• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

JRaup

Crusty Grognard
23 Badges
Apr 27, 2003
3.472
4
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
Semi-Lobster said:
While Africa did produce rubber I am disappointed that Vietname got all the rubber production. During the French protectorate era Vietnam produced very little rubber, infact, in HoI terms, they only produced around 5 rubber. Rubber should be moved from Vietnam to Cambodia since it's inaccurate to show Vietnam as a rubber producing region, what they did have was ore, steel and an actual industrial base. The French preferred the Vietnamese over the Cambodians and Laotians. Vietnam had great infrastructure and real industry, unlike Cambodia and Laos who's only industry was rubber (so Laos and Cambodia having 1 IC is accurate)


OK, going off of memory here (and someone correct me where I err please). IIRC, the industrial base in Vietnam was mainly in the Hanoi/Haiphong area, with moderate build ups around Da Nang and Saigon. So, 2-3 in Hanoi/Haiphong, 1-2 in Da Nang and Saigon. Main resource production was Iron/Coal for Tonkin region, tin for Annam/Central Highlands, and Rice (with some rubber) in Cochin. Cambodia was the main rubber producer, especially along the Mekong river (ease of access to plantations/transport to Saigon). Laos was mainly minor tin and iron mines, though some rubber just north of Cambodia isn't unreasonable. So, as a thought, give the Tonkinese provinces Steel and coal (10-15 of each), the central Annamese province 5-10 Steel, and probably Ranch Gia and Saigon 5 rubber each. Boost the Cambodian rubber provinces with those taken away from Vietnam. Give Laos 5-10 Steel, and 2-5 rubber.
 

Semi-Lobster

Tàishǒu of Rìnán Commandery
47 Badges
Nov 13, 2003
5.539
30
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
JRaup said:
OK, going off of memory here (and someone correct me where I err please). IIRC, the industrial base in Vietnam was mainly in the Hanoi/Haiphong area, with moderate build ups around Da Nang and Saigon. So, 2-3 in Hanoi/Haiphong, 1-2 in Da Nang and Saigon. Main resource production was Iron/Coal for Tonkin region, tin for Annam/Central Highlands, and Rice (with some rubber) in Cochin. Cambodia was the main rubber producer, especially along the Mekong river (ease of access to plantations/transport to Saigon). Laos was mainly minor tin and iron mines, though some rubber just north of Cambodia isn't unreasonable. So, as a thought, give the Tonkinese provinces Steel and coal (10-15 of each), the central Annamese province 5-10 Steel, and probably Ranch Gia and Saigon 5 rubber each. Boost the Cambodian rubber provinces with those taken away from Vietnam. Give Laos 5-10 Steel, and 2-5 rubber.

This is much better! :D Hopefully this rearangement of resources will get into 0.81 as it's a much better then 'everything is in Vietnam while Cambodia and Laos are just sort of there'
 

MateDow

CORE Grand Admiral
3 Badges
Mar 18, 2003
1.755
0
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
Semi-Lobster said:
This is much better! :D Hopefully this rearangement of resources will get into 0.81 as it's a much better then 'everything is in Vietnam while Cambodia and Laos are just sort of there'

You just want that rubber closer to Siam where it is easier for you to get and hold. :D MDow
 

Halibutt

Marshal of Poland
5 Badges
Sep 8, 2001
3.396
0
www.halibutt.pl
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Ok, the Zagłębiaczek's work on coal and steel is basically over. What he came up with can be d/l from THIS LOCATION.

Zagłębiaczek also asked me to translate some of his comments to give you an easier overview on what he did and what he did not.

First of all, the system used was:
WPsteel/365=WPday_steel
WPcoal/365=WPday_coal

where
WPsteel is World Production of steel
WPday_steel is World Daily production of steel

WPday_steel/x=x_prod

where
x is a percentage of a World Production of steel made by the X country
x_prod is the X country daily steel production.

