C.O.R.E HOI - Western Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iberia, etc)

[Der Bismarck]

Belgian Air oob 1940

Aéronautique Militaire Belge
Order of Battle, 10th May 1940

1er Régiment d'Aéronautique (1st Air Regiment - Observation and Army Cooperation)

2e Régiment d'Aéronautique (2nd Air Regiment - Fighters)

3e Régiment d'Aéronautique (3rd Air Regiment - Reconnaissance and Bombers)

Ecoles de Pilotage (Flight Schools)

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1er Régiment d'Aéronautique
1st Air Regiment (Observation and Army Cooperation).

Ier Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to 1re Escadrille "Mouette" (1/I/1) Fairey Fox II & III 10 Deurne Hingene IVe & Ve Corps d'Armées

IIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to
3e Escadrille "Feuille de Houx" (3/II/1) Fairey Fox II 12 Goetsenhoven Glabeek IIe Corps d'Armée

IIIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to
5e Escadrille "Hirondelle" (5/III/1) Fairey Fox III 10 Goetsenhoven Jeneffe IIIe Corps d'Armée & Liège fortress

IVe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to
7e Escadrille "Méphisto" (7/IV/1) Fairey Fox VI 9 Goetsenhoven Lonzee VIIe Corps d'Armée & Namur fortress

Ve Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to 9e Escadrille "Sioux Bleu" (9/V/1) Renard 31 11 Bierset Wilderen Corps de Cavalerie

VIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base Attached to 11e Escadrille "Sioux Rouge" (11/V/1) Renard 31 8 Bierset Hannut Ier Corps d'Armée and later VIe Corps d'Armée


2e Régiment d'Aéronautique

2nd Air Regiment (Fighter).
Ier Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
1e Escadrille "La Comète" (1/I/2) Gloster Gladiator 15 Schaffen Beauchevain & Bevekom

2e Escadrille "Le Chardon" (2/I/2) Hawker Hurricane Mk.I 11 Schaffen Beauchevain & Bevekom

IIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
3e Escadrille "Cocotte Rouge" (3/II/2) Fiat CR 42 14 Nivelles Brustem
4e Escadrille "Cocotte Blanche" (4/II/2) Fiat CR 42 9 Nivelles Brustem
IIIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
5e Escadrille "Aigle Bleu" (5/III/2) Fairey Fox VI 15 Nivelles Vissenaken
6e Escadrille "Aigle Rouge" (6/III/2) Fairey Fox VI 15 Nivelles Vissenaken

3e Régiment d'Aéronautique
3rd Air Regiment (Reconnaissance - Bomber).
Ier Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
1re Escadrille "Dragon Doré" (1/I/3) Fairey Fox III 15 Evère Neerhespen
3e Escadrille "Dragon Argenté" (3/I/3) Fairey Fox III 15 Evère Neerhespen
IIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
9e Escadrille (9/II/3) none - Evère crews operated in 5/III/3
11e Escadrille (11/II/3) none - Evère planned but not yet created
IIIe Groupe
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base Wartime Base
5e Escadrille "Faucon Egyptien" (5/III/3) Fairey Battle 14 Evère Belcele
7e Escadrille "Flèche Ailée" (7/III/3) Fairey Fox VIII 9 Evère Belcele


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Ecoles de Pilotage
Ecole de Pilotage Elémentaire (Basic Flight School)
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base
1ere Escadrille Avro 504, Avro 626, MS 236 &SV4B St-Denijs-Westrem
2e Escadrille (these planes were distributed Gosselies
3e Escadrille thoughout the unit) Deurne
5e Escadrille Wevelgem
6e Escadrille Wevelgem
Ecole de Pilotage Avancé (Advanced Flight School)
Unit Aircraft Total Peacetime Base
E.P.A. Fairey Firefly
Fairey Fox
Bréguet XIX
Potez 33
Koolhoven FK 56 ?
?
?
?
12 Wevelgem & Goetsenhoven

Sources: Les Aéronefs de la Force Aérienne Belge (3e partie : 1920-1940), Jean-Luc WAUTHY and Florimond DE NEVE Le Fana de l'Aviation magazine n.306, Mai 1995

 

[Ghost_dk]

NIce catch on the Belgian Airforce

thanx

Ghost_dk

 

[Ghost_dk]

That was my source for some artillery techs also.

What seems odd to me that we had 114.000 men under arms and including reserves which we're called up it was 270.000 men. And if you take in acount that a division consists out of 15.000 men we should have had 18 divisions.

Only at the site there are only 10 divisions listed. Will you make divisions out of the territoriaal regions?

The 1939 Dutch OOB will have

11 Infantry Division
1 Motorized division
5 militia division

If you take out the AA units and HQ command units then 17 divisions should be about right.

