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JRaup

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Originally posted by Mithel
Don't forget that if economies get a little out of balance the nations can start doing really absurd cyclic trading on the World Market and melt down an economy that had no reason for a meltdown!

I think it's important to add in trade between Germany and Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Italy. This both helps balance a historic resource production and it gives incentive to keep Germany's allies as allies rather than just conquering them.

- Mithel

I would like to see long term deals like those you mentioned in the game as convoys. Germany sends supplies to Hungary, Hungary sens stell or coal to Germany, or what have you. I think this can solve several issues, but only once we have the basics in place.
 

JRaup

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Germany or Not: I think there is merit in looking at one economy first to see if we can make it work as a prototype. Then what we learn there can be fanned out into the other major economies and modified appropriately for their circumstances.

I agree that looking at a single economy to work from is a good idea. I just don't think that Germany in 1944 is it. I think it better to look at a more stable economy, such as the USA, or Canada to do this. That way we won;t get caught up in things outside of our control, such as Strat bombing, or convoys intercepts. The USSR wouldn't be bad either.

German Rubber Digression: The German rubber situation was pretty fascinating, too. They had about four major synthetic factories that doubled their pre-war requirements. They were always hand to mouth on rubber and were scared to death the allies would bomb them out. What they spent their rubber production on was #1 Aircraft tires, #2 truck tires, #3 everything else. Rubber production collapsed in 1944 as a consequence of the bombing damage to the associated synthetic oil plants that provided the feedstock.

This is another area where we can't really model what needs to be there. First, we can't effect resource values in game, only by inc or the province csv file. Secondly, we can't control how the AI or a human player uses Strat bombers. Third, we can't properly represent facilities such as those for synthetic rubber in game either. So, we can't have the Strat bombers be able to take out those key facilities, and cause the appropriate amount of damage. it's a failure of the engine, and we're stuck with it.

Force 1944 German Crisis or Not: I agree with JRaup on this one. A lot of the German economy was hand to mouth through the war, but my reading leads me to the preponderance of the crisis in 1944 was due to Allied-Soviet action rather than some sort of exhaustion of pre-war stocks.

That has been my opinion based on what I have read. And, as above, we can't really model that as it should be in game.

Strategic Bombing as a tool: My observation is that the HOI engine actually simulates early Allied strategic bombing pretty well. You smash factories and a month later production is going full bore again. There is a playtestable question whether the historical mix of bombers and long range fighters can do enough damage to trigger a meltdown in the German economy. This would involve hitting the coal provinces in order to deny the Germans the feedstock resource to convert into oil. IRL the Allies spent an enormous level of resources that this would work and a lot of HOI players don't do this. That suggests that a Germany without the stress of strategic bombing ought to be a lot stronger than not.

Absolutely. This is why using 1944 Germany isn't a good idea. Of course, Strat bombing needs to be looked at again once we have a working economic model in place.
 
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German Economy

For all the reasons above Germany 1944 is a special case, but perhaps Germany 1940-1943 is not. I attached a lot of data in a spreadsheet over in the wiki that covers oil, rubber, steel, GDP, etc.

FYI, I was stunned to see that they got 15% to 20% of their oil from domestic Germany and Austria (another 15% from Romania and the balance in synthetics). The proportions are approximate, but take a look.
 

JRaup

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I think I found a place where Paradox may have gone wrong, and is casuing us so many problems. Thinking about the reverse engineering, and the way the engine works, I'm guessing that Paradox took 1948 statistics for resources, and used those to place production values in the map. This is only a guess though. It does make some sense as to why there is an apparent over abundance of certain resources, while others are woefully under represented. It would also explain why some nations have economic melt downs early, while others are able to steam roll along with no difficulty.

If this is the case, then we know what the "end product" is supposed to be. What we would need to do, given the premise, is to somehow scale back several resources, redistribute them, and make the inustrial tech tree work to accomplish the end result.

That all siad, I'm still only guessing here. Anyone else have a comment?
 

