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Ghost_dk

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Untermensch said:
Thank you for responding. Sometimes posting suggestions is like throwing money down a hole.

Yep your right. sometimes you get your wish fullfilled, sometimes you don't.
At other times you get a big fat frog jumping out and you ask yourself: Hmm, If i kiss that thing will it turn into something great or will I just waste my time and look really really silly while doing so :p

Ghost_dk
 

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Untermensch said:
(...)One example: Before the Purges the Soviet had an armored force structure much like the Germans(...)


As I said, I basically agree with effect on RKKA (temporary drop of effectiveness in 1937-1939 time), but the quote above needs some backup...

Could you tell me, what makes you think that? What exactly was similar? I've heard this argument so many times and I'm always amused...

In late 30-ties Germans were using tanks and motorized divisions. Basic doctrine for those units was new "Blitzkrieg war" - fast attack of mixed tank-infantry group, supported closely by air units.

In late 30-ties, Soviets were using so called "mechanized groups". Those were mixed tank-cavalry formations based on brigades, designed to create confusion deep in enemy territory, running as far as they could. Basic doctrine for that was so called "Deep operation". Interesting thing about those units is the fact, that they didn't have infantry support - tank in those units served as more advanced cavalryman. They had also almost no logistic support - spped was essential, ability to fight in case of serious opposition - no. Those units were also not intended to break enemy defense - they were supposed to fill a gap after the artillery and infantry with their tanks broken the defense line.

Around 1936-1937 Soviets had so many tanks, that mechanized groups could not take more of them. Groups were reorganized by creating bigger tank brigades (like with over 100 tanks). Speed of those units was not really slower (check the raports from Polish Campaign or Chalkin Gol if you don't believe), and infantry divs recieved rest of the tanks.

Around 1940, when new generation of tanks started to leave production lines (and under German influence - France 1940), new reorganization took place - tank divisions were created. Soviet army stared to modify it's doctrine using German example.

Conclusion - Soviets before the war didn't use similar organization nor doctrine. They had their own concept of tank use, and this concept was more or less used in 1937-1942 years. Later their reorganized tank units gained motorized infantry support (even independent brigades had some infantry sub-units). Their concept only looked similar.


An assembly line is an assembly line. It is a concept where the item being assembled does not normally make a difference. You break a large task into small ones, and then have specifically trained personnel perform each of the small tasks. Why do you think the auto industry was also called upon to build aircraft? Ships are different because they are so large, you can't really move them along an assembly line. The Higgins boats may have been made that way though. A part of the German's tank production problems was that they used locomotive manufactures to handle a sizable chunk of their production.

Ok, we will discuss it on the team forum. Vehicle Mass Production is important tech, and we usually are very cautious in adding something that can potentially make game too easy/too unbalanced.


Thank you for responding. Sometimes posting suggestions is like throwing money down a hole.

No problem. I try as hard as I can to answer all the questions. :)
 

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Some of you may be interested to check out the most recent updates in the Australian CORE group's thread. Our first full game with 0.71 MP was interesting to say the least. I've pasted a few points from my own post as food for thought.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*By the games end the SU had 320 or so land units deployed, many more in the build queue, and around 6200 MP in reserve. This is too much compared to the other nations, especially in light of the big restrictions on allied, and Japanese MP pre-war.

*Crushing Germany was fun, but there needs more balance. Both myself and Mike who played Germany are of equal ability, but this was very, very one sided.

*The SU's land tech is too high to start, or it's IC needs lowering to compensate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Details in breif:
Historical game all the way through with RL DOW dates for Poland, France, Belguim, Holland & SU.
Very non-RL war in east with Soviets taking Berlin in December 41, and reaching as far west as France before puppeting Germany.

We're having another go to see if these results are repeated, our experiences will be documented in our normal thread.

Thanks as always
 

boromir

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So far it seems mods (CORE 0.71, Starfire at least) favour the Allies too much in MP. I guess its because the mods are designed for SP Germany. I played Starfire MP during the weekend (details in the Starfire thread), and the Axis were badly outgunned,outnumbered,outteched :). The thing I liked about Starfire was the fact that battles lasted so long - this is the first step I guess to making MP wars last longer - past 1941, but there are tech tree weaknesses, and the strengths seem unbalanced.
 

mike8472

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Yes Joel is right, our first test shows the USSR is way over powered comapred to everyone including the US.

Here are some suggestions. Some have been mentioned befor by Steel.

To include Dissent hits for USSR with the purges 3-5% per event.

USSR starts of with 15% Dissent at start of game. If at 15% then purges should be at 3% if lower starting dissent of 10% then purges at 5% dissent.

USSR should not get mass combat minister until war or 1942. Maybe this can be a built in event to give them mass combat minister when war with Germany happens. As USSR having 300+ units and over 6000 manpower is way over the top. having around 3000 manpower in reserve and 300+ units is more RL.

To slow the USSR land techs down. Eg either reduce the techs that they start with or increase Germanies. I would like to see a decrease in USSR as then Germany would not get advantage vs Allies.

