C.O.R.E. Multiplayer: Suggestions, ideas, balance...

[unmerged(14683)]

This thread is designed to focus on C.O.R.E. Multiplayer issues.

As we all know, multiplayer game seriously differs from the SP - some elements of the mod which are great add-on in single player mode, in multiplayer might be problematic. Balance of the game in MP is also radically different...

I would like to see here some input from the MP veterans - what do you find wrong in MP CORE in terms of balance/events? What should be added/removed? How do you find playing different countries? How the CORE MP changes balance of the game compared to the vanilla HoI?

This dedicated thread should help us in 'filtering' MP suggestions from standard Q/A noise in the 'general discussion/local' threads.

 

[RoMMeL DvAz]

One situation I´ve noticed in most MP is that a good Axis team can blitz France and later make Sea Lion with the three axis fleets without problem, and the American WE after SeeLion doesn´t affect. I think it will be interesting to make an event that acelerate american WE if Sea Lion begins.

 

[Pkunzipper]

Right, there was something similar also on "Third Reich" boardgame, if Germany control any hex in England each turn WE increased 2/3 point more.
We can make an events chain that each month (for 3/4 months, so 3/4 events...) it raises USA WE by 10/15 if GER troops are in UK...

BTW I'm interested, how easy is for a human Italy palyer capture Gibriltar or Suez with a human UK player?
Has Japan player no disadvantages moving away his fleet (i.e. UK player can't interdict japanese convoys?)

 

[mike8472]

One issue that we have incountered on many MP games in CORE. Is the manpower the USSR gets compared to Germany is out of wack due to make it harder for an AI Germany in SP.

Germanies Population was 80 million in WWII, the USSR was around 160 Million, the US 140 million. Now if USSR starts with 4500 manpower and recieves monthy increases of say 35 for example. This gives the USSR 6810 manpower till June 1941. Germany recieves 1000 to start, 300 on mobilization event, 150 when austria is annexed and some other small amounts through events. So thats 1450, plus an average of 18.5 manpower for the first 2 years, then up to 20.5 for one year, then around 25 for the next two up till June 1941. this equals around 2890 manpower up till June 1941.

With this level of manpower no war on the eastern front would last until 1945. Im in a game at the moment in 0.64 MP and its Mid 1942 and im nearly out of manpower, and i have used it very wisely but simple fighting wears it down quickly. I think some more manpower events like mobilization in the pre war years is more realistic. Hitler embarked on a massive rearment and expansion of the army. By the time Barborossa came aorund Hitler could field 3 million troops on the east front, and 1.5 million in the west and in the conquered lands.

I think two years of events with 250 manpower in each would be fine, to give an exta 500 manpower. This still leaves the soviets with over 2 to 1 advantage which is historic. This dosnt take into account that the USSR can put a mass combat minister in giving them well over 70 MP per month. Germany should recive a mass combat minister in 1942 or 1943 at the latest. It was in mid to late 1942 Germany went to full mobilization for total war, after they relaised they could not win quickly, and espicaly after stalingrad and the US entry to the war.

Manpower should not really be a problem for Germany until 1943, it is near to impossible to hold off good MP USA, UK and USSR even with Jaan and italy. We would all like the games to last till 1945 or longer but this wont happen as Germany is central to a good MP game, you rarely get to 1943.

Anyway let me know what you think. We have tested this in dozens of CORE games in 0.64 and it is constanlty the same problem.

 

[Pkunzipper]

First of all thanks for your comments!

I often put an eye on your Australian Group Multiplayer thread, that is a very interesting read and source of feedback! (I'd like very much if you can start you next game using 0.7, overwriting vanilla CORE files, in order to get a little feedback before 0.71)

About Manpower:
I thikn that a little tweak can be made (but Germany on SP has already good chances to win in Russia). I think it is historical: if Germany can't take Mosca or capturing a lot of valuable regions (resources or MP) by the end of 1942 it has no chance to win the war.
Maybe if we make importants regions (Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moska, Minsk, Sevastopol and maybe others), the greatest source of MP for SOV, if they lose them it means a major monthly MP loss...

 

[unmerged(24138)]

I completly agree that Germany lacks manpower in late stages of the war. Eg, after they have been in war with the majors for about 2 years, ruins the game experience a bit.

