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McNaughton

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Air and armour combined assaults were developed by the British and French at the end of WW1, but were not put into effective and total practice. WW2 would have been a lot different had WW1 lasted into 1919.

Britain and France were leaders in combined arms theory, but unfortunately their high commands were not keen in implementing the lessons. What would make HoI good is to allow for some change in historic paths, but not to have France easily emulate Germany in 1939. Britain didn't set up their own armoured division until they saw how effective Germany was in Poland, even though they had extensive tests with their "Mobile Division" in the 1930's.

There was a high command in both Britain and France, as well as a memory of the losses of WW1 that dictated their strategies more than any individual could.

However, I don't see this as a total impossibility. How about an event that allows for the change of doctrine, to offensive doctrine, but in response you have a series of large scale retirements from your officer pool and dissent raising (from the population seeing such a large number of generals leaving the army). There is nothing worse than a top ranking general being told that their military thinking is outdated and backward, and pride would tend to override national interest, especially in this era.

Even when Mitchell showed that air power was the next dominating factor he was unable to totally convince the Admiralty that carriers should be seen as the core of a battle fleet rather than its eyes. It is hard to change strategic doctrines when the current high command is based on leaders who developed the current mode of thought. Germany was fortunate, as they created their high command which was based upon the new lessons, since there was not an old one to tear down.
 

Bakta

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The problem stems more from politics than from military high command. Britain and France had diverging interests in many accounts (eg Britain Locarno's side treaty with Germany (the one about U-boats), France's "secret protocol" with Italy in 35(Austria's mutual defence pact)) which would often, if not always, sell their allie's interests for the sake of their own (of lack of in case of France).

B
 

forezjohn

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about french doctrine

The problem in France was with the polotics and the high command
Gamelin, Pétain etc... were dominant in th french high command and were saying to the politics that france was protected by maginot line and the ardennes(in a kriegspiel gamelin(not certain it was him) was beaten by a fast attack in the ardennes forest he then said "No one can pass through the ardennes").
Of course if there would have been a strong person that was in the lead of France the things could have changed(paul reynaud tried but it was in 40, so too late!) despite the high command.

Another point, I think that France should have the choice to protect czecoslovakia for the sudeten land crise( and also should have england), there was a secret alliance between france and czecoslvakia, i don't know for england.
Of course this would increase dissent because the people in this countries "don't want to die for the sudeten
 

Ghost_dk

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Re: about french doctrine

Originally posted by forezjohn

Another point, I think that France should have the choice to protect czecoslovakia for the sudeten land crise( and also should have england), there was a secret alliance between france and czecoslvakia, i don't know for england.
Of course this would increase dissent because the people in this countries "don't want to die for the sudeten

Ï know what yo meen by the french-chezk alliance. Actually it wasnt so secret at all. At least hitler knew.

in 37-38 a lot of effort by france was put into making life safer for the east-european countries. In particula czekoslovakia.

The following agreements were reached.

France entered an agreement that should czekoslovakia be attacked they would intervene on their behalf. Britain made it clear that in such case they could not promise to help, as France would be considered the agressor and this was not considered part of the UK-France alliance.

When tension raised in sudentenland due to the German propagandamachine czekoslovia turned to France and Russia for help.

Russia said that in principle they would commit to protecting the czeks, but since they did not share a common border intervention would be considered difficult to say the least, and passage through poland or rumania was not an option due to the recent creation of poland and the soviet demands on rumanian territory.

Faced with this France decided to stall any intervention, as its military was geared for defence and not offense and had no way to get troops to czekoslovakia.

France and Russia washed hands, Britain was relieved and Germany pleased because it had succeeded in breaking the last of the east-west pacts. The real looser in the game was of course czekoslovakia who had no other option then to sign or perish when it came to the munich agreement.

What i would like to see is a doctrine picturing french military struggles when it came to offense prior to the ourbreak of war in 39

maybe -15 org for all land units prior to 39

Off course this doctrine should be canceled if they are declared war upon by somebody else. Any way we can do this?

any thoughts anyone?

Ghost_dk
 

nachinus

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Originally posted by Gwalcmai
The AI doesn't seem to deploy them, then. When I played the SCW as Nat, I made a point of liberating ESK and they were troopless for a very long while. Apparently about the time it would take to build a militia division, which they then deployed. I didn't see the infantry divisions the event is supposed to add.

So, either the event didn't add them or the AI decided not to deploy them. Considering ESK should show up just owning Bilbao, wouldn't it be easier to just deploy the divisions?

Ive made several SCW tests and ive seen ESK created very frecuently (3 in 7 games, because in the rest of the games i forced the event so ithey doesnt count ;) ...too many times for an ahistorical event IMO), and i can confirm that the event adds those units to the force pool, but the ai seems to take a day or two to deploy them all. In my tests, they could deploy them before being attacked, but if by any chance, Nat Spain was moving a unit to Bilbao when ESK is created it can arrive and take it before the ai deploys the units. Usually theres some SPR unit in Bilbao who can defend it until theyve organized their troops, but if its undefended then the disaster is possible.

I know its s silly ai behaviour, but i dont find it absolutely wrong, because its reasonable that a new nation needs some time to organize its defences.
 

donkeysaint

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Originally posted by nachinus
Ive made several SCW tests and ive seen ESK created very frecuently (3 in 7 games, because in the rest of the games i forced the event so ithey doesnt count ;) ...too many times for an ahistorical event IMO), and i can confirm that the event adds those units to the force pool, but the ai seems to take a day or two to deploy them all. In my tests, they could deploy them before being attacked, but if by any chance, Nat Spain was moving a unit to Bilbao when ESK is created it can arrive and take it before the ai deploys the units. Usually theres some SPR unit in Bilbao who can defend it until theyve organized their troops, but if its undefended then the disaster is possible.

I know its s silly ai behaviour, but i dont find it absolutely wrong, because its reasonable that a new nation needs some time to organize its defences.
I just played a game as SPR and Esukadi got created. They did however not deploy any troops, and the SPR militia unit I had in Bilbao quickly ran out of org and was an easy prey for the SPA attack that came at least a month after the creation of ESK. And no troops from ESK showed up.

1. Shouldn't SPR give an recieve military acces to ESK? It does not seem to happen now. I even tried to negociate an acces-treaty, but the option 'was greyed out'.

2. I have seen ESK created two times now whitout them deploying troops and eventually get annexed. It's strange that we get different results on this..(?)
 

Gwalcmai

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Originally posted by Generalisimo
I didn't thought about that... :rolleyes:
Well, so let's wait for his confirmation then... :D

Yes, I played as SPA to cut off Bilbao and let the independence fire. If I had played as SPR, chances are SPA would have just taken Bilbao and ruined my test. And the troops didn't show up.

Considering the whole point of the game was getting that event to fire to see if the fix worked, it would have been very silly to bypass it.
 

Steel

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I just finished a 1936-1939 run with Republican Spain to test some changes I did in v0.61 and also to evaluate some conversion changes that I pulled from v0.61 at the last moment.

- There was 2 elections in 1936, one looked like a standard Paradox election (minister file) and the other like an event. Intentional?

- The entire war was fought with Great War tanks. Shouldn't Spain be the proving ground for German PzII, Italian tankettes and Soviet T-28 tanks? I didn't check NatSpain techs, but certainly it looked to me like RepSpain should receive some armor tech.

- Same thing applies for fighters.

- The end of war dissent reduction was 5 points, at that time I still had 20 points of dissent and I had put a lot of IC into reducing it. Maybe the reduction should be a little higher?

- Service rifle was received through events, so the fix for that problem was effective (don't remember now who reported it).
 

Halibutt

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Originally posted by Steel
(...)- The end of war dissent reduction was 5 points, at that time I still had 20 points of dissent and I had put a lot of IC into reducing it. Maybe the reduction should be a little higher?(...)
I was thinking of increasing it. After SCW ended, Spain was completely and utterly destroyed. AFAIR some 25% of production, some up to 40% of infrastructure -- destroyed. Plus all the Franco repressions (the reps would do something similar, I guess), emigration, debts... 20% might be still to low. If you want me to, I can dig up exact data.
Cheers
 

unmerged(15101)

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I just finished a 1936-1939 run with Republican Spain to test some changes I did in v0.61 and also to evaluate some conversion changes that I pulled from v0.61 at the last moment.

