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My thinking is that this has real potential. I'm very eager to see further results of discovery in this vein, which may well clear up one of the thorniest dilemmas one faces in the quest for realistic behaviour.
jkk
This could be an interesting way around the Vichy "bug." Previously, I had been looking at the events surrounding Mark Clark's mission to Darlan in Algeria, as well as the German dissolution of Vichy, and the French colonies switching sides. I'm still experimenting with that, with mixed results so far.
From what I see, the problems revolve around Germany taking control of Vichy and making it a puppet state, forcing Vichy to join the Axis. If, in that chain, we can keep Vichy neutral, and still a puppet, we will go far in resolving this. Combine this with the Darlan events, and the dissolution of Vichy, and we may have a better solution, or at least a more comprehensive solution.
Certainly we should continue along these lines. OHGamer's idea should be the basis, and we just need to expand and refine it.
From what I see, the problems revolve around Germany taking control of Vichy and making it a puppet state, forcing Vichy to join the Axis. If, in that chain, we can keep Vichy neutral, and still a puppet, we will go far in resolving this. Combine this with the Darlan events, and the dissolution of Vichy, and we may have a better solution, or at least a more comprehensive solution.
Certainly we should continue along these lines. OHGamer's idea should be the basis, and we just need to expand and refine it.
Found the post about the problem, and it wasn't about the independence itself, it was about SPA recognizing it. And, as I can't find the error in the latest version, I'm guessing it was fixed (or I was seeing things when I noticed it)
I don't see anything wrong with the triggers for the independence event, either.
Maybe it's just a lot harder for SPA to meet the conditions for CAT than ESK.
I don't see anything wrong with the triggers for the independence event, either.
Maybe it's just a lot harder for SPA to meet the conditions for CAT than ESK.
Originally posted by Generalisimo
why Toulon and Corcica to Free France?
currently the "Vichy" thing is totally bugged...
i do not know, but i havent heard of any Vichy army having fought against Free France in real life, but in the game it happens all the time...
I think that just give military access to germany, so they can use all the land of Vichy France to move their troops.
Making Vichy disappear will be ahistorical...
General, check my post in the wiki. And there was fighting between the two in most of the French colonies. Technically non-communist guerilla groups were often considered "Free French" as well so yes there were battles between the two sides throughout the conflict - in the nature of a civil war, mind you.
Edit - woops I was replying to a comment you made several pages back...must've clicked on the wrong page number thinking it was more recent.
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The thing is, Vichy France never made any offensive moves against the Allies. They were attacked by the British and Free French at Dakar in 1940, Syria in 1941 and Madagascar in 1942. By the British and Americans in Algeria and Morocco in 1942 as well. However, Vichy France did not do any offensive moves of their own.
I think that we should...
#1. Keep Vichy out of the Axis, but at war against the Allies.
#2. Have a very high ENEMY HANDICAP and PASSIVITY in the Vichy AI file toward the Allies, so they will not do any attacks against the Allies and will primarily just defend (which is what they did).
#3. There must be some sort of even that eliminates Vichy and has them be effectively annexed by France, if certain criteria are met (such as America in the war, Algeria under attack, Syria and/or Madagascar lost, etc...).
I think that we should...
#1. Keep Vichy out of the Axis, but at war against the Allies.
#2. Have a very high ENEMY HANDICAP and PASSIVITY in the Vichy AI file toward the Allies, so they will not do any attacks against the Allies and will primarily just defend (which is what they did).
#3. There must be some sort of even that eliminates Vichy and has them be effectively annexed by France, if certain criteria are met (such as America in the war, Algeria under attack, Syria and/or Madagascar lost, etc...).
True on the first part - they were determined to keep what they had but not in going beyond the borders, although from what I have read on Vichy there were some who argued after the defeat of the Anglo-Free French attack in Dakar to launch attacks into the British W African colonies so at least some elements in Vichy had a more agressive stance.
Agree on #1 and #2, As or #3 I am scripting a series of events that transfers the Vichy holdings in Africa and elsewhere (if not already seized by the Allies) back to Free France. Mainland Vichy should remain Vichy until occuped by the Allies, and then turn these provinces over to Free France. An early turn of Vichy to Free France would restore a Free-French presence on mainland Europe that would quite likely get crushed rapidly by the Germans and Italians.
some ideas for Benelux
Hi everybody, I’ve not read everything that has been written, because of a very slow modem. I’ll propose different things for this great game, sorry in advance if already said/discussed. I don’t have the software and the knowledge to propose more than text.