Several things might catch your attention:
  • After serious consideration, we decided not to include the iron ore into the WM. Its main purpose is to avoid overpowering the USA. If we decide to include both steel production and ore production, the most powerful country in the world will be USA (with over 6000 steel units) while the next one will be Germany (with less than 1800). After annexing Poland and Czechoslovakia (the third and fourth Central European suppliers), German production would still not exceed 3300/year. The disproportion is drastic and it was decided that we'd better avoided it.
  • The same went for other valuable metals like bauxites. The reason is the same: if we take copper, zinc and other similar metals into consideration, the USA will get additional 2000-3000 steel/year while the RoTW will get 2000 at most. Perhaps in HoI2 the ores could be abstracted as yet another resource. Now it can't be simulated without creating a huge superpower.
  • Zagłębiaczek decided to turn the steel produced by Sweden into rubber. The main difference between the Swedish steel and the steel found anywhere else on our planet was its' superior quality. In 1940 Germany had enough steel to feed its needs. However, Swedish steel was the only one that could be used for advanced projects like submarines and planes. It wasn't well until after the war when deposits of similar quality ore were found in Brasil, China and Central Asia. The conversion of steel to rubber was made on the 4:1 basis.
  • All the minors were left unharmed and mostly unchanged.
  • China was way overpowered, the resources simulated by the vanilla HoI were not discovered until after the WWII.
  • Since the WM will look slightly different (more coal, less steel) a lot of trade events or trade deals will have to be added. We can do it either by adding the deals to the scenario or by scripting a set of trade events for the majors (similar to the GER-SWE and GER-ROM event chains). Which way do you think would be the best one?
Please test the file and post your comments here. I'll pass them on to Zagłębiaczek.
Cheers
 

Halibutt

Marshal of Poland
5 Badges
Sep 8, 2001
3.396
0
www.halibutt.pl
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Also, if you want us to post the sources here, just let me know.

Crazyhorse, as to your remarks about Paramaribo, I explained the reasons for not including the bauxite above. If we were adding the resources locally rather than globally, we'd soon lost the balance out of sight and we'd have a huge, never-ending WM with everything.

I understand your logic since from the beginning I was thinking the same way: "wait, the province of XXX was one of the biggest producers of YYY resource in the world. It should be given more than province ZZZ" - and so on. However, Zagłębiaczek convinced me that this is not the way to go.

OTOH, we can still script some trade events in which the resource is abstracted and traded for a resource out of the blue (for instance:
AAA-BBB trade agreements would look like this:
BBB produces no steel since it only produced aluminium ore IRL. However, it supplied AAA with this badly-needed resorce historically, so we script a trade event: AAA gets steel while loosing coal (or anything else, for that matter) while BBB gets coal and tech while not losing steel. Get the idea? I tested several of such deals with both the CORE and Zagłębiaczek's mod, and I was surprised how the WM is flexible.
Cheers
 

Crazyhorse

Schout-bij-Nacht
26 Badges
Dec 21, 2002
675
19
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Iron Cross
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Arsenal of Democracy
Halibutt said:
[*]The same went for other valuable metals like bauxites. The reason is the same: if we take copper, zinc and other similar metals into consideration, the USA will get additional 2000-3000 steel/year while the RoTW will get 2000 at most. Perhaps in HoI2 the ores could be abstracted as yet another resource. Now it can't be simulated without creating a huge superpower.Cheers

But this way you do limit the abillity play with smaller nations.

Bauxite is very valuable and The netherlands had this in large quantities in Paramaribo. I'm not sure but i do think this will probally be similair for some other smaller nations?
 

Crazyhorse

Schout-bij-Nacht
26 Badges
Dec 21, 2002
675
19
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Iron Cross
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Arsenal of Democracy
I was also thinking of solving this perhaps with some trades. :)

BTW the link isn't working so i can't d/l it.
 

Halibutt

Marshal of Poland
5 Badges
Sep 8, 2001
3.396
0
www.halibutt.pl
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Ooops, apparently I'll have to post it on my page for you to download it. I will post the link as soon as I upload it.

As to the bauxites, this would limit the playability of smaller countries instead of making them more playable. Just have in mind that we'd have to keep the balance. This would mean that the Netherlands get, let's say, 10 additional units of rubber while the USA get 1000 units. And who wins more?

As to the system used by Zagłębiaczek:
For both the coal and steel he used 100 T/1 HoI unit.

STEEL
After summing all of steel in the world, the yearly production was at approx. 200 000 000 T to be divided between the major producers and an additional 100 000 000 T for the ROtW.
COAL
The same system was used for coal. However, 1 200 000 000 T of coal a year gave us approximately 30 000 HoI Coal units a day. Vanilla HoI had 14 000 and it was still quite much (have you ever seen coal run out on the WM?) so we decided to divide that by two.
Cheers
 

JRaup

Crusty Grognard
23 Badges
Apr 27, 2003
3.472
4
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
Halibutt said:
As to the bauxites, this would limit the playability of smaller countries instead of making them more playable. Just have in mind that we'd have to keep the balance. This would mean that the Netherlands get, let's say, 10 additional units of rubber while the USA get 1000 units. And who wins more?


I think that a balance argument can be made to include resources such as Buaxite for the minors, but not the majors. We can include those smaller, but important resources in calculating the minors production numbers, but do not for example, have to include them in the USA's production numbers.
 

Crazyhorse

Schout-bij-Nacht
26 Badges
Dec 21, 2002
675
19
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Iron Cross
  • Impire
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Arsenal of Democracy
JRaup said:
I think that a balance argument can be made to include resources such as Buaxite for the minors, but not the majors. We can include those smaller, but important resources in calculating the minors production numbers, but do not for example, have to include them in the USA's production numbers.

I think that is a good idea.

It would make sense to enhance the paramaribo provinces At the moment it has nothing No IC/MP or resources. But we do have a event that lets the US guard it because of the large bauxite mines. Why would they guard it as it has no value.

Halibutt, thanks for the new link! :)
 

Gwalcmai

©
8 Badges
Mar 14, 2003
5.341
5
Visit site
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
Some countries already have events about trading those resources for something. Should they get the resources and lose the events, keep the events but have them actually decrease the "precious resources" stockpile, or kept as they are?
 

JRaup

Crusty Grognard
23 Badges
Apr 27, 2003
3.472
4
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
Halibutt said:
All right then, Zagłębiaczek needs a full list of countries that should have their aluminium/bauxite/whatever included. Any other pleas/suggestions?
Cheers

Ugh, off the top of my head? I gotta stop posting after work....

Here's a starting point:

Salisbury (province in Africa, UK controlled): Needs some steel for copper mines
Katanga region of the Belgian Congo: Same as above, but in higher quantities
Suriname: should get some rubber and/or steel for teh Bauxite deposits
Southern Angola: Some steel for copper/tin etc.
Indochina: I'll try to find the post where I gave an out line of how those resources should be changed (Maybe Semi-Lobster remembers where I put that).
Yugoslavia: The aluminum and steel works should be present in some form, other than the events
I'll look at China again today, and makes some notes
 

Semi-Lobster

Tàishǒu of Rìnán Commandery
47 Badges
Nov 13, 2003
5.539
30
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
OK, going off of memory here (and someone correct me where I err please). IIRC, the industrial base in Vietnam was mainly in the Hanoi/Haiphong area, with moderate build ups around Da Nang and Saigon. So, 2-3 in Hanoi/Haiphong, 1-2 in Da Nang and Saigon. Main resource production was Iron/Coal for Tonkin region, tin for Annam/Central Highlands, and Rice (with some rubber) in Cochin. Cambodia was the main rubber producer, especially along the Mekong river (ease of access to plantations/transport to Saigon). Laos was mainly minor tin and iron mines, though some rubber just north of Cambodia isn't unreasonable. So, as a thought, give the Tonkinese provinces Steel and coal (10-15 of each), the central Annamese province 5-10 Steel, and probably Ranch Gia and Saigon 5 rubber each. Boost the Cambodian rubber provinces with those taken away from Vietnam. Give Laos 5-10 Steel, and 2-5 rubber.

You posted it on this thread, it's even on te same page as the one we're on right now. In addition Pakse and Vietiane should have 1 IC and and Saigon should have 3 IC.
 
Feb 24, 2003
522
0
Visit site
Specialty Resources

USA:
Phoenix: Large quantities Copper and some precious metals
Miami: Large quantitites Phosphates (best match is rubber?)

Canada:
Montreal (right province?): large quantities Bauxite

Chile:
Northern province near Peruvian border: large quantities phosphates

Spain:
Spanish Sahara: Large quantities of phosphates
Burgos: Tungsten

Portugal:
Oporto: Small quantities of tungsten

Mexico:
Hermosillo: large quantities of copper (similar to Phoenix)

Hungary:
Debrechen: My memory fails me, but I think this was nickel - some sort of allow metal for steel.

Austria:
Graz should get a little more oil.

Malaya:
Kuala Lumpur: Should get tin (steel?)

Jamaica: It has some bauxite, but I don't know when they started mining it.

USSR:
Siberia is a loaded with specialty metals. I have some stuff at home I'll need to refer to.
 
Feb 24, 2003
522
0
Visit site
I'll have something tomorrow. Unfortunately, they are largely swags in the absence of really strong historical data since my references use qualitative descriptions instead of providing tabular data. I've play tested the figures in several games of V0.63 and haven't "broken" the game. Some observations:

- The data tends to favor the USA and USSR directly by insulating them partially from the rubber market.
- It helps the Germans a little by putting some extra materials in reach in Europe.
- It make Spain much more valuable.