Steel

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IIRC Vulture quoted Ellis, John. World War II: A Statistical Survey as a primary source, that's 1937 data and was probably accurately mapped for HoI 1.00. Reverse engineering current numbers is a rather dodgy business since changes since then have all been done for balancing reasons (like adding resources all over the map) rather than historical data.
 

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JRaup, I think you might be on to something important.

The initial IC figures for the majors are pretty much taken straight out of Madison's 1938 GDP, and one IC roughly equals 1 billion dollars, divided by 360 days of the HoI year.

The world total IC also adds up to Madison's world total in GDP, which is 4,019.9 billion 1938 US$.

Basically, that is our starting point for IC.

In fact, I'd argue that we should take those figures, and reduce them by another 6% or so, to account for the two years of growth from 1936 to 1938.

On resources, in 1936 we should have enough of all resources for IC production to cover world's needs, plus another small amount as buffer. I'd say adding 10% to world needs should cover it nicely.

Here are the values from province.bak, HoI 1.05c:

2201 provinces
Average infrastructure = 25.36
Total IC = 4420
Total Manpower = 3150
Total Oil = 2592
Total Steel = 8203
Total Coal = 14826
Total Rubber = 2597

As you can see, total IC is a little over Madison's figures, about 10%. This is mostly because many minors have their IC production vastly overstated. Case in point is Yugoslavia. According to Madison, in 1938 it has 22 billion GDP, while in HoI it has 53 IC starting, more then double that.

Coal is overabundant, by 67%. Steel is even more overabundant, by 85%. Rubber is overabundant, by 18%.

My world strategic material production report states that global oil production in 1937 was 272 million tons. Looking at the HoI value, I'd assume that this figure, or a similar one, was used to derive total global oil production value.

It seems fairly obvious to me that the limiting growth factor here is rubber production. However, if we take into account the fact that oil and excess coal can both be converted to rubber, we can easily guesstimate that maximum supportable IC based on initial HoI resource production is about 50% more then the initial IC. This looks fairly well, considering that our rough estimates show that world's GDP in 1947 being about 50% more then in 1936.

In fact, looking at all these figures, it seems Paradox took a very easy road: taking Madison's GDP values straight for majors, divided by 10 and distributed over 360 days. For minors, they took Madison' values where available, and tweaked them mostly upwards for playability. Coal, oil, and steel (iron ore), seem to have roughly been taken from World Strategic Material production report for 1937, with minor changes. Rubber I guess was simply adjusted to these existing values, not seeming to have any relation to any of the other values I can see.

Various unit costs, supply costs and ratios, conversion techs, and fuel usage by units seem to have been mostly worked into these numbers backwards, to come up with roughly the right number of units and historical shortages (more or less). In fact, most of the fiddling with shortages seems to have been done in the area of resource distribution, rather then working with totals, as production is not correctly divided among the historically producing areas.

While this is a valid model, it is by no means ideal. We need to figure out actual world's NEEDS of main resources in 1938. Since IC production ratios for coal, steel, and rubber are fixed, we do not have the luxury of picking and choosing numbers for those 4. In fact, working with total IC, we need to work out total production of resources needed to support that IC.

Regardless of actual ratios of coal, steel, and "rubber" used in production, we are stuck with hardcoded ratio of 2:1:0.5. Basically, most discussion of how valuable coal is compared to steel compared to rubber is pointless, because we already know. Steel is twice as valuable as coal, and half as valuable as rubber. WE CANNOT CHANGE THESE RATIOS.