Ghost_dk

 

[Der Bismarck]

USSR/USA

also air OOB's for most countries

Ghost_dk

Welcome to the Journal of the Soviet Army. We focus on Soviet Army Orders of Battle 1917-1992.

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http://www.journalsovietarmy.org/

 

[unmerged(13931)]

Has France been underpowered. PaxMondo brought this up earlier and was somehow ignored... Thereafter I did some research and found that France is way underpowered in CORE.

Here are the (needed) basic stats:
1939 Populations
UK - 47.961.000 & Gains 600mp with War
France - 41.600.000m & Gains 200mp total (can this be right)
Italy - 44.223.000 - Gains 600mp with War
Germany - 76.008.000 & Starts with 1800mp

As steel output can be used as a measure of IC I will use it to further my argument (now I mean the finished product Steel, not the Iron Ore used in HOI as a resource).

Steel output in tons with corresponding Core ICs (Normal Settings):

France - 6.221.000 & 186 IC (either underpowered or accurate)
Italy - 2.323.00 & 138 IC (This one seems accurate, just for comparison)
Japan - 5.811.000 & 303 IC (way overpowered)

Now with the above mentioned information it seems that France is given the stiff end when it comes to Manpower and IC's. While I understand that France had manpower shortages (the monthly gain accuratly represents this), their initial manpower boost is out of proportion to the rest of the majors, come on, if Bulgaria can gain 130mp then France must gain more.

Now if this is a balance issue then it is wrong. For the Germans their greatest victory was over the French, which most Historians agree they won by a narrow margin (French politics, lack of C&C, etc..not place to talk here). Now for many players conquering France is pretty easy, in real life this was not the case. So if CORE aims to perfect Historical setups(aka the chances as they were according to the times/conditions) then France should be looked at. As it is right now it is underpowered.

Any replies welcome, especially ones who can explain current setup?

Oh and yes I apologize for the long an boring read (and Yes English is not my native tongue, so sorry again)

 

[Ghost_dk]

Welcome to the Journal of the Soviet Army. We focus on Soviet Army Orders of Battle 1917-1992.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.journalsovietarmy.org/

Unfortunately C.O.R.E. does not have anyone on the team with Orbat subscription but a couple of the guys are considering it.

Ghost_dk

 

[Der Bismarck]

I will make another donation.

Do you take Deutschmarks?

 

[nachinus]

I agree with DF123 about CORE's France, it should be harder to defeat and capable to deploy +-100 divs in May 1940 as historically. Its weak point should be techs, doctrines, leaders and dissent.

 

[Der Bismarck]

France 1940 OOB

Here is the French OOB website:

http://france1940.free.fr/oob/oob.html

 

[unmerged(13931)]

Thank you for the reply (Finally).

1 - I am aware of that site actually and have frequented it. I am not a grognard who looks for absolute historical accuracy, however I merely propose that France be looked at, as it was a significant threat towards Germany. While I am aware that France could never match the manpower or technical prowess of Germany it should provide a challenge worthy of some remembarance (instead of lets see how fast I can get Vichy this time).

2 - I now offer my services to the CORE team, I am starting to understand the coding (actually been editing some of your events, hope u don't mind).
I have actually been creating events reminicint of your balkan rearmarment for the commonwealth countries as they were provided with large quantities of equipment from the Limeys and Yanks, as well as editing the Lend Lease events to signify equipment transfers. If my help is needed/desired email me at cowboy_22124@yahoo.com

3 - I just was wondering why Sweden has such high org values (Paradox nationalism to blame maybe?), same with Switzerland. I know probably it is game balance, but strange none the less.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Do you think Belgium and Czechoslavakia should get intervention events in the Spanish Civil War? There where 14,000 Belgian and 11,000 Czechs volunteered for the Inernational Brigades but do you think with such a large number of volunteers there may have been pressure on these governments to intervene even though the Spanish Republican government didn't ask them? Of course there should be almost no chance of them helping the Republicans but the option maybe should be there

 

[Halibutt]

Nyah, rather not. both countries mentioned were members of the non-intervention comitee and there was barely any chance of them getting involved. And please note that while many volunteers from Czechoslovakia, Belgium, Germany or Poland joined the International Brigades, it was illegal and those who tried to return to their countries were tried and sentenced fo serving in a foreign army.
Cheers

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well thanks for clearing that up. I needed to be sure of the current political situation of those countries and any internal pressure by the population on the government for internvention. I assumed there was support for intervention by the large number of their citizens (in the thousands) who came to volunteer. I see now that was highly unlikely

 

[Atruejedi]

...geeze

France gets 10 dissent points when they do not send volunteers to Republican Spain when the Spanish Civil War breaks out...