NETHERLANDS:
Dutch Army capitulated on the 15th of May, only 5 days after the beginning of the German assault. This was due to an overwhelming German strength, the wish to reduce civilian casualties and the heavy bombing of Rotterdam. Personally I would do the following stuff about this country :
After Axis at war with Netherlands and has taken 2 out of the 4 Dutch territories, Germany could have the following Event happening to them:
Bombing cities could speed up the war !
NO : “We should avoid civilian casualties” (Germany refused to bomb innocent civilians).
YES : “Rotterdam bombed by the Luftwaffe causing heavy civilian casualties”
If YES chosen :
USA War Entry +2 / Supplies –50 for Germany
The following event is tested :
“After terror bombing of its cities the Dutch Army has capitulated to avoid useless casualties among civilians”
All Dutch ground and air units are eliminated, the manpower is reduced to 0, the fleets would have 50% chance to become UK and 50% destroyed. Of course, all ground and air units and fleets based in the Dutch Indies are not concerned by this. The only way for Netherlands to build more troops is by using the manpower increase from its colonies. The country stays with the allies with the capital in Djakarta.
or “Dutch Army still standing against all odds” : (no effect)
When all 4 territories under German Control :
“The Dutch Army has capitulated but the Queen announced that the war is not over”
All Dutch ground and air units are eliminated, the manpower is reduced to 0, the fleets would have 50% chance to become UK and 50% destroyed. The fleets could arrive in any british port with 0 org. Of course, all the ground and air units and fleets based in the Dutch Indies are not concerned by this. The only way for Netherlands to build more troops is by using the manpower increase from its colonies. The country stays with the allies with the capital in Djakarta.
EVENT : “US Army is deployed in Dutch Guyana”
USA : +250 Rubber
On the 23rd November 1941 the Dutch government unable to protect the Dutch Guyana allowed the USA to occupy these territories. In HoI terms this could happen only if all 4 Dutch territories in Europe are under Axis control. The increase in rubber is to simulate the fact that bauxite mines were protected by the USA.
BELGIUM:
Despite its weaknesses the Belgian Army tried its best to stop the invasion of the country. Once cut off in the Dunkerque pocket, unable to build up new forces the king Leopold III decided to sign the capitulation on the 28th of May. Some divisions only had just above a 1000 men left. The two following event could happen for Belgium :
Once the three Belgian territories are under German control the following event happens to Belgium :
“The Belgian Army is reaching its limits” : The manpower and the supplies are reduced to 0. This simulates the fact that no more troops can be built up and that the supply system is completely broken.
Once the 3 Belgian territories are under Axis control and also at least 2 French territories adjacent to Belgium ( Sedan and Chaumont for example) the following event could happen :
“ King Leopold III has ordered the capitulation of the Belgian Army” : All the Belgian air, ground and sea units are eliminated from the game except those based in the Belgian Congo or in the Banana port. Manpower is reduced to 0. The country stays with the Allies with its capital initially in Leopoldville with only the resources and supplies available there.
All the events presented tend to simulate the care of the leaders for their people and also the disorganisation of the state once completely invaded.
Bye. Speed.
Hi everybody, I’ve not read everything that has been written, because of a very slow modem. I’ll propose different things for this great game, sorry in advance if already said/discussed. I don’t have the software and the knowledge to propose more than text.
NETHERLANDS:
Dutch Army capitulated on the 15th of May, only 5 days after the beginning of the German assault. This was due to an overwhelming German strength, the wish to reduce civilian casualties and the heavy bombing of Rotterdam. Personally I would do the following stuff about this country :
After Axis at war with Netherlands and has taken 2 out of the 4 Dutch territories, Germany could have the following Event happening to them:
Bombing cities could speed up the war !
NO : “We should avoid civilian casualties” (Germany refused to bomb innocent civilians).
