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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Asudulayev

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Pro_Consul said:
can't speak for anyone else, but I most certainly am NOT trying to make the game easier to play as the USSR. I am trying to make the USSR realistically difficult to conquer when playing as Germany. That is the one thing that spoils things for me when I play as Germany. Even at high difficulty, conquering the USSR is just too easy for a human controlled Germany.

USSR is a bit too easy to conquer, but than agian so is the UK and France and Poland and Norway and Sweden and Denmark and any other nation in the vicinity. Yet we are not talking about pumping the UK up (IMO the UK is so weak that it is not that interestign to play as them). Germany is really far too strong for its own good. Mainly because Germany gets Units and techs through events, id that was stopped Germany would be a much more difficult game, but not to too difficult, so it would be alright.

Pro_Consul said:
I have a secondary objective, which is somewhat at odds with the primary one, which is to make the USSR event and tech situation more detailed and rich as what CORE has done for many of the other countries. I think that so far CORE has neglected the USSR somewhat, probably due to lack of interest from people who are fixated on playing other countries.

I agree, there is a lack of flavor events, much like lack of hypothetical events, Germany had the New Woeld Order events, shouldn't the USSR have hem also, since it is quite possible to conquer (puppet or take into alliance) every continent with the exception of North/South America (Damn you Logistics Penanlty). However by giving the USSR the (lend Lease events, with veachiles) we must also find a way to simulate the horrendouse losses of August 1941-October 1941, where almost the entire VVS (Airforce) was litetally flattened by German Tanks in their own airfields. Or the massive encirclement. Since none of the above are in the game, there really should not be any lend-lease veachle events, unless ofcourse they are made to be AI only events.
 

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Asudulayev said:
USSR is a bit too easy to conquer, but than agian so is the UK and France and Poland and Norway and Sweden and Denmark and any other nation in the vicinity.

There is big difference, however. With the exception of the UK, all of those countries were historically easy conquests for Germany. The USSR most definitely was not! And the UK conquest is not all that easy, because the very act of invading England almost always brings the US into the war. Even if you manage to take the home islands, the US will often either kick you back out or make it prohibitively expensive to defend them. Although for the most part I agree that it should be harder than it is to conquer the UK.

Asudulayev said:
I agree, there is a lack of flavor events, much like lack of hypothetical events, Germany had the New Woeld Order events, shouldn't the USSR have hem also, since it is quite possible to conquer (puppet or take into alliance) every continent with the exception of North/South America (Damn you Logistics Penanlty). However by giving the USSR the (lend Lease events, with veachiles) we must also find a way to simulate the horrendouse losses of August 1941-October 1941, where almost the entire VVS (Airforce) was litetally flattened by German Tanks in their own airfields. Or the massive encirclement. Since none of the above are in the game, there really should not be any lend-lease veachle events, unless ofcourse they are made to be AI only events.

Now there is an interesting thought to toy with with....AI only events for the USSR which simulate such things as their terrible initial disorganization or their initial strategy of sacrificing huge, poorly armed formations just to slow the Germans, because they had them to throw away. That one alone could easily be represented with a large manpower hit and a moderate dissent hit.
 

unmerged(12895)

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Wotcher,

As far as more flavour and hypothetical events go, what about some of the following.

During 1944 a number of decisions were made as to the reaction of the State to returned soldiers and POWs. These decisions should trigger after the "crisis" decisions about "not one step back" and can only trigger during a Patriotic War. An ahistorical response should only be allowed if in 1942 and 1943 the more objectionable political orders were not made (not one step back &tc.) Historical response gives minor dissent, reduces man-power significantly. But the important thing about POW treatment, is that it reflects a change in Stalin's attitudes, from the late 30s purge mentality back to a late 20s crisis of capitalism adventurism.

A more humane response changes JS (Stalinist) to JS (Leninist) as state leader, corresponding cabinet changes. More than minor dissent, man-power increases.

Should a more humane response be taken, /and/ the Comintern still exist, trigger a choice about internationalism. "War brings crisis to capitalism, exploit the crisis?"
No choice (default ahistorical) causes UN event chain to trigger
Yes choice (abberant ahistorical) triggers events in (allied nations) France, Italy, Greece causing massive dissent. Triggers should include no Vichy for France, no Italian Social Republic for Italy. Greece should be whole. Also need civil war events for France, Italy and Greece on the level of the Spanish Civil War.

So there's a bit of ahistorical flavour. Suits the old fashioned Comintern stuff. Requires a "Leninist" Stalin, because Stalin's adventurism was imperialist, not revolutionary, historically. Also requires success by the allies in Western Europe.

This outcome reflects Stalin deciding not to divide Europe, but to pursue communist revolution. A good start point for a continuation war in 194x.

thoughts?
 

unmerged(12895)

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Obviously I'm making a few assumptions.
1) The Not One Step Back style choices are actually choices
2) Dissolution of the Comintern event chain (really important)
a) This event chain should be like the unholy alliance
b) It should result in the folding of the USSR into the Allies
c) Allies move towards Communism, USSR moves towards democracy
d) Allows for the division of Europe event chain, and events creating the puppet states (Italy, France, Greece, Eastern Europe &tc) naturally
e) Biases things towards Allied-Comintern peace post-WWII in a serious way - no competing alliance.
3) People would want to see more spanish style chaos in Europe post-war.
 

Asudulayev

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Pro_Consul said:
There is big difference, however. With the exception of the UK, all of those countries were historically easy conquests for Germany. The USSR most definitely was not! And the UK conquest is not all that easy, because the very act of invading England almost always brings the US into the war. Even if you manage to take the home islands, the US will often either kick you back out or make it prohibitively expensive to defend them. Although for the most part I agree that it should be harder than it is to conquer the UK.

I don't know... last time I played as Germany, the UK folded almost instantaneously, as fast as my tanks could move so... maybe I was lucky. But you make a good point still. The only thing is, that when you think about it, playing as any major power is a bit too easy, by major power I mean, USSR, USA, Germany. The problem is the inherently stupid AI, but maybe that wwill be ironed out in HOI 2, since Copper Niccus is on the team, maybe he will tell us...

Pro_Consul said:
Now there is an interesting thought to toy with with....AI only events for the USSR which simulate such things as their terrible initