C.O.R.E HOI - Western Europe (France, Belgium, Netherlands, Switzerland, Iberia, etc)

[JRaup]

Originally posted by John Poole
Actually I think Ireland should have claims over N. Ireland at first and via those events they could make choices to remove that claim for some political advantages. I dont think the UK would have claims though.

Not sure if this is appropriate for this thread (maybe a move to the CW thread? Not sure, I'm a rookie), but, There are some interesting possibilities for Irish-UK relations. The issue of the Treaty Ports was somehat volatile in early to mid 1940 for the RN. I have more info, but I'll await a clarification on where this should be posted.

 

[JRaup]

Originally posted by Burris
It really can't work, if the AI is accomplished correctly, the US would have to DOW for either Operation Torch, or Operation Dragoon.

I think I've got the gist of the issue here.
The problem arises in trying to simulate Torch, whle keeping Vichy semi-neutral. The only way may be to have a set of Darlan related events. The series would go something like this:
US- Inititate Clark's mission to Darlan
A. Yes
B No

A yes would trigger a UK event
A. Go along with idea
B. Balk, and deny assistance

British agreement would then trigger Darlan's options:
A. Agree not to resist (cede Casablanca to US?)
B. Turn Free French (most ahistorical option)
C. Resist Allied landings.

This would give rise to Free France to assassinate Darlan (as they did historically).

Keep in mind also, tis was one of the precipitating factors in the dissolution of Vichy by the Germans in 1942-43.

 

[JRaup]

Originally posted by Lunar
Ack, what about Ireland? It is lacking events. I hope this is the right spot.

1936,June 18
The IRA declared illegal in the IFS.

1938, Feb. 9
The elections in Northern Ireland resulted in an overwhelming victory for the Unionists, thus blasting any hope of merger of the Free State and Northern Ireland.

1939, Jan 16
After issuing an ultimatum on the removal of all British troops from Irish soil, the IRA began its first series of bomb attacks in England (ended May 1940).

And if England or Ireland becomes non-democratic, I think either [or both] of them could very well suddenly have claims over the whole of Ireland.

The Irish Constitution of 1937 (IIRC), was the end of the IFS, with a change to Eire under De Valera. However, I have found no good way to simulate the IRA border campaigns of 1936, 38, and 39-40. Ireland should have a territorial claim on Belfast (prov 493), from the begining, as it was enshrined in every version of the Irish constitution until 2000. The issues of the IRA and the Treaty ports are the most usuable from the period.

 

[JRaup]

A side note on Ireland and the Spanish Civil War. There were Irish volunteers for both the Republicans and the Nationalists. The vast majority fought for the Republicans, Eoin O'Duffy (First Head of the Gardai), led a group of Anglo-Irish war vets to fight for Franco (Nov 36- Jun 37). Frank Ryan led the Irish fighting for the Republicans.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by JRaup
A side note on Ireland and the Spanish Civil War. There were Irish volunteers for both the Republicans and the Nationalists. The vast majority fought for the Republicans, Eoin O'Duffy (First Head of the Gardai), led a group of Anglo-Irish war vets to fight for Franco (Nov 36- Jun 37). Frank Ryan led the Irish fighting for the Republicans.

how many were them?

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
how many were them?

From one source on the web which deals on with the Republican side:

Las Brigades Internacionales, the International Brigades, would eventually include almost 40,000 men and women from 53 different countries, from all around the world.

[SNIP]

The total number of Irish volunteers who came to Spain was 145, of which 60 were killed.

EDIT: Found a source on the Blueshirts as well.

An estimated 750 Blueshirts fought with the Nationalist Army during the war. The Irish volunteers became part of the XV Bandera Irlandesa del Terico of the Spanish Foreign Legion. The Blueshirts suffered heavy losses at Jarama in February 1937.

If somebody can verify these numbers then it would seem Ireland should send 1 MP to Nationalist Spain... The Republican contribution should perhaps be some supplies.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Steel
From one source on the web which deals on with the Republican side:




EDIT: Found a source on the Blueshirts as well.



If somebody can verify these numbers then it would seem Ireland should send 1 MP to Nationalist Spain... The Republican contribution should perhaps be some supplies.

i thought that the numbers were something like that... and i wasn't wrong

 

[brandnew70x7]

Originally posted by JRaup
A side note on Ireland and the Spanish Civil War. There were Irish volunteers for both the Republicans and the Nationalists. The vast majority fought for the Republicans, Eoin O'Duffy (First Head of the Gardai), led a group of Anglo-Irish war vets to fight for Franco (Nov 36- Jun 37). Frank Ryan led the Irish fighting for the Republicans.