At this point, lacking other data, I'd assume that at any given point, global resource production matches global needs for that resource, given global GDP produced at that point. In other words, we should use GDP to figure out how much of resources we need for that GDP. Using Madison's 1938 global GDP, this is what I got:

Global GDP (1938): 4,019.9 billion US$
Global IC: 4,020
Coal Total: 8,040
Steel Total: 4,020
Rubber Total: 2,010

Given an uneven distribution of these resources, we'll have shortages in some countries and excess in others. We also need some way to support world GDP growth up to 1947. Assuming this growth will equal 50% over the 11 year period, we come up with these values for the end of game scenario:

Global GDP (1947): 6,029.85 billion US$
Global IC: 6,030
Coal Total: 12,060
Steel Total: 6,030
Rubber Total: 3,015

These are the tools we have at our disposal to create that global IC:

1. Initial overabundance of three key resources. I'd argue that a small excess, of about 10%, is the way to go here.
2. Oil conversion into rubber. Obviously, this is a limited help, beucase oil is needed for units, and because you still need extra coal and steel, in much larger quantities, to match the extra rubber.
3. Changing efficiency for countries, to give them an increase in production without changing their IC.

I think solution #3 is the way to go, with various industrial efficiency technologies. As I understand it, it is possible to increase the total production of IC produced with the same amount of resources, which is EXACTLY what we need in this case.

The small initial excess of key resources should support some growth of IC through normal means (growing it in provinces). It should also be there to allow World Market to function (so most nations would have some excess to trade for what they need). Oil conversion into rubber is not a terribly relevant factor. Majors will have a better use for their oil (units) while minors can only convert excess oil up to their rubber needs, which are minor anyway.

If we do this, we mostly avoid the problem of converting coal to oil and rubber to avoid shortages. Since, globally speaking, there isn't all that much extra to be had, only 10%, even at best conversion ratios, you can only squeeze 10% more IC out of those resources. All we need to do is to tweak conversion ratios to make it unattractive.

Basically, here is the solution I am outlining:

1. Take 1938 GDP figures, adjust down for 2 years of growth (from 1936), give same IC to the world in billions of 1938 dollars.

2. Give world enough coal, steel, and rubber to support that IC, plus 10% extra in each resource.

3. Create a set of production efficiency technologies, giving an average of 50% increase in production, with same resources. Maximum efficiency gain should be about 100% (for U.S., for example).

This leaves oil out, as it is a separate issue. It also leaves conversion factors out, as they are not going to be terribly important. We can set those as we choose. Oil can be handled as follows:

1. Take maximum war global oil consumption for military needs. Use that value to create oil point total.

2. Work with whatever ratio was used to convert military oil usage into points, and work out individual unit consumption figures, based on real usage numbers.

3. Up the global oil production total by some factor, to represent extra oil usable for military needs and/or oil-to-rubber conversion, and trading. My suggested value here is also 10%, to be in line with other resources.

Note that I try and skip the issue of how much of actual oil production went into military vs. civilian needs. I work backwards from maximum level of military wartime consumption, and take that to be the production total, plus another 10%. This organically limits us to maximum historical fuel usages, plus 10%, and another possibly another 10% if all excess coal is converted to oil at 1:1 ratio. So, theoretically, it is possible to fuel a global mechanized war machine about 20% bigger then the biggest historical war machine. I think this number is fairly reasonable.

Of course, the thorny issue is the distribution of resources, which is the actual problem. This being done, we come back to the first step of the resource distruction, which is defining each resource. The second step is defining relative ratios of materials within a resource. The third step is using the production figures to determine resource production, and making sure totals add up to our predetermined world totals.

By necessity, step two is related to the final testing, where we see if things actually work out to produce desired economic results. I have no magic method to offer here, other then to try out different material ratios and see what we get.

Feedback?

Zerli

APPENDIX

Using Madison's world GDP for 1938, and assuming 1 billion US$ equals 1 IC over 1 year, we get:

1,000,000,000 US$ / 360 days = 2,777,777 US$

Therefore 1 IC = 2,777 million US$ (in 1938 dollars)

I'd like to take that figure and set it down as the correct IC-to-real-money ratio.
 

Steel

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I think solution #3 is the way to go, with various industrial efficiency technologies. As I understand it, it is possible to increase the total production of IC produced with the same amount of resources, which is EXACTLY what we need in this case.