YES : “Rotterdam bombed by the Luftwaffe causing heavy civilian casualties”
If YES chosen :
USA War Entry +2 / Supplies –50 for Germany
The following event is tested :
“After terror bombing of its cities the Dutch Army has capitulated to avoid useless casualties among civilians”
All Dutch ground and air units are eliminated, the manpower is reduced to 0, the fleets would have 50% chance to become UK and 50% destroyed. Of course, all ground and air units and fleets based in the Dutch Indies are not concerned by this. The only way for Netherlands to build more troops is by using the manpower increase from its colonies. The country stays with the allies with the capital in Djakarta.
or “Dutch Army still standing against all odds” : (no effect)
When all 4 territories under German Control :
“The Dutch Army has capitulated but the Queen announced that the war is not over”
All Dutch ground and air units are eliminated, the manpower is reduced to 0, the fleets would have 50% chance to become UK and 50% destroyed. The fleets could arrive in any british port with 0 org. Of course, all the ground and air units and fleets based in the Dutch Indies are not concerned by this. The only way for Netherlands to build more troops is by using the manpower increase from its colonies. The country stays with the allies with the capital in Djakarta.
EVENT : “US Army is deployed in Dutch Guyana”
USA : +250 Rubber
On the 23rd November 1941 the Dutch government unable to protect the Dutch Guyana allowed the USA to occupy these territories. In HoI terms this could happen only if all 4 Dutch territories in Europe are under Axis control. The increase in rubber is to simulate the fact that bauxite mines were protected by the USA.
BELGIUM:
Despite its weaknesses the Belgian Army tried its best to stop the invasion of the country. Once cut off in the Dunkerque pocket, unable to build up new forces the king Leopold III decided to sign the capitulation on the 28th of May. Some divisions only had just above a 1000 men left. The two following event could happen for Belgium :
Once the three Belgian territories are under German control the following event happens to Belgium :
“The Belgian Army is reaching its limits” : The manpower and the supplies are reduced to 0. This simulates the fact that no more troops can be built up and that the supply system is completely broken.
Once the 3 Belgian territories are under Axis control and also at least 2 French territories adjacent to Belgium ( Sedan and Chaumont for example) the following event could happen :
“ King Leopold III has ordered the capitulation of the Belgian Army” : All the Belgian air, ground and sea units are eliminated from the game except those based in the Belgian Congo or in the Banana port. Manpower is reduced to 0. The country stays with the Allies with its capital initially in Leopoldville with only the resources and supplies available there.
All the events presented tend to simulate the care of the leaders for their people and also the disorganisation of the state once completely invaded.
Bye. Speed.
It would be a pity if Catalonia indep never fires... after all the work looking for ministers, leaders and scanning photos...
some ideas for France
Hi,
Here are some ideas about France and Vichy:
When Vichy is created all French ground and air units should be destroyed wherever they are. This looks hard but even the French troops evacuated by the Dynamo operation from Dunkerque decided to leave England (except a few that joined De Gaulle). Each ship is tested: 75% Toulon / 10% Oran / 10% Dakar / 5% UK - London (ships sent to the redeployment box). The fate of the Fleet was very important. France was not going to sign the Armistice if the Fleet could be under the control of Germany. An event could give two opportunities to Vichy if puppet : Scuttling of the Fleet or transfer to US port until France liberated.
Then the land problem is sorted out with Germany.
If Italy was at war with France there should be another territorial agreement between the two countries. Italy should never have more than its territorial claims. Example: Italy controls Marseille, Toulon and Grenoble. The agreement is the following: Toulon stays in Italian hands and the rest of the territories are exchanged for Corsica and Gabès.
Vichy is then declared Neutral.
Vichy receives its “Armistice Army” :
6 divisions in France
6 divisions in North Africa + 1 Fighter + 1 Tac Bomber
3 divisions in Syria + Lebanon (if Vichy) + 1 Fighter
2 divisions in Indochina if not Japanese
1 division in Dakar
To avoid new units being set up manpower should be at 0.
An Event announces that the General De Gaulle will carry on with the allies.
France receives a division in England with 50 strength. Manpower is at 0.
This way, France doesn’t have 30+ divisions stuck together in French Guyana. For the rest of the game I think that Vichy should stay neutral and not become a German Puppet if possible. An event should oblige Vichy to give supplies + raw materials to Germany every 6 months.
The rest of the game could be sorted out with events. The rest of the war for Vichy and Free France was the following: Attack of the Vichy Fleet in Mers-El-Kébir by UK, attack on Dakar to give De Gaulle a capital, attack and seizure of the AEF (Gabon, Cameroon…), attack on Koufra, liberation of Djibouti, attack on Syria and Lebanon, occupation of Madagascar, operation Torch on North Africa and finally occupation of the “Zone Libre” by Germany and scuttling of the Vichy Fleet in Toulon.