Also i see the tech-rushing as a problem, especially the USA that easily tops most trees before even going to war, i would be pleased to see some doctrines and techs need some combat experience before they can be researched. Of course country's can share about their experiences to some extent, but not to 100%.

And about IC i personally would like to see a decrease for almost all nations, they got too much to spend on research.

Well, as you see, i dislike to see people bringin in jetfighters and advanced Tanks early in the game, not to mention nukes if the house rules dont prohibit those.

 

[Steel]

Hi Mike, thanks for taking the time to feedback (and I know you've already posted the same arguments in the MP forum as well as our Bug forum!) Just out of curiosity, do you ever research this tech? It enables new divisions with lower MP cost.

application = { # 44 Pattern Divisions
id = 11506
name = "Divisional Reorganization (GER only)"
desc = "As the war ground on and manpower became more scarce, Staff officers devised a new divisional structure that would retain the firepower of the older division, while reducing the number of personnel by 25 percent by increasing the number of automatic weapons and other support weapons in the division. Historically, these were the German 1944 Divisions."

required = { 11513 }
chance = 90
cost = 20
time = 140
neg_offset = 35
pos_offset = 70

effects = {
command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 1 }
command = { type = new_model which = mechanized value = 2 }
command = { type = new_model which = motorized value = 2 }
command = { type = new_model which = cavalry value = 2 }
}
}

Also, the New Order events should provide an influx of extra units (depending on event choices). Do you find that you don't benefit from this because the events never occur, because they are not enough or something else? An option would be to add a B choice in those events to offer manpower rather than free units.


The MP release of v0.7 should be this weekend, I'll include any tweaks that we get a consensus on in this thread

 

[mike8472]

We will be starting a game in CORE MP 0.7 a soon as our altest game is over in 0.64 which is proving to be our best game yet. Can we play CORE 0.70 in multiplayer as it stands at the moment or do we need to copy some files into another directory. Thanks

 

[Pkunzipper]

I think 0.7 tech speed is very balanced (no more jet in 1942 for USA). In my test game I usually had Imp.fighter '41/'42 and Adv.ones not before the end of '43/'44, the same for tank prototype.

 

[Pkunzipper]

We will be starting a game in CORE MP 0.7 a soon as our altest game is over in 0.64 which is proving to be our best game yet. Can we play CORE 0.70 in multiplayer as it stands at the moment or do we need to copy some files into another directory. Thanks

Well every CORE release can be played in MP copying the whole mod-core directory into HOI standard directory replacing original files. However, at this point, I suggest to wait this weekend when will be released the next MP version (that will contains some fixes for bugs already reported).

 

[Steel]

We will be starting a game in CORE MP 0.7 a soon as our altest game is over in 0.64 which is proving to be our best game yet. Can we play CORE 0.70 in multiplayer as it stands at the moment or do we need to copy some files into another directory. Thanks

It will crash if you use mod-dir, so you would need to copy files from \mod-CORE into the default directories. IIRC you should discard music.ini but all the rest are the same. I'll check my notes tonight.

 

[unmerged(5892)]

I'll give this a go as soon as we (mike, myself, munster and jh) finish our current game.

I've listed some issues that I feel need reworking along with German manpower - hopefully this will be useful.

The first issue that springs to mind is the auto-DOW by France on Nationalist Spain following the Catalunyan and Basque seperatist events. Annoying to have general war break out in a high proportion of games because of this. This one hasn't affected too many of our Australian group games, but I've noticed it regularly in SP, and seperate MP games.

I'm also peturbed by the number of 0 IC or Manpower units - such as subs, and transports, that can be produced with certain techs. In a previous game the German player was able to churn out 0 Manpower subs apparently, whilst I - playing as the UK - could churn out equal number of 0 IC transports. Essentially this meant that despite crippling convoy losses, I could have kept the sea's open at all times at no IC cost. Manpower is an even bigger worry though, as I don't like the idea of unlimited numbers of any kind of unit.