No, it's not possible.
 

JRaup

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Originally posted by Steel
IIRC Vulture quoted Ellis, John. World War II: A Statistical Survey as a primary source, that's 1937 data and was probably accurately mapped for HoI 1.00. Reverse engineering current numbers is a rather dodgy business since changes since then have all been done for balancing reasons (like adding resources all over the map) rather than historical data.

Ya know, I'm really starting to regret wanting to do this. Maybe I'll just stick to land wars in Asia. Much simpler. :D

I should have paid more attention to what changes were made since 1.00 to the resources and such. If the 1937 data was the original basis, then I may be able to work from that, and adjust. Of course, this requires that the current understanding of the translations from RW numbers to HoI numbers are correct.

The more I look at this, the more I see the need to have the industrial/chemical tech trees fully integrated into this. The German issue for example shows the need.

Looks like I've got more than a bit of reading to do before I can start working the numbers. I guess I will have something to do at work after all.
 

JRaup

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3. Changing efficiency for countries, to give them an increase in production without changing their IC.

AFAIK, this won't work. If you up the efficiency, you still get increased resource consumption, just no additional IC. Tweaking individual nations conversion ratios, and supply production efficiency is possible, but what you propose isn't.
 

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Yes, changing the industrial efficiency changes the amount of available IC. That IC eats up resources at the sam 2:1:0.5 rate, so if you increase a country's IC by 10% it eats up 10% more resources. There's a way to get the same production for less resources, by decreasing efficiency and all costs by the same amount, but that raises the problem of 0 cost units. (MDow's fault ;):p)
 

Steel

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Originally posted by Gwalcmai
Yes, changing the industrial efficiency changes the amount of available IC. That IC eats up resources at the sam 2:1:0.5 rate, so if you increase a country's IC by 10% it eats up 10% more resources. There's a way to get the same production for less resources, by decreasing efficiency and all costs by the same amount, but that raises the problem of 0 cost units. (MDow's fault ;):p)


You can also go the other way, ie increase starting IC and province resources by a factor of 5 or 10. I had some interesting discussions with Mercy regarding this about ten months ago or so, of course it makes IC upgrades far less relevant but it does open up some interesting possibilities.
 
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Rubber Point

I had one of the those "aha" moments while shaving this morning.

1) German rubber production peaked during the winter of 1943/1944 at 12,000 tons/month = 400 tons/day = 400 rubber points. Under the HOI system that means 800 IC or increasing the stockpile.

2) We know that Germany can't run an 800 IC economy on the historical territory and the massive rubber stockpile predicted by #1 didn't occur.

3) Actual German rubber production priorities were 1) Aircraft tires, 2) truck tires, 3) Battery casings (this was the top Kriegsmarine priority for the U-boats).

4) All of the priorities were CONSUMABLES.

Conclusion: there is a major flaw in the HOI model as a simulation insofar as a significant amount of the rubber consumption is used, like oil, for certain kinds of combat units to conduct operations.

Rubber is not only the limiting factor for IC, but it caps the size of the aviation and motorized portions of the nations armies. Both the US and Germany broke out of the resource limit with technology for synthetic substitutes.
 

Gwalcmai

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Originally posted by Steel
You can also go the other way, ie increase starting IC and province resources by a factor of 5 or 10. I had some interesting discussions with Mercy regarding this about ten months ago or so, of course it makes IC upgrades far less relevant but it does open up some interesting possibilities.

I think a doubling of everything might be workable, but a five or tenfold increase would be overkill. Like you said, it would make ic improvements irrelevant. (how about we go begging that Johan makes the effects of improvements moddable ;)) And other improvements would be far less expensive, because a lot of provinces would go over 10 IC (all, if we used 10x), so the price would be capped at 5 in a lot more provinces.

Of course, it would allow the efficiency tweaking I was talking about.
 

Zerli

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Drat. So we can get the same IC to equal more IC, and spend more resources. But no the other way.