And the AI nearly always goes with "Why support this anarchist rabble?"

This is insane... 10 dissent points??? Kind of harsh!!! :wacko:

 

[OHgamer]

France gets 10 dissent points when they do not send volunteers to Republican Spain when the Spanish Civil War breaks out...

And the AI nearly always goes with "Why support this anarchist rabble?"

This is insane... 10 dissent points??? Kind of harsh!!! :wacko:

Not really, the Popular Front government (I think it was in power at that point) was harshly criticized by leftists for not helping the Spanish Republicans against "fascism" so having a dissent spike of 10% of the population doesn't sound that harsh. If it had been like 30 or 40 then yes, but 10% is pretty good for the amount of leftist support was lost to the Blum government as a result.

 

[JRaup]

France gets 10 dissent points when they do not send volunteers to Republican Spain when the Spanish Civil War breaks out...

And the AI nearly always goes with "Why support this anarchist rabble?"

This is insane... 10 dissent points??? Kind of harsh!!! :wacko:

Not really if you look at what did happen in France after they refused to intervene for teh Republicans. There were significant demonstrations, work stoppages and slow downs, editorials flying about with all sorts of accusations (some dating back to 1900 or before!), and lots of public hue and cry. No, 10% is just about right.

 

[OHgamer]

Not really if you look at what did happen in France after they refused to intervene for teh Republicans. There were significant demonstrations, work stoppages and slow downs, editorials flying about with all sorts of accusations (some dating back to 1900 or before!), and lots of public hue and cry. No, 10% is just about right.

Hehe JRaup we must be on the same wavelenght here - posted just about the same answer at the same time.
:rofl:

 

[unmerged(13931)]

Concerning France (the continuance of disc. from what u think thread);
France was primarily defeated Politically, not militarily.

After the French government let Churchill know that the battle for France was doomed, Churchill instructed the BEF to withdraw. This led to weakness in the Allied lines, thus dooming the Belgians (who up to that point had porved their tenacity), whose king promptly surrendered his army to aviod annihalation. In fact many historians wonder why Churchill had blundered so, as he knew the French government had a tendency to "duck tail and run", which he saw happen in WW1.

While at firstsight it seems the French were doomed they had actually not commited major forces to the battle. For instance during the first 2 weeks of the the BoF the Luftwaffe flew 4 times more sorties than the Allies (thus granting them AS), the French had only commited 1/3 of the Armee de L'Air. The primary French thought was one of WW1. Not a turtelage as is proclaimed by many so called historians, but one of attrition. If in fact the battle had lasted longer the Luftwaffe would have dissipated within 3 week, while the German tank forces would have been decimated to the near point of non-existince if the casualty rate had continued; even at a smaller rate, as the Germans hadn't even replaced their tank losses in Poland (esp. the much needed PZIIIs) through production.

While I do acknowledge that the Allied high command blundered terribly by the "Grand Manuevre" (the move north), this combined with a lack of speedy reaction to the German "sickle Cut" led to a catastrophe of epic proportions. Yet I disagree with the way HOI and to a lesser extent CORE (which is looking to fix France) depict France.

 

[unmerged(13931)]

Many times while playing I have seen an event called demorilization of the French Army. I have looked for this file, and have yet to find it (although I believe it is an AI only file), yet I disagree with this concept. The French soldier was no less motivated than a German or British one. The Verdun experience makes some sense but an org decrease is not historical (this is what CORE looks for). Instead I vote for events such as the Goverment/High Command is uncertain/panics (+15% Dissent). This has the desired effect as it will impact French combat capability/effectiveness. If not then perhaps there should be a tech called British caution/lethargy/planning (+5% Org, - xland speed), after all there is significant historical data to support the fact that the British officer corp was so rocked by the 1st WW that many officers were not willing to make the neccessary sacrifices.

Sorry, I am rambling incoherently (late night & lots of HOI, u know). I have data to support all my arguments if need be, it is just that my desire to help make HOI and esp CORE what it can be. Which is exactly what it said on the box the day I bought it; A game which allows a player to command within the WW2 realm with all the historical limitations. I believe this is what CORE also stands for, if not please correct me. I do have have tons of data, which may or may not help (my new IT job gives me unique access to info)

If u all believe I am just a rambling Joe who wants the game his way or else, then tell me so I can fade back into the background as just another viewer on this maginificent board.

Ah, thats it. (looks at posts and asks why?, then realizes it is sleep depravation)

 

[JRaup]

Hehe JRaup we must be on the same wavelenght here - posted just about the same answer at the same time.
:rofl:

Hehe..happens to the best of us.