Example : “Operation Catapult”
UK : -250 supplies or more
Vichy : Fleet based in Oran destroyed or no effect (failure)
“Attack on Dakar”
UK : -500 supplies or more
France : Take the control of AOF + receives the infantry division if still there + capital in Dakar or nothing happens (failure)
At the same time Vichy should become more and more fascist through events, which would end up (a year or two after its creation) in Vichy part of the Axis. This allows the Allies to attack North Africa.
Once enough Victory Points are under Allies control in North Africa Germany could react and occupy the rest of Vichy (Zone Libre, Corsica and Tunisia if not Italian). The rest of Vichy becomes Free French if already not the case.
Some units could be created for France with US or UK supplies through events in North Africa : example 2 infantry + 1 mountain
I also think that some events should give back to France territories under Allies control after some conditions are met. Example : Italian Army beaten in Ethiopia, Djibouti British, this triggers the event : “Djibouti back to France”.
About manpower : I would add +2 in Dakar, +1 in Abidjan, +1 in Brazzaville or Libreville.
All this is just an idea for the moment, I could work on it if you guys are interested by some of that. Thank you in advance for replies.
Bye. Speed.
Hi,
Here are some ideas about France and Vichy:
When Vichy is created all French ground and air units should be destroyed wherever they are. This looks hard but even the French troops evacuated by the Dynamo operation from Dunkerque decided to leave England (except a few that joined De Gaulle). Each ship is tested: 75% Toulon / 10% Oran / 10% Dakar / 5% UK - London (ships sent to the redeployment box). The fate of the Fleet was very important. France was not going to sign the Armistice if the Fleet could be under the control of Germany. An event could give two opportunities to Vichy if puppet : Scuttling of the Fleet or transfer to US port until France liberated.
Then the land problem is sorted out with Germany.
If Italy was at war with France there should be another territorial agreement between the two countries. Italy should never have more than its territorial claims. Example: Italy controls Marseille, Toulon and Grenoble. The agreement is the following: Toulon stays in Italian hands and the rest of the territories are exchanged for Corsica and Gabès.
Vichy is then declared Neutral.
Vichy receives its “Armistice Army” :
6 divisions in France
6 divisions in North Africa + 1 Fighter + 1 Tac Bomber
3 divisions in Syria + Lebanon (if Vichy) + 1 Fighter
2 divisions in Indochina if not Japanese
1 division in Dakar
To avoid new units being set up manpower should be at 0.
An Event announces that the General De Gaulle will carry on with the allies.
France receives a division in England with 50 strength. Manpower is at 0.
This way, France doesn’t have 30+ divisions stuck together in French Guyana. For the rest of the game I think that Vichy should stay neutral and not become a German Puppet if possible. An event should oblige Vichy to give supplies + raw materials to Germany every 6 months.
The rest of the game could be sorted out with events. The rest of the war for Vichy and Free France was the following: Attack of the Vichy Fleet in Mers-El-Kébir by UK, attack on Dakar to give De Gaulle a capital, attack and seizure of the AEF (Gabon, Cameroon…), attack on Koufra, liberation of Djibouti, attack on Syria and Lebanon, occupation of Madagascar, operation Torch on North Africa and finally occupation of the “Zone Libre” by Germany and scuttling of the Vichy Fleet in Toulon.
Example : “Operation Catapult”
UK : -250 supplies or more
Vichy : Fleet based in Oran destroyed or no effect (failure)
“Attack on Dakar”
UK : -500 supplies or more
France : Take the control of AOF + receives the infantry division if still there + capital in Dakar or nothing happens (failure)
At the same time Vichy should become more and more fascist through events, which would end up (a year or two after its creation) in Vichy part of the Axis. This allows the Allies to attack North Africa.
Once enough Victory Points are under Allies control in North Africa Germany could react and occupy the rest of Vichy (Zone Libre, Corsica and Tunisia if not Italian). The rest of Vichy becomes Free French if already not the case.
Some units could be created for France with US or UK supplies through events in North Africa : example 2 infantry + 1 mountain
I also think that some events should give back to France territories under Allies control after some conditions are met. Example : Italian Army beaten in Ethiopia, Djibouti British, this triggers the event : “Djibouti back to France”.