Allies need larger manpower events at start of war espically US. The event the US got was for 600 MP i think something along the lines of 1000-1500 for the first year and then maybe 500-600 per year after that with monthly increase as well. By end of 1945 the US would have had over 5000 manpoer to play with form start of war. I think that is realistic over a 4 year peroid from 1941-1945.

Japan needs larger MP increases befor WAR with US. Something along the lines of say 500.

Germaines manpower is Ok for now if used wisely with a few larger events gains now. But still when you get to late 1942 early 1943 they need new increases to sybolise full mobilisation of the nation for war. Around 500 would do i think, and a masscombat minister.

This is the only way for a game to last till 1945 with all very experienced players. Steel if you could do modifications we would be happy to beta test it.
 

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Ok, I wasn't expecting the comment on Japan... they've really been strengthened quite a lot already. I guess we can look at re-enabling all the divisions that were commented out in the INC file and add some additional manpower gains to a couple of the events.

Anyway, thanks for all the feedback guys :)
 

mike8472

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What events were strengthened fpr Japan. As Japan didnt experience and MP events keeping them to a small army. They only got events a fewm onths after war with the US.
 

Steel

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Mobilisation events
492105 200 MP
492106 300 MP
492107 500 MP (alternate to above)
--------------
500 MP total

Other events
492057 800 MP
492058 600 MP
492062 200 MP
492067 200 MP
--------------
1800 MP total

Grand total 2300 MP from events, plus provincial manpower (normally from 1937) and IIRC they have at least one minister who boosts MP gain.
 

veritas

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Thanks for you afford! I have a lot fun with c.o.r.e. :)

Anyway, playing via direct IP connect the game crashes often. Italy has now 6000 MP cause there are some events kicking back in on reload. The same for the germans. Due to crashes and reloading the game, "An even hand in ... country" events kicks back in. The same with that event where the germans give 10000 coal to italy. Are the events suppose to kick back in every 2 or 3 months?

Is there a difference(stability) if i play mp games via valkyrie net or direct IP connect?

Regards
 

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veritas said:
Thanks for you afford! I have a lot fun with c.o.r.e. :)

Anyway, playing via direct IP connect the game crashes often. Italy has now 6000 MP cause there are some events kicking back in on reload. The same for the germans. Due to crashes and reloading the game, "An even hand in ... country" events kicks back in. The same with that event where the germans give 10000 coal to italy. Are the events suppose to kick back in every 2 or 3 months?

Is there a difference(stability) if i play mp games via valkyrie net or direct IP connect?

Regards
Are you using the v0.71MP download? The single-player version uses mod-dir which has severe stability problems in multi-player.
 

veritas

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Yep, im using v0.71MP on fresh installation and followed the installation steps on core mainpage.

Edit: nm, i think i just ran into the "normal" :( HOI multiplayer savegame problems stated in support/bug forum.
 
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One problem a friend and I experienced was the massive 20% Dissent hit after tho DoW by Germany. I had something along the lines of 5% Dissent at first, which goes up to 25%, then topped off with a tandem 3% occupational policy hit, totalling 31% Dissent within two months! It's brutal to have a third of the industry gone, as well as less capable troops. In addition, never reload. I didn't much appreciate 3 more 3% events going off, pushing me into 40%. I actually just gave that game up. Germany cut me to ribbons and I could'nt do anything but supply my high CG demand and supply my existing troops.

2 Requests: Give the SU the ability to supress Dissent with Manpower. I do believe there was a significant amount of oppression going on.
PLEASE fix the reload options. In another Game as Japan I kept getting the option that gives 400(?) manrower and a pile of ICs on reloads. In the end my economy was at about 850 IC and 5000(!) manpower, with over 250 divs fielded.
 

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Stas said:
One problem a friend and I experienced was the massive 20% Dissent hit after tho DoW by Germany. I had something along the lines of 5% Dissent at first, which goes up to 25%, then topped off with a tandem 3% occupational policy hit, totalling 31% Dissent within two months! It's brutal to have a third of the industry gone, as well as less capable troops. In addition, never reload. I didn't much appreciate 3 more 3% events going off, pushing me into 40%. I actually just gave that game up. Germany cut me to ribbons and I could'nt do anything but supply my high CG demand and supply my existing troops.

2 Requests: Give the SU the ability to supress Dissent with Manpower. I do believe there was a significant amount of oppression going on.
PLEASE fix the reload options. In another Game as Japan I kept getting the option that gives 400(?) manrower and a pile of ICs on reloads. In the end my economy was at about 850 IC and 5000(!) manpower, with over 250 divs fielded.

As I said somewhere else - it happens only, if your co-player (playing Germany) chooses 3rd occupation policy. For now you can use house rule, that he can't. All the other policies got seriously lower dissent hits. :)

2nd request:
You mean events like "Kill 100 manpower, drop dissent -1 point?" I really don't like adding things like that to the mod... :(

3rd:
It vanilla HoI bug - it's just not visible there, since in vanilla HoI there is almost no events. As far as I know it's logged and I hope Paradox will deal with that soon.
 

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Ahh alright thanks re: reload info.

