nation could have done this, and would have if it was necessary. Do you want to make MP events for all countries? It won't work with random events, so you either write some hundred events or assume this effect already taken into account in the working MP system.

writing the events is not such a bit problem. Since they will all have a fixed date there is no big strain on the system constantly checking for triggers.

I wish there was a way to increase MP output through tech but I dont belive there is.

I know that for one Germany did not have the option of taking their own women into the factories on the scale we are talking here because much of the national socialist way was based on the woman staying home raising lots of children.

Ilkhold said:
Beware! This is dangerous ground. Imagine players not into history. What impression will they get? A very detailed economical system with trade unions, women labour etc. but you won't tell them about the crimes the evil. They will consequently have difficulties to believe it ever happened. It all depends on the level of detail.

Apart from that it is highly debatable whether german trade unions had a bigger impact on the economy than some few million slave workers.

I agree with you on this but its a paradox issue not one I created. If we could be allowed to let it in under a Foreign labour label without details it would be ok with me but I doubt they see it that way. It is hard to not step on anyones toes with this and we better take this to the wiki discussion before it gets closed down.


Ilkhold said:
In my opinion the detail in parts of the economy does more harm to the overall experience than it does enhance it.

But the fact that fx UK did use a lot of women in the factories and worked multi shifts did have an impact on the war and allows for us to raise the British production output without resorting to increasing IC, which can be captured. The tech increase cannot.

German Unions were that strong, I doubt you could come up with examples of stronger unions from that time period.


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Copper Nicus said:
Thing to do - We should remove the random events (present in vanilla HoI and in CORE) that cover exactly the same subject.



I would rather go for 3 tech model - German, Balanced and Maximized (Women). Germans would have first tech from the start. If they choose to develop other systems, the event will trigger - if they choose balanced system they will be hit by average, and in case of Women Labor - big dissent.

Most of the world countries will start with Balanced model and will have option to go for Women Labor. Balanced model deactivates German (Union) system, Women - deactivate Balanced one.

How do you like that?

sounds really good :D

women option should probably be disabled for german ai as i doubt it would take a big dissent hit very well, and it doesnt know what comming from it.

Women option should only become available once war starts, how do we get this into the equation? Otherwise it will turn into an exploit and become a first priority tech for any human player, like basic computers.

Also doubt that muslim countries should have the women option.

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Copper Nicus said:
Ghost, check my last post on the previous page.
I guess it sort of solution WITHOUT touching forced labor issue at all.

Do you mean by putting it under the German union umbrealla or?

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Ghost_dk said:
I know that for one Germany did not have the option of taking their own women into the factories on the scale we are talking here because much of the national socialist way was based on the woman staying home raising lots of children.
Such ideals only ever survive until necessity requires otherwise.
When it came to necessity the Nazis did employ women, the difference to the UK was germany's vast amount of forced labour workforce. They didn't need the women in the same rate as the UK.

But the fact that fx UK did use a lot of women in the factories and worked multi shifts did have an impact on the war and allows for us to raise the British production output without resorting to increasing IC, which can be captured. The tech increase cannot.
UK needed lots of women workers, that is why they were there. Every other country would have done the same if necessary. So all effects on MP would just cancel themselves out.

I don't like the multishift idea. It will ultimately result in people saying: "Germany had economical problems during the war, that was because they had those strong trade unions, they got rid of too late and weren't using women in factories because of their stupid ideology.
Maybe they would have won if they changed that."

If just one person get's that impression from the change, than it is not worth doing it.
 

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Ghost_dk said:
Do you mean by putting it under the German union umbrealla or?

Ghost_dk

I suggest leaving forced labor out of scope of the game. German player will have the option to "break the unions" and move to balanced model or try to use model where women labor is used. With all the consequences of those choices (bonus to MP, dissent hit).

Adding forced labor is a can of worms... If Germans got it, why not Russians? Gulags were very important for Soviet economy after all...

Those industrial techs would cost 1 IC (no sense in making them more costly), but would take like a year to develop (time of work system adjustments).

EDIT: Efect on the IC would not be bigger then 5% IC efficiency.
 
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Ilkhold said:
I don't like the multishift idea. It will ultimately result in people saying: "Germany had economical problems during the war, that was because they had those strong trade unions, they got rid of too late and weren't using women in factories because of their stupid ideology.
Maybe they would have won if they changed that."

I agree that women in the UK and laboreres in Germany served in the same kind of positions, but that does not mean it had no impact.

And the German reluctance to multishifs did in a big way impact the german production. Multishifts allowed greater production then prewar on the same number of factories.

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Copper Nicus said:
I suggest leaving forced labor out of scope of the game. German player will have the option to "break the unions" and move to balanced model or try to use model where women labor is used. With all the consequences of those choices (bonus to MP, dissent hit).

Adding forced labor is a can of worms... If Germans got it, why not Russians? Gulags were very important for Soviet economy after all...