And we can increase and decrease cost of supplies, but that doesn't give us enough of a lever to change IC production +/- 50% on same resources.

Hmm... playing a current v0.62 game with Germany, in 1939, just before the war, I have 526 IC total, and 220 of that goes to supply production. Actually, more like 110, but anyway. We can mod this portion, so about 20% of economic spending with the same resource usage is open to work.

Still, this is not what I'd have wanted. Yet another elegant solution bites the dust for hard code shortcomings... :(

The only other way we can handle this is to give the world a 50% overabundance in three key IC resources - coal, steel, rubber. This is to allow for a 50% possible IC growth in scenario time frame.

This means we need to tweak conversion ratios very carefully. In fact, to make this work, we have to make the conversion ratios so steep as to make them an inferior choice to WM, every time. Currently, in the WM, you can get anything you want if you are willing to trade 3:1 for it, and most of the time you can get away with 2:1 or 1:1 trades. To make conversion less palatable, conversion ratio, even half up the tech tree, should be WORSE then 3:1 for coal-to-rubber.

Trading at 3:1 ratios probably won't break resource shortages for majors, mostly because once they go to war, WM becomes next to useless.

I am thinking about initial ratio of 10:1 for coal-to-rubber, with coal-to-oil being 5:1 and oil-to-rubber being 2:1.

Second ratio, about midway up the tech tree, should be something like 6:1 for coal-to rubber, with coal-to-oil being 4:1 and oil-to-rubber being 1.5:1.

Final ratio, all the way up the tech tree, should be equal to worst-case WM trade. IE, coal-to-rubber, with the best tech, should be 3:1, with coal-to-oil being 3:1 and oil-to-rubber being 1:1.

It is the coal-to-oil ratio which should be the bottleneck. Oil is arguably as valuable as rubber, or more, because oil is used both to fuel units and converts efficiently to rubber. Oil is already distributed in such a way that the best sources are all in out-of-way areas, not easily accessible to Axis powers in the game. This is as it should be. Also, the automatic conversion process works in such a way that converted oil is used for units first and rubber second. This is another bottleneck on the ability to convert coal all the way to rubber.

On a related note, I am currently playing a new Germany game with v0.62 and my Yugoslav event pack. As Germany, even with very careful trading and hoarding, I suffered a shortage starting in January of 1938. I ran out of rubber, ran out of oil to convert to rubber, and ran out of coal to convert to rubber. I am running short of steel, as well. For about six months there I ran at 336 IC, instead of 389. Then I got Austria, and ran at full steam, till about March 1939. At that point I was at 1200 coal, 200 steel, no rubber, and 5000 oil, which was dissapearing at a rate of 200 a day.

Then I inherited Czechoslovakia, and I got a huge resource pile out of them, as well as more coal and steel production. Right now it is late August 1939, I have about 25k coal, 50k steel, 20k rubber, and 30k oil. I am burning through steel at 250 a day, and trading about 1200 coal for 400 rubber at 3:1 ratio. War should start in about a week, and I don't expect to have much more of a stockpile by then.

If I don't capture new sources of stuff, I am looking at rubber running out in 100 days, steel running out in 200 days, and oil running out in about 200 days.

Basically, I have 3-5 months till supplies run out. I am definitely looking at a resource crunch in the long run, particularly as far as rubber and oil are concerned. Italians are not any better of either. I was forced to forego last two 10k shipments of coal to them, because I was short.

Heh. We will see how well I do at war... :)

Zerli
 
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German Rubber Benchmark

Zerli, here are some benchmarks.

Actual German Stockpile upon start of WW2: 19,383 tons
Average daily consumption through the end of 1943: 277 tons a day.
Net impact on rubber stockpile: -6,616 tons

Total exports: 100,000 tons (!!!) over and above consumption.

Exports would be to Italy, Axis allies, and occupied Europe.
 