If you were to represent them in game terms they would be a 0.25 manpower point..

 

[JRaup]

If somebody can verify these numbers then it would seem Ireland should send 1 MP to Nationalist Spain... The Republican contribution should perhaps be some supplies. [/B]

The numbers look right off the top of my head, but I'd have to check my sources again. Manpower or Supplies from Ireland is probably not going to impact anything, but Frank Ryan and Eoin O'Duffy could be added as leaders for each side. Ryan would be skill 3 commando, and Duffy would be skill 1 Old Guard.

EDIT: Ryan should be a skill 3 Trickster, not commando.

 

[brandnew70x7]

1 MP point = 750 men I believe.. not nearly enough to represent..

 

[JRaup]

Originally posted by Burris
1 MP point = 750 men I believe.. not nearly enough to represent..

Only the blue shirts, but not the pro-republicans. Even then, I doubt the 1 MP would effect anything to warrant anything other than the leaders.

 

[brandnew70x7]

Just forget it.. there are far more important nations that were involved then Ireland. :-/

 

[JRaup]

Originally posted by Burris
Just forget it.. there are far more important nations that were involved then Ireland. :-/

The SCW was just a side note, with no real impact, as I said. (But Afghanistan rates higher? ) However, I do believe that the following Irish related events can have an impact:
1. The Treaty Ports. The RN in 1940-41 wanted these ports to help in their ASW efforts (turn around time for ships and planes), as well as for ports to ease the burden on the western ports of Britain. To whit: Churchill actually offred de Valera Ulster in exchange for the use of the ports, and Irish compliance with the Allied cause. Dev rejected both the original request, and the subsequent offer of Ulster. Churchill also had "Operation W," which was a plan to sieze the Treaty Ports by force, and/or react to a potential German invasion of Ireland. Dev did offer the use of the ports to the Americans in mid-1942 (after his protest about US troops in Ulster), but the US turned him down after consulting with the Brits.
2. Irish volunteers for Britain. Some 40,000+ Irish entered into service with the British between 1940-45, with an additional 12,000+ going to work in the factories in Ulster and in the mainland.
3. The Irish Constitution of 1937 chnaged much of the Anglo-Irish relationship. Prior to this, George V would have been head of state for the Irish Free State (not De Valera as is listed in the game). the 37 referendum changed that, and in 1938, Douglas Hyde became President of Eire, and thus the new HoS.
4. The Economic War 1932-48. This was a testy issue at the time for both Britain and Ireland. Resources and good flowing between the two was important to both sides.
5. the external relations Act (1937/38) effectively removed Eire from the Commonwealth, and coinciced with the abdication of Edward VIII, giving Britain no opportunity to protest.
6. IRA border campaigns and flirting with German assistance. The border campaigns of 36 (negligible), 38 (same), and 39-40 (more effective, and targeted mainland England). Add the tenuous contacts between the Abwher and the IRA, and the German Fall Grun plan (same name as the Czechoslovakia operation), as part of Sea Lion may be relaized (AI issues aside). Though modelling the border capmaigns may be problematic.
7. repatriation of downed Allied airmen and naval personel. while as a neutral nation, Ireland should have interned all beligerant servicemen captured or rescued in their territory. This generally only applied to Axis personel, as Allied personel were often listed as "escaped" (that is, taken to the border and returned to the allies).
8. Ireland's declaration of Neutrality (Sep 3 1939), caused a good deal of dissent and upset in Britain, especially so in Ulster.

And that's just off the top of my head. Besides, the ministers file for Ireland needs a revamp to better show the historical dynamic.

 

[MateDow]

I like the sound of these events. It makes Ireland an interesting place. The posibility of Ireland siding with Germany to gain back Ulster sounds historically possible. It definitely would add historical flavor. Are you volunteering to code it? MDow

 

[JRaup]

Originally posted by MateDow
I like the sound of these events. It makes Ireland an interesting place. The posibility of Ireland siding with Germany to gain back Ulster sounds historically possible. It definitely would add historical flavor. Are you volunteering to code it? MDow

Two things here:
1. Ireland in almost any case would not have sided with the Germans. The people in Eire at the time were kind of two minds concerning the war. Morally, they supported the Allied effort, but much like Spain, they had only recently come out of a viscious civil war (following the Black and Tan war). Opinions clearly supported Dev's neutrality stance for the nation, but as evidenced by Irish volunteers for the British forces, they saw the need to fight in Europe.