What I had been thinking more along the lines of was (Regarding the 3rd option, which will now be taken out, and therefore making this suggestion somewhat irrelevont) was that it could be like the German occupational policies. When the event triggers, you the player have the option of forcibly quelling the dissent. Perhaps have 3 options, each varying in the amount of MP to supress dissent. Only a thought though.
 

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Some feedback from an italian group

Hi all.
First of all thanks very much for the great work on the CORE project.

I would like to give here some feedback on our MP games.
We're three players and normally play: US/Germany/SOV or UK(with control over Canada/SouthAfrica/Australia)/Germany/SOV.

Our comments:
1. Supply system: for a human player is too far simple handle the supply logistics. Usually Africa falls to the German player, mainly thanks to the fact that annexing Egypt let the german player to build units directly in Africa :eek: and that units in south africa take supply from a convoy to Alexandria if a continous land chain exists.

2. Too low dissent hit for Germany DOWing every european country. Normally when I play Germany I conquer easily France/Benelux/Poland/Hungary/Yugo/Greece/Bulgary/Romania/Checoslovakia and Spain (thus Gibraltar) by the end of 40 gaining a huge amount of reasources and IC base (around 700IC by start of 41). No problem with dissent since some events (Nobel Prizes etc.) and CG can lower the dissent that never raises over 10%. We think that German DOW on Fascist countries should mean a +10% (or even +20%) dissent hit.

3. No supply problem for Germany in Russia: you can arrive til statlingrd in few weeks with your armies fully supplied !! Anyone knows about the big problems germans had converting the rail gauge in Russia ??? :confused:

4. In our games a good German player will always beat to the dust in few weeks tha russian one. We experienced that Russia cannot stand, even with large numbers of divs, a german attack made using around 60 mech divs, 15 armor divs and 20 adv. MR fighters (11 tactical attack :eek: ), around 50 inf divs for the flanks. Make some landings on the black sea and baltic sea to enforce the attack. We think perhaps it's too easy for the german player to concentrate reasearch and production on few very good units (Improved Medium 70mm long tank and Improved/Advanced MR Fighter) able to cripple any defence.

5. The german player is able to keep US out of war simply renouncing to the Sudeti (-20 WE for the US) and keeping down any political action until mid 40; in the mean time Germany can build up a good army and airforce to conquer every country in Europe by the end of 40. Normally US will entry into WAR by the end of 42... enough time to crsh Russia.

6. Perhaps it's too easy for US to conquer Germany. Simply build up an army of around 40mechs, 5armors and 5mountain as long as the necessary 50 tranports. Then make a unique great landing in Hanburg (germany can never afford enough troops in that area to resist such a landing); with the high infrastructure in germany you surely will conquer the major part of german lands before the german player can make any strategic redeploy. try it against the AI and you will win in few weeks.

Any comments are really welcomed. Hope this help.
 

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Panzer4, do you base those comments on the 0.71? :confused:

I ask, because the comments above posted by other players are exact opposite of yours - rest of the players usually see USSR as overpowered, with current cost/time ratio of technologies, you definetly can't have advanced fighters in first half of 1941 and USA tends to have WE 100 in the half of 1940, if alternative VP is not used...

I don't say that your points are not valid, especially in ahistorical game (when players not wait with starting war until 1939), but CORE 0.71 seriously changes whole gameplay compared to 0.64...
 

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Copper Nicus said:
Panzer4, do you base those comments on the 0.71? :confused:

I ask, because the comments above posted by other players are exact opposite of yours - rest of the players usually see USSR as overpowered, with current cost/time ratio of technologies, you definetly can't have advanced fighters in first half of 1941 and USA tends to have WE 100 in the half of 1940, if alternative VP is not used...

I don't say that your points are not valid, especially in ahistorical game (when players not wait with starting war until 1939), but CORE 0.71 seriously changes whole gameplay compared to 0.64...

Sorry, I forgot to note what version we're using.
We're still with CORE 0.64.
 

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Panzer4 said:
Sorry, I forgot to note what version we're using.
We're still with CORE 0.64.

No problem. :)

When you switch on 0.71, post your opinion - from version of 0.72 we plan to modify MP versions of CORE to better suit them for multiplayer (balancing things, removing/adding some elements).
 

unmerged(25898)

Sergeant
Feb 18, 2004
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0
Could diplomacy be alltered for multiplayer a bit. Currently there is normal week limit before next diplomatic action and this makes multiplayer experience pretty annoying for brits (and germany a bit). It very neccessary to give techs to your allies and brits got a lot of them and germany has quite a few too. Allies are 50 techs behind basically means that you would have to pause the game every week for one year to give all the techs for them.

This won't be a problem later in game when allies have catched up, but during first 1-2 years it would slow the game down a lot, when other countries would like to play with fast speed.

I would suggest removing the diplomats travelling times, so you could give all the techs on one turn in the start.
 

Chaplain

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Fromagee said:
I would suggest removing the diplomats travelling times, so you could give all the techs on one turn in the start.

That is a terrible idea (IMO) - the sharing of techs should be decreased, not increased. It's not just a matter of handing over some schematics - you've got to teach people, retool factories, reorganize tactics - I would increase the tech-sharing to no more than once per month, personally.