About manpower : I would add +2 in Dakar, +1 in Abidjan, +1 in Brazzaville or Libreville.
All this is just an idea for the moment, I could work on it if you guys are interested by some of that. Thank you in advance for replies.
Bye. Speed.
nationalist spain
Hi,
I just found information about Nationalist Spain. Franco signed an agreement with UK on the 2nd of December 1940. All Spanish financial assets there were free again. In exchange Spain decided to stay neutral. It also decided not to allow any military operation through or from its territory. Is there anything in CORE about an event supplies for neutrality?
Bye. Speed.
Hi,
I just found information about Nationalist Spain. Franco signed an agreement with UK on the 2nd of December 1940. All Spanish financial assets there were free again. In exchange Spain decided to stay neutral. It also decided not to allow any military operation through or from its territory. Is there anything in CORE about an event supplies for neutrality?
Bye. Speed.
Not really. With the commencement of Operation Torch, and following Clark's mission to Darlan, the Germans decided to end the state of Vichy. With little resistance from Vichy units in Morrocco and Algeria, Berlin felt that Vichy was a weak point in Fortress Europa. Vichy was dissolved, and the Germans occupied it. It wasn't until Operation Anvil that the Allies made a landing in S.France, following the capture of rome and D-Day.
Re: some ideas for France
Unit interaction is very poor with the commands that we have, so you could just delete random units and make random units change sides, so your suggestiong for the army and the fleet are not posible.
The part about "Italy receives 3 provinces" could be done.
There is an event to put DeGaulle in front of France.
The attacks by events could have no sense because we cannot know where the units are (again, the problem with unit interaction).
There is an idea to make Germany take command of Vichy later in the game.
About manpower, manpower in provinces not connected by land to your capital city doesn't count.
Thanks for your idea!.
sorry, but there is a lot of problems with what you suggest.
Unit interaction is very poor with the commands that we have, so you could just delete random units and make random units change sides, so your suggestiong for the army and the fleet are not posible.
The part about "Italy receives 3 provinces" could be done.
There is an event to put DeGaulle in front of France.
The attacks by events could have no sense because we cannot know where the units are (again, the problem with unit interaction).
There is an idea to make Germany take command of Vichy later in the game.
About manpower, manpower in provinces not connected by land to your capital city doesn't count.
Thanks for your idea!.
Re: Re: some ideas for France
a) be more historically correct
b) let us avoid Fortress Guyana
c) reflect the situation of FF (a very weak state)
d) avoid super Vichy spending most of its' IC to support a huge army just for fun
e) if we decide to delete all units immediately after the Vichy event fires, we'd have no FRA-VIC war and no FF divisions fighting half a year after they capitulated.
The only problem I see is that this would also disband the exp. forces under french control. However they're never that strong in numbers (apart from the belgian army) and most of the countries sending (and loosing) them could recover quite quickly. GB, CAN and AUS are the best examples. And the rest really shouldn't be able to recover those units (like Belgium, for instance).
Cheers
We could still disband all french units (in both the collaborationist France and the FF) and then add the historical number of units. IMO this would
a) be more historically correct
b) let us avoid Fortress Guyana
c) reflect the situation of FF (a very weak state)
d) avoid super Vichy spending most of its' IC to support a huge army just for fun
e) if we decide to delete all units immediately after the Vichy event fires, we'd have no FRA-VIC war and no FF divisions fighting half a year after they capitulated.
The only problem I see is that this would also disband the exp. forces under french control. However they're never that strong in numbers (apart from the belgian army) and most of the countries sending (and loosing) them could recover quite quickly. GB, CAN and AUS are the best examples. And the rest really shouldn't be able to recover those units (like Belgium, for instance).
Cheers
Fortress Guyana should not exist anyways as French Guiana was one of the last colonies to switch from Vichy to Free French control (March '43).
Hope to get some time this weekend to work more on this Vichy project.
Hope to get some time this weekend to work more on this Vichy project.
Re: Re: Re: some ideas for France
o
if you remove fortress guayana say goodbye to France, because Argentina or any american axis country will invade Free France and they will not exist anymore...
o
maybe this approach to put FF somewhere else... but they should be able to defend theirself.... not only be historical... remember that we need to handle the engine, here there is no "government in exile" or anything like that...