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I was thinking about resources, and was wondering if we should create a series of convoy events that would create resource convoys between resource rich nations (like the UK) and their new allies (like South America, Greece, Egypt, etc...) when they join an alliance? This might help the new allies survive (for a while at least) when they no longer can get resources from the world market.

This would even work for the axis, as they can at least transfer some coal and possibly steel, to help their allies.
 
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JRaup

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Originally posted by McNaughton
I was thinking about resources, and was wondering if we should create a series of convoy events that would create resource convoys between resource rich nations (like the UK) and their new allies (like South America, Greece, Egypt, etc...) when they join an alliance? This might help the new allies survive (for a while at least) when they no longer can get resources from the world market.

This would even work for the axis, as they can at least transfer some coal and possibly steel, to help their allies.

That's certainly a possibility. But i think that many of these will already be in, as "permanent trades" between the nations. But it certainly should be a possibility for those that weren't in the trading spheres of the major powers.
 

unmerged(12544)

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New IC approach

I just had an idea, how to get realistic IC figures without minors collapsing. 2 alternatives, the third is just to modify the current system:

Radical shift of approach
1)Use exact 1938 IC levels for all countries, calculated back to 1936.
2)lower supply consumption for units and raise reinforcement cost to make it possible for minors to supply their troops.
3)disable IC build up for AI completely by using ic_end_year = 1935 for all countries
4)create timer events 01.01.1936; 01.04.1936; 01.07.1936 and so on for the whole time period. As country MER or NAT(immortal). Those trigger economic trades or adjustments. On Jan, 1 add IC for each country, representing economic growth (a lot of scripting, but high precision). Check which countries lack the resources to survive, give them those resources by event every 3 months. Recommend the human player not to build IC.

Moderate shift of approach
1)as above
2)as above
3)limit IC build up for AI by using max_factor = 0 for small countries. This will lead to building 1 IC in just 1 province and building improvements in one more province. Medium countries should be allowed to build more, representing historic growth. The aim is to get about historic growth and not significantly more.
4)create timer events 01.01.1936; 01.04.1936; 01.07.1936 and so on for the whole time period. As country MER or NAT(immortal). Those trigger economic trades or adjustments. Check which countries lack the resources to survive, give them those resources by event every 3 months.

Slight modification of current approach
3)disable IC build up for the AI (minor countries already overpowered by far) completely by using ic_end_year = 1935 for those countries. The 1936 IC for Hungary was in reality not even there in 1947. So any further growth would be even more ahistoric. E.g. HUN, BUL, ROM, YUG, NOR, CZE, FIN, SWE and many more - all should be disabled.

Those ideas are a combination of the Starfire MOD and my own ideas.

What do others think about that?
 
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JRaup

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Re: New IC approach

Originally posted by Ögedei Khan
I just had an idea, how to get realistic IC figures without minors collapsing.
1)Use exact 1938 IC levels for all countries, calculated back to 1936.
2)lower supply consumption for units and raise reinforcement cost to make it possible for minors to supply their troops.
3)disable IC build up for AI completely by using ic_end_year =1935 for all countries
4)create timer events 01.01.1936; 01.04.1936; 01.07.1936 and so on for the whole time period. As country MER or NAT(immortal). Those trigger economic trades or adjustments. On Jan, 1 add IC for each country, representing economic growth (a lot of scripting, but high precision). Check which countries lack the resources to survive, give them those resources by event every 3 months. Recommend the human player not to build IC.

Those ideas are a combination of the Starfire MOD and my own ideas.

What do others think about that?


It's too scripted, and would require too many events. If we were building this up from nothing, we could hard code that sort of thing. But as we are forced to deal with the limitations of the engine, this isn't really an option. It's a good idea, and would be very workable if the game was on a smaller scale, or time frame. Unfortunately, it's beyond anything that can be done without over burdening the engine with events, and forcing a player into certain paths.
 

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Has anyone compared the IC levels from various Vanilla HoI scenarios? This might give us some idea as to what Paradox was anticipating in terms of IC growth and resource situations in the various years.