- There was 2 elections in 1936, one looked like a standard Paradox election (minister file) and the other like an event. Intentional?

- The entire war was fought with Great War tanks. Shouldn't Spain be the proving ground for German PzII, Italian tankettes and Soviet T-28 tanks? I didn't check NatSpain techs, but certainly it looked to me like RepSpain should receive some armor tech.

- Same thing applies for fighters.
The 1936 election event is a replacement for the default election, the point was to make sure the election happens before the civil war starts. It makes no sense to go from the Popular Front cabinet back to the moderate conservative cabinet in the middle of the civil war. To avoid having 2 elections in 1936, the ministers_spr.csv file needs to be edited to remove the 1936 election.

I agree about adding some techs, you could add them to either the initial intervention events (3002, 3102) or to nachinus' "advisors and tech" events (802004, 802006). Maybe give SPR the T-26 and Tupolev SB-2, and give SPA the comparable armor tech, and one or more air units (Me109, He112, Ju87). You might want to add some other techs to the France and UK events in the rare chance that those nations get involved.
 
Last edited:

Generalisimo

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Originally posted by Steel
I just finished a 1936-1939 run with Republican Spain to test some changes I did in v0.61 and also to evaluate some conversion changes that I pulled from v0.61 at the last moment.

- There was 2 elections in 1936, one looked like a standard Paradox election (minister file) and the other like an event. Intentional?

- The entire war was fought with Great War tanks. Shouldn't Spain be the proving ground for German PzII, Italian tankettes and Soviet T-28 tanks? I didn't check NatSpain techs, but certainly it looked to me like RepSpain should receive some armor tech.

- Same thing applies for fighters.

- The end of war dissent reduction was 5 points, at that time I still had 20 points of dissent and I had put a lot of IC into reducing it. Maybe the reduction should be a little higher?

- Service rifle was received through events, so the fix for that problem was effective (don't remember now who reported it).
the 1936 election for SPR must be deleted from the minister file
 

JRaup

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Originally posted by Generalisimo
the 1936 election for SPR must be deleted from the minister file

As a warning, this may cause some CTDs and strange elections. When I was trying to Mod the Eire elections to historical time frames, I ended up getting all four elections in 1936! The only way that I know of to do this properly, is to eliminate ALL the elctions from the minister file, and script events for them, just like the USA has. Birch has also discovered this in his odd attempts to change some of the minister files.
 

JRaup

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Originally posted by barrabas
I just played a game as SPR and Esukadi got created. They did however not deploy any troops, and the SPR militia unit I had in Bilbao quickly ran out of org and was an easy prey for the SPA attack that came at least a month after the creation of ESK. And no troops from ESK showed up.

1. Shouldn't SPR give an recieve military acces to ESK? It does not seem to happen now. I even tried to negociate an acces-treaty, but the option 'was greyed out'.

2. I have seen ESK created two times now whitout them deploying troops and eventually get annexed. It's strange that we get different results on this..(?)

In my latest game as Germany, I finally saw Euskadi created. WooHoo! The Basques deployed 3 divisions (mainly militia), and soon had a 4th. They even managed to take Pamplona before being crushed by the Nationalists. FWIW, SPR maintained two inf divisions in Bilbao for the duration of Euskadis brief moment in the sun.
 

unmerged(18202)

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Originally posted by JRaup
In my latest game as Germany, I finally saw Euskadi created. WooHoo! The Basques deployed 3 divisions (mainly militia), and soon had a 4th. They even managed to take Pamplona before being crushed by the Nationalists. FWIW, SPR maintained two inf divisions in Bilbao for the duration of Euskadis brief moment in the sun.

Before long, you may have unit names in Euskara, even--in fact, the militia divisions will have historical names from the actual Eusko Gudarostea. In my searches for national unit names, I won't say which nationalities have been the least helpful (or someone will probably fly off the handle), but I sure got great responses from both Catalans and Basques--in fact, from every people in the Iberian peninsula. I begin to think that region should be on our vacation plans list for sure.

jkk
 

unmerged(18738)

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Back to France

I like both McNaughton's idea of a remotely possible change regarding French offensive policy. I also think his repercussions are pretty good.