2. Yes, I can code these. It was my first attempts to code these that I came to the board originally, but got sucked in here by reading some great posts and terrific ideas. Some are fairly straight forward, like the 37 constitution, while things like the IRA campaigns I can't find a suitable method of handling.
On a related question: Are IC losses from events permanent or temporary? This may make some aspects far easier if they are temporary.

Now I just need a spreadsheet that handles csv files correctly, that won't cost me an arm, a leg, or my soul.

 

[Halibutt]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
I know, this event is screwed. Too low dissent. But hopefully after adding your events we will change it that in case of polish alliance with UK Poland will always answer "no".

I agree that after all the polish propaganda in the twenties and the thirties giving away the Baltic coast would mean a huge dissent hit.

Anyway, chance for Polish neutrality is about 4,7% (0,95 x 0,05). You may think this is not much, but I think otherwise.

Note that the way it is now, the only chance for polish neutrality is giving away Danzig in 'Danzig or war' event. There's almost no way Poland can survive until the fall of France...

Sorry, but it's very simplified view of Polish history. Poland was not really interested in Belorussia - after war of 1920 Poland decided to leave Minsk for USSR because there were very few polish citizens. The same thing with Baltic States - Poland actively supported Latvia in their fight for independence. Some more complications were with Lithuania - but Wilno was mostly everything Poles wanted from them. Maybe if polish National Democrats Party were in power, then this could happen, but not with 1939 goverment.

Nope, no chance for such claims, especially if the National Democracy seizes power. Note that after WWI Dmowski was opting for smaller Poland but with less minorities. The only two governements I can think of that would accept such a compensation in the east (Kaunas, Minsk, road to Odessa) would be Shadow Fascist and... Paternal Autocrat. The latter, however, was a democratic one and would fear the dissent hit...
Cheers

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Halibutt
Nope, no chance for such claims, especially if the National Democracy seizes power. Note that after WWI Dmowski was opting for smaller Poland but with less minorities. The only two governements I can think of that would accept such a compensation in the east (Kaunas, Minsk, road to Odessa) would be Shadow Fascist and... Paternal Autocrat. The latter, however, was a democratic one and would fear the dissent hit...

Yes, same conclusions. I sent to Generalissimo corrected version of Danzig or War event - now it's harder to stop war, but if it happens, Poland gets dissent hit same as Chechoslovakia in alternative Sudeten event (-20%) and is moved closer to the fascist allignment (50 points).
If we start writing alternative history AFTER giving up Gdansk, then we could consider next German demands - this time for Silesia (Cieszyn?) and proposition of joining Axis. Of course it would be highly unprobable, but still it could be interesting (especially for Polish players, since they could seriously rise the chance for this alliance).

What do you think?

 

[brandnew70x7]

Originally posted by JRaup
The SCW was just a side note, with no real impact, as I said. (But Afghanistan rates higher? )

Yes, yes they do. Afghanistan has more of an impact on the war as it is in a strategically important location.

If you were to add an Irish event of purpose.. talk about the thousands of volunteers of the Republic.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by JRaup
Are IC losses from events permanent or temporary? This may make some aspects far easier if they are temporary.

Now I just need a spreadsheet that handles csv files correctly, that won't cost me an arm, a leg, or my soul.

IC losses are permanent, infraestructure losses are temporary.

Instead of a spreadsheet use NotePad (you will have a hard time with the columns, but with some files is more easy that way)

if you could code the events it will be better, just post them when you have it, and we discuss minor changes (if it is necesary )

 

[brandnew70x7]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Yes, same conclusions. I sent to Generalissimo corrected version of Danzig or War event - now it's harder to stop war, but if it happens, Poland gets dissent hit same as Chechoslovakia in alternative Sudeten event (-20%) and is moved closer to the fascist allignment (50 points).
If we start writing alternative history AFTER giving up Gdansk, then we could consider next German demands - this time for Silesia (Cieszyn?) and proposition of joining Axis. Of course it would be highly unprobable, but still it could be interesting (especially for Polish players, since they could seriously rise the chance for this alliance).

What do you think?

I agree that this is a good idea, but I dont see how Poland could ever stop the soviets on its own. You cetrainly cant count on the AI to station where you are, and all the territory would goto poland.