Those industrial techs would cost 1 IC (no sense in making them more costly), but would take like a year to develop (time of work system adjustments).

EDIT: Efect on the IC would not be bigger then 5% IC efficiency.


I agree that they should be left out. I misundestood you sorry.

I agree on the tech cost as well. How do we limit it to wartime?

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Copper Nicus said:
By putting it on the 6-7th levels of the industrial tech tree. Most countries woun't be able to reach it until 1939-1940 (they start with 4th level - Mass Production - researched).

Sounds ok :)

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Ghost_dk said:
I agree that women in the UK and laboreres in Germany served in the same kind of positions, but that does not mean it had no impact.

I never said it had no impact, I said that it has the same impact in any country. Cancelling out, was what I said.

And the German reluctance to multishifs did in a big way impact the german production. Multishifts allowed greater production then prewar on the same number of factories.
No, it didn't. The relation to the number of factories is correct, but in relation to the number of workers production isn't increased, and that was the limitting factor, otherwise there would had to be unemployment.
 

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Ilkhold said:
I never said it had no impact, I said that it has the same impact in any country. Cancelling out, was what I said.

If you then add a muslim country into the equation which had neither option it doesnt add up. It had an impact compared to those who didnt use it.


Ilkhold said:
No, it didn't. The relation to the number of factories is correct, but in relation to the number of workers production isn't increased, and that was the limitting factor, otherwise there would had to be unemployment.

but you just agreed yourself that the slave labour used filled the neccessary gaps

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We should make the balanced tech a pre req of the the different mass production sub-techs to give Germany an incentive to move away from the guild system. Dont make this one to hard to achieve timewise though.

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Ghost_dk said:
If you then add a muslim country into the equation which had neither option it doesnt add up. It had an impact compared to those who didnt use it.
Even a muslim country could use women as workforce, and I bet it did happen.
The only difference is between countries that needed women as workers and countries that didn't. But that is nothing you can control in the game in a detailed and correct way.

but you just agreed yourself that the slave labour used filled the neccessary gaps
Of course I agree with myself.
But what are "necessay gaps"? And why do you agree that workforce is the limiting factor and at the same time promote the beneficial effects of a multishift model while ignoring the effects of forced labour?
 

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Ghost_dk said:
We should make the balanced tech a pre req of the the different mass production sub-techs to give Germany an incentive to move away from the guild system. Dont make this one to hard to achieve timewise though.

Ghost_dk

Why? They mass produced weapons without moving away from the system. True that it was happening with use of forced labour... :wacko:

I guess we start to bite our own tails now.
 

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Ghost_dk said:
We should make the balanced tech a pre req of the the different mass production sub-techs to give Germany an incentive to move away from the guild system. Dont make this one to hard to achieve timewise though.

Ghost_dk

Moving away from the guild system? Sounds more like Victoria to me. It does only make sense in a free enterprise system. Guilds and trade unions stand for a planned economy, which is what you get in the war. And as far as I remember the Nazis had a lot of control over the unions from 1933.
 

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Ilkhold said:
Moving away from the guild system? Sounds more like Victoria to me. It does only make sense in a free enterprise system. Guilds and trade unions stand for a planned economy, which is what you get in the war. And as far as I remember the Nazis had a lot of control over the unions from 1933.

They had lots of control when it came to making them count in the political takeover. This is the excact reason why they were afraid to go against them later on. It was a huge part of their power base.

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Ghost_dk said:
They had lots of control when it came to making them count in the political takeover. This is the excact reason why they were afraid to go against them later on. It was a huge part of their power base.

Ghost_dk
That seems to be an overstatement. They had other power bases, like the industry or the SA. Trade unions always had a strong relationship with the SPD which meant that they were a target during the early "Gleichschaltung".
 

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Ilkhold said:
That seems to be an overstatement. They had other power bases, like the industry or the SA. Trade unions always had a strong relationship with the SPD which meant that they were a target during the early "Gleichschaltung".

true but the NSDAP gave the German worker back his work in the following years within the guild system. Not that the other parts were not equally importent. Hitler needed the support of the average German as much as industry and semi-feudal leftovers at the top. Going against the unions would have made his German helper face crack somewhat and he did'nt want to risk it.

Your right that the Guild reference may seem victorian but it was neverless still part of Germany at WW2 time.

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Copper Nicus said:
Why? They mass produced weapons without moving away from the system. True that it was happening with use of forced labour... :wacko:

I guess we start to bite our own tails now.

Well according to Math Guy the system left Germay about 20% behind US in terms of output from the factories when they were under the guild and forced labour system in 39. By 44 this had gone up dramatically because of the US use of real Mass production.

This means that under guild system Germany should get an increase but not quite the one of Mass production.

Maybe limit the pre-req to ship/plane/verhicle and leave small arms out of it

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