In addition to this possibility, I'd like to see some type of employment of what Ghost_DK talked about: a reduction in French morale until 1939 to emphasize French emphasis on defense. However, it should clearly be removed if the event for a change in French doctrine from defense to offense fires positive.

I think this makes a *whole* lot of interesting things possible. Not the least of which is a possible French intervention in regards to the German pressure on the Czechs. That would be sweet.

So what you'd have is:

1) French forces affected in some manner from gamestart to simulate heavy defensive doctrine.

2) 'Struggle' within French command/politics over defensive or offensive military policy. Obviously the offensive choice is the 'B' option (I've got to think there were at least 5% of the French officials who were for an offensive-capable doctrine). If option 'B' is chosen, then a number of changes occur to French military, both good and bad.

3) Ahistorical event for Czech intervention should Germany push too hard politically or militarily. Intervention is 'B' choice.

All in all, statistically it should occur in line with history almost all the time, but sometimes it could be very interesting.

-PK
 
Last edited:

nachinus

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Originally posted by Fallout_Boy
I agree about adding some techs, you could add them to either the initial intervention events (3002, 3102) or to nachinus' "advisors and tech" events (802004, 802006). Maybe give SPR the T-26 and Tupolev SB-2, and give SPA the comparable armor tech, and one or more air units (Me109, He112, Ju87). You might want to add some other techs to the France and UK events in the rare chance that those nations get involved.

I agree about making SPA and SPR fight SCW with more historical techs... but look at the tech tree and to the starting techs for SPR... we should add loooooooots of techs via events. Maybe we could give some more starting techs to SPR, so the amount of techs given via events doesnt look too exagerated.
 

Steel

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Originally posted by nachinus
I agree about making SPA and SPR fight SCW with more historical techs... but look at the tech tree and to the starting techs for SPR... we should add loooooooots of techs via events. Maybe we could give some more starting techs to SPR, so the amount of techs given via events doesnt look too exagerated.


Care to volunteer a revised techapps and techlevels section? :)
 

unmerged(18738)

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Ok, here's a question:

What do you do with the surviving Spanish country after the war is over? Those proposed upgraded techs are meant to simulate German, Soviet, and other countries' doctrines and/or units. Aside from some equipment left in the country, it's not right to leave either country at the elevated tech level we create to simulate the intervention of other advanced military countries.

-PK
 

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Originally posted by Phil K
Ok, here's a question:

What do you do with the surviving Spanish country after the war is over? Those proposed upgraded techs are meant to simulate German, Soviet, and other countries' doctrines and/or units. Aside from some equipment left in the country, it's not right to leave either country at the elevated tech level we create to simulate the intervention of other advanced military countries.

-PK

I think that Spain's problem was not that they were riddled with loads of modern military equipment, but that this equipment soon became obsolete in lieu of the great advances made soon after the end of the conflict in Spain.

Also, they were unable to exploit this technology because their industry and MP was so crippled after the conflict that they could not make additional formations.

I say that Spain should take a major IC and MP hit at the end of the war, representing that the nation was in no state to mobilize itself for another war unless it recieved massive foreign aid (like what the US did with Spain in the 1950's). This should leave Spain in an OK position to match most nations in 1939, but soon will show its age. Spain should not have the economic ability to profit from the tech jump, but use this tech jump to keep potential attackers at bay.
 

unmerged(18202)

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Originally posted by McNaughton
Also, they were unable to exploit this technology because their industry and MP was so crippled after the conflict that they could not make additional formations.

The game already has a way of simulating this, by virtue of the massive (and useless in peacetime) numbers of militia they build, which we cannot have them disband without also randomly scrapping naval and air units. By no means the ideal way, but the crushing support burden of forty militia divisions for a country the size of Spain accomplishes a couple of things; it simulates the large numbers of combat-experienced Spaniards likely to fight in Spain's defense (but uninterested in invading anyplace else, reflected by the absence of offensive firepower), and it simulates the amount that had to be devoted to rebuilding from the ruins.

In my view, it doesn't need to get any worse for Spain. They already lack so many naval techs it takes over a year of giving for them to reach parity; they are as far behind in other techs. Three or four or six techs given to them are a drop in the bucket.

jkk