Procer

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Province.csv modifications anyone?

Since C.O.R.E. looks to be aimed towards historicity, i think that many changes can be done to the province.csv file to make it more accurate with the real physical and economical maps of HoI's time scope.

I'm taking the idea of adjusting the province.csv from Truchses who did a mod about it some time ago (that he called Geo Mod) although many more brains and hands on this should bring better results for everyone as everything is up to discussion.

In what's on my knowledge of Argentina in 1936 makes me realize that changes have to be done. The fact that some african provinces have more infrastructure than Cordoba in Argentina is too much for me to understand. Some infrastructure values are set too low for certain regions where it shouldn't be that low and viceversa. The same goes for industries and resources. Victory points can also be added in a country by removing the same amount from another porvince in that same country.

For example, in my custom settings in HoI, i have given some points to Cordoba that since the 30's was becoming the military/industrial center of Argentina, plus the province was the 2nd in population, had a decent amount of infrastructure and industries (surely more than in some african porvinces!), and is also the geographical center of the country. The results were that now if i want to puppet Argentina i have to take also Cordoba and not only Buenos Aires, which makes me to ship some more troops top finish the job = enhanced historicty and gameplay at the same time.

The best part of modding this file would be to better represent the real geography. Another example with argentina: Misiones (in HoI) should be a marsh, the patagonic provinces should be deserts (arid steppes) and Cordoba should be set as hills, since a vast area of the province (including in the area in the map used in HoI) are in fact plains and hills, with the mountaineous part somewhat to the north and west. Mendoza should have better infrastructure. In fact, Mendoza and Junin de Los Andes were the location of the argentine Mountain regiments (bergjaeggers = called "Cazadores de Montaña / de Monte" in Argentina) which formed the mountain brigades. Mendoza and the surrounding region had enough infrastructure to support many divisions (e.g. that was the starting point of the campaign accross the Andes that the whole San Martin's Andes Army used to liberate Chile from the spanish in the early XIX century! A whole Army).

Truchses had written a lot of many other reasons to change the geography in other parts of the world. In fact, that review is way too long to post it here. Maybe i could post them as articles (with his permission) at Roadtowar.com to provide some starting point and ideas for debate about the possible adjustements to the file.

The climate is also a whole another league. Some meteo fans should do some research to see if it's necessary to change the climate in some provinces.

In my humble opinion, the province.csv file should be the starting point for any organized mod because is where you shape the world where the events, units, ai's, models, leaders, etc... will perform.

I'll give another example of the weird geography in HoI (imho): Bolivia and Peru were the region of the incan empire... a huge empire that relied on its infrastructure to extend its dominance across distant regions up to Equador and down to the Maule river in Chile where the Araucan tribes resisted them. How come is that difficult for the US Army to conquest the fascist Bolivia in the XX century with motorized divisions! Because of low infrastructure? Hard to believe since there were many decent road for wheeled vehicles to operate, even the old incan roads! Of course going through Antofagasta (which by the way is the driest region in the world... it NEVER rains and it's a dusty desert with the Andes rising near the border with Bolivia and Argentina, afaik)... as i was saying, even going through Chile using Antofagasta as the rally point is quite a hard job but not as hard as going through the northern provinces of Argentina that had some infrastructure for Inf and Mot. Inf. Antofagasta with 50 infrastructure is too much. As a difference between Argentina and Chile, the most populated areas in Chile are to the Center and South! (instead of center and north)

Everything is up to discussion, and that's why i personally think CORE could take care of it. Otherwise i can always mod the file for my taste and fun. My main problem is that i am not really an expert in climate, economy and terrain from 1936 and 2003 ... and things get worst with regions i don't really know a damn thing. That's why maybe some debate and teamwork can bring good results.

So what do you think?
 

Steel

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Terrain, infra, IC etc are all open for discussion. I'd recommend carrying the discussion in the regional threads as you will get the local experts there. As far as possible we will not actually revise province.csv though but rather use a file called provinces.inc. Changes are made in this format:

province = { id = 972 infra = 0.60 maxinfra = 0.60 coal = 40 steel = 10 manpower = 17 ic = 8 maxic = 8 terrain = "hills"} # Madrid


The exceptions (ie stuff that we must put in province.csv) are basically ports and beaches.
 

Procer

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Okey. I will take it to the regional threads, at least to the South American one where i think i can help with this. Truchses may take the whole thing on the regional threads anyway.

It will look kinda uncoordinated anyway. I think that anyway there should be a sticky with the provinces.inc updatesper region so far. It's just and idea.
 

Generalisimo

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Originally posted by Steel
Terrain, infra, IC etc are all open for discussion. I'd recommend carrying the discussion in the regional threads as you will get the local experts there. As far as possible we will not actually revise province.csv though but rather use a file called provinces.inc. Changes are made in this format:

province = { id = 972 infra = 0.60 maxinfra = 0.60 coal = 40 steel = 10 manpower = 17 ic = 8 maxic = 8 terrain = "hills"} # Madrid


The exceptions (ie stuff that we must put in province.csv) are basically ports and beaches.
maybe it will be better to create a special thread for all the changes regarding resources, IC, MP, etc...
if we distribute it through the regional threads, it will be really messy to follow a discussion...
just my thought... :D
 

Generalisimo

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Re: Province.csv modifications anyone?

Originally posted by Procer
Since C.O.R.E. looks to be aimed towards historicity, i think that many changes can be done to the province.csv file to make it more accurate with the real physical and economical maps of HoI's time scope.

I'm taking the idea of adjusting the province.csv from Truchses who did a mod about it some time ago (that he called Geo Mod) although many more brains and hands on this should bring better results for everyone as everything is up to discussion.

In what's on my knowledge of Argentina in 1936 makes me realize that changes have to be done. The fact that some african provinces have more infrastructure than Cordoba in Argentina is too much for me to understand. Some infrastructure values are set too low for certain regions where it shouldn't be that low and viceversa. The same goes for industries and resources. Victory points can also be added in a country by removing the same amount from another porvince in that same country.

For example, in my custom settings in HoI, i have given some points to Cordoba that since the 30's was becoming the military/industrial center of Argentina, plus the province was the 2nd in population, had a decent amount of infrastructure and industries (surely more than in some african porvinces!), and is also the geographical center of the country. The results were that now if i want to puppet Argentina i have to take also Cordoba and not only Buenos Aires, which makes me to ship some more troops top finish the job = enhanced historicty and gameplay at the same time.

The best part of modding this file would be to better represent the real geography. Another example with argentina: Misiones (in HoI) should be a marsh, the patagonic provinces should be deserts (arid steppes) and Cordoba should be set as hills, since a vast area of the province (including in the area in the map used in HoI) are in fact plains and hills, with the mountaineous part somewhat to the north and west. Mendoza should have better infrastructure. In fact, Mendoza and Junin de Los Andes were the location of the argentine Mountain regiments (bergjaeggers = called "Cazadores de Montaña / de Monte" in Argentina) which formed the mountain brigades. Mendoza and the surrounding region had enough infrastructure to support many divisions (e.g. that was the starting point of the campaign accross the Andes that the whole San Martin's Andes Army used to liberate Chile from the spanish in the early XIX century! A whole Army).

Truchses had written a lot of many other reasons to change the geography in other parts of the world. In fact, that review is way too long to post it here. Maybe i could post them as articles (with his permission) at Roadtowar.com to provide some starting point and ideas for debate about the possible adjustements to the file.

The climate is also a whole another league. Some meteo fans should do some research to see if it's necessary to change the climate in some provinces.

In my humble opinion, the province.csv file should be the starting point for any organized mod because is where you shape the world where the events, units, ai's, models, leaders, etc... will perform.

I'll give another example of the weird geography in HoI (imho): Bolivia and Peru were the region of the incan empire... a huge empire that relied on its infrastructure to extend its dominance across distant regions up to Equador and down to the Maule river in Chile where the Araucan tribes resisted them. How come is that difficult for the US Army to conquest the fascist Bolivia in the XX century with motorized divisions! Because of low infrastructure? Hard to believe since there were many decent road for wheeled vehicles to operate, even the old incan roads! Of course going through Antofagasta (which by the way is the driest region in the world... it NEVER rains and it's a dusty desert with the Andes rising near the border with Bolivia and Argentina, afaik)... as i was saying, even going through Chile using Antofagasta as the rally point is quite a hard job but not as hard as going through the northern provinces of Argentina that had some infrastructure for Inf and Mot. Inf. Antofagasta with 50 infrastructure is too much. As a difference between Argentina and Chile, the most populated areas in Chile are to the Center and South! (instead of center and north)

Everything is up to discussion, and that's why i personally think CORE could take care of it. Otherwise i can always mod the file for my taste and fun. My main problem is that i am not really an expert in climate, economy and terrain from 1936 and 2003 ... and things get worst with regions i don't really know a damn thing. That's why maybe some debate and teamwork can bring good results.