My final observation of something that could be worked on is the Nazi occupation Policy for the Soviet Union. The events that fire on this when any sensible German player chooses the least 'aggressive' option for the Soviet Union are immediate and harmful. 20 dissent is alot to take from 1 event, especially when on almost each and every re-load the same events fire. I played SU in one game and had 2 of the 20 dissent events, as well as around 10-5 events increasing dissent by 3. I wonder if perhaps there could be other ways to simulate proposed anti-communist sentinent that wasn't quite so damaging?

Overall, love all the work you guys from the CORE team have done though. And I know everyone in our MP group is looking forward to trying out the latest CORE version as soon as our current game with it's fantastic eastern front battles is won by the heroic red army

 

[mike8472]

The Red army will be crushed under the weight of Panther II's. All good points joel. Maybe some events could trigger desertions from the red army, and they lose some manpower plus some units, instead of dissent all the time. This was a big problem in late 41 and 42 for the USSR.

Yes steel i have been using the better units for Germany, they do help espically the mech. But by the time you get them your army is mostly built and you do not have enough manpower to spare to start building more units past late 41, not with a constant eastern front.

 

[Ghost_dk]

The Red army will be crushed under the weight of Panther II's. All good points joel. Maybe some events could trigger desertions from the red army, and they lose some manpower plus some units, instead of dissent all the time. This was a big problem in late 41 and 42 for the USSR.

Yes steel i have been using the better units for Germany, they do help espically the mech. But by the time you get them your army is mostly built and you do not have enough manpower to spare to start building more units past late 41, not with a constant eastern front.

you dont have to build more units only upgrade the ones you have, If this means you'll have to stop your advances in the east to consolidate, more power to it

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(12303)]

well in 0.7 it seem to me that the russians are to far ahead of the germans in tanks and industry. and since tanks are most important + quality control methods too i think the advantage it too big for a good russian player. I would suggest adding the tank tech and industry tech in the pool for the german player but reducing the amount of time it takes to research it from 360 (vh) to maybe 200 days. otherwise you have the russians bulding better tanks the the germans sooner...

my 2 cents.

F

 

[unmerged(19411)]

As a matter of fact, Hitler DOWNSIZED the German army after the conquest of France, and prohibited working on army techs that would take more than 1-2 years to complete.

So Germany's current MP in CORE is very realistic.

German soldiers were not as heavily enlisted as Russian soldiers were. There was 25% of the German workforce in agriculture alone, and factories would have required millions more people. Russia didn't mobilise all of it's troops, most came from Siberia, fully mobilised. Other troops were just militia thrown into battle with barely a rifle in hand, as was the case with most of the Battle of Stalingrad.

I'll add more later.

 

[boromir]

well in 0.7 it seem to me that the russians are to far ahead of the germans in tanks and industry. and since tanks are most important + quality control methods too i think the advantage it too big for a good russian player. I would suggest adding the tank tech and industry tech in the pool for the german player but reducing the amount of time it takes to research it from 360 (vh) to maybe 200 days. otherwise you have the russians bulding better tanks the the germans sooner...

my 2 cents.

F

I'm a bit worried about this too. But don't they start the same with industry techs? If so, the Russian advance will be delayed by the quality control methods and artillery techs ... Still, they will have better tanks ... I guess we really have to play a game through to see what effect this has.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

I'm a bit worried about this too. But don't they start the same with industry techs? If so, the Russian advance will be delayed by the quality control methods and artillery techs ... Still, they will have better tanks ... I guess we really have to play a game through to see what effect this has.

Starting industry techs are the same, Germans get one free in 1938 (Vehicle Mass Production) as well.

Comparing starting postions, Germans really save a lot IC thanks to the free doctrines...

I know it's not the same as new tank model, but still it's serious difference in IC/time that Soviets have to spend to match this.

 

[unmerged(12303)]

the issue is that what good is a doctrine if you dont have a tank.. I can only build a improved 65 whilst he will have in 1940 a 85 or 75... or I could wait and build only basic tanks ... but I dont want to risk that as tanks are the most improtant thing in the game..

F

 

[Kindjal]

And about IC i personally would like to see a decrease for almost all nations, they got too much to spend on research.

Well, as you see, i dislike to see people bringin in jetfighters and advanced Tanks early in the game, not to mention nukes if the house rules dont prohibit those.

Play on a higher difficulty and the problem solves itself.