So what do you think?
well, i agree with almost all that you have said.
i have tried to mod all this, but finding good sources, trying to represent all that in the "HoI world", test, balance, etc... consumes too much time for me... :(
I have complained to Paradox a lot of times about how useless they had made Cordoba in version 1.0, then again and again... :D
 

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Originally posted by Generalisimo
maybe it will be better to create a special thread for all the changes regarding resources, IC, MP, etc...
if we distribute it through the regional threads, it will be really messy to follow a discussion...
just my thought... :D

Well, I don't think it will be any harder to follow the province changes discussions than it is to follow the events discussion and we seem to manage that ;) Bringing it all together just means that we will be talking about infrastructure in France in the same thread as we talk about IC in Cordoba, which forces somebody with a region specialty to check updates for other regions... but if you think it's better then go for it and create a new sticky thread :)
 

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Originally posted by Steel
Well, I don't think it will be any harder to follow the province changes discussions than it is to follow the events discussion and we seem to manage that ;) Bringing it all together just means that we will be talking about infrastructure in France in the same thread as we talk about IC in Cordoba, which forces somebody with a region specialty to check updates for other regions... but if you think it's better then go for it and create a new sticky thread :)
yes, i have thought about that too... both things has bad aspects... :(
 

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Hey look at it from the bright side - at least all the changes will be in 1 file (provinces.inc) and it's a much easier to read format than province.csv :D
 

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The province.inc is an excellent idea as it will not get overwritten by a new patch.

When I started playing HOI I just noticed that the terrain looked rather out of order. In first place I noticed mountain terrain in Czechia, Bavaria, Swabia and Spain, regions where never mountains have been discovered, or there might be different imaginations about what mountains are.

I started changing this and couldn't stop until I modified the whole world map. But I based all on my world atlas. Of course most of it is guesswork. Luckily Procer knows better about the terrain in South America and has already added his suggestions.

I also wrote an article pointing out what could be some guidelines for decision about a correct terrain. IMO it's not enough to just say, there are mountains, so let it be mountain terrain. The truth is that the provinces are completely inappropriate, and if possible I would prefer to dumb the province concept. That could be accepted in EU2 timeframe, but campaigns of WW2 timeframe can not be simulated with provinces. All provinces contain different types of terrain.

At least some guidelines could be considered. If a unit occupies a province, in which terrain exactly within the province would this unit move? In which would it fight? What terrain would it occupy? There might be mountains, but the cities will probably be down in a field area, near a river. Will the mountains be a problem for movement? Will they be defended? Or could they be ignored at all?

Procer said Cordoba is in the plain, near the city are hills, at the border of the province are mountains. If an enemy unit moves in it will be interested in the Cordoba. So it can move fast on plain terrain into the city. But the near hills are a problem. Troops might hide there and remain a thread for the enemy troops in the city, and will have to be taken out. That means a unit will move in on plain terrain but have to fight in hills. The mountains are far away, and if there are enemy troops they have to come down for a fight or they might sit there until Ragnarök. So that means plain and hills are more important in that province than mountains. Considering life, people, economy, infrastructure, that all can be in the plain, and the hills might be almost unimportant in this cases. But considering the military aspect, if a battle in the hills is inevitable I would give consider the hills most important and give the province hill terrain.

I might have something of what Procer said gotten wrong, and I might therefore have written some nonsense. But even if, than it is not important. I don't need to know it exactly. I just wanted to give an example. Procer and other people of this region should decide this.

I suggest to point the participants of the different threads to this modifications. They should check out my mod as an example and discuss in their appropriate thread what is correct and what needs to be changed and then they post their results in a common thread, maybe in this one. So you will have the lates finished results in the province.inc.
 

Procer

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Yeah, the province.inc rules!

I know i can suggest about south american geography and economics and that many other people like Generalisimo can also provide good ideas for that region. The Geo Mod is a starting point to take a look at suggestions already made by Truchses about the terrain types.

But i think that it will be required that one person per region take the lead and coordinates the modifications for the file in that region while taking a close look on the advances in this matter in other regions for the sake of gameplay balance. Once there's enough to include in a future beta of CORE, then we start testing and fine tuning per region and in a general overview of balance.

I promise that this weekend i'll have an initial suggestion for South America given the values used in other regions by CORE 0.51. I will take into account the parameters that Truchses proposed to choose terrains, but also i'll look for some realism in IC, industries, resources, etc...

As far as i understood, the way to handle the selection of a terrain type in a porvince should be:

- The real world atlas in 1936 and the proportions of varied real terrain types in the HoI province being modded (e.g. if in the real world such province is 90% jungle and 10% desert, then it should be a jungle in HoI, of course)
- The military relevance of those terrain types in the province being modded (e.g if there's 60% jungle and 40% plains in the porvince of the real world, then maybe in HoI the province could be set as plains due to the military and economic importance of the plains and since decisive battles would be fought there and not in the jungle <-- this is open to debate anyway).

Some balance has to be used because those two ideas are somewhat opposed.

If anyone has another model for the seletcion of the terrain type then speak!

Another criteria i would like to suggest (although is pure intuition) is that if someone wants to give some VP to a province in a country then it should taje thme from another province in the same country, unless we are trying to do some rebalancing between countries VP importance.

What do you think? Any other ideas?
 

Generalisimo

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Originally posted by Procer
Another criteria i would like to suggest (although is pure intuition) is that if someone wants to give some VP to a province in a country then it should take them (;)) from another province in the same country, unless we are trying to do some rebalancing between countries VP importance.
that's not necesary...
Cordoba for example should have a VP. ;)
Also Brazil needs a lot more of VP, now it is too easy to annex them... i think they need VP in almost all the coast (well, the important ones :D )
 

Procer

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I'm about to start working on this. The weekend i will have the whole days to mess with it. :)
 

Vulture

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Originally posted by Generalisimo
that's not necesary...
Cordoba for example should have a VP. ;)
Also Brazil needs a lot more of VP, now it is too easy to annex them... i think they need VP in almost all the coast (well, the important ones :D )

I agree Generalissimo ;)
 

Mithel

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As Procer said, "In my humble opinion, the province.csv file should be the starting point for any organized mod" - I completely agree!

This is why I wrote my program to modify the Province.csv file (I haven't released my program for general consumption yet and just made some modifications so it functions partially on the CORE mod).

In fact last weekend I spent three days straight editing the Province.csv file to reflect months of study of the economic situation of WWII.

There is a huge issue here, it appears CORE has gone the route of making a province.inc file (great idea). However, as it's been noted, when a province is captured it reverts to the values in the Province.csv file. On the other hand editing the Province.csv file is non-trivial (well it's a heck of a lot easier with my program) and I can greatly understand your desire to do these changes in the province.inc file. One of the major reasons I've been hesitant to get into modding "big time" is the effort required to adapt previous mods to any new release by Paradox.

I'd like to reach out to the CORE community (well, participate a bit more with you guys) and discuss how to make our changes compatible. Some of you might want to review my Provinces.csv file to see if the same changes should be done to CORE. However that's a staggering amount of work as I edited dang near the entire world province by province.

Since my mod is 90% economic I'm very concerned/interested in the impact with CORE's economic events.

Any further thoughts? (feel free to e-mail me)

- Mithel
 

Kevin Mc Carthy

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This was posted on the Map Bugs thread but has not yet been incorporated.


USA East Coast Geography
1.05b NA

Some highly suggested minor tweaks:

* Province of Miami should be infra = 59, not 79. Florida's road and rail net was not developed as much, and as far south on BOTH coasts, as HOI assumes in the 30s.

* The province of Charlestown [West Virginia] should be infra = 50, not 79. Again, West Virginia's road and rail net was not that developed.
 

MateDow

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West Coast Manpower

Maybe things were different during this time period...

but doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that San Francisco has 0 manpower while Nevada (Las Vegas) has (IRC) 7? Probably some of the manpower could be taken from Portland and some of the other Pacific coast provences. MDow
 

Kevin Mc Carthy

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Re: West Coast Manpower

Originally posted by MateDow
Maybe things were different during this time period...

but doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that San Francisco has 0 manpower while Nevada (Las Vegas) has (IRC) 7? Probably some of the manpower could be taken from Portland and some of the other Pacific coast provences. MDow

LOL
 

Kevin Mc Carthy

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Re: West Coast Manpower

Originally posted by MateDow
Maybe things were different during this time period...

but doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that San Francisco has 0 manpower while Nevada (Las Vegas) has (IRC) 7? Probably some of the manpower could be taken from Portland and some of the other Pacific coast provences. MDow

The city of San Francisco was the 12th largest city in the US in 1940 http://physics.bu.edu/~redner/projects/population/cities/sf.html and Los Angeles was 5th. This does not count pop outside of the city limits. San Francisco should be 8 or 10 MP. This should be added as it appears to be a typo.

Also, San Bernadino has 0 pop also. It should likely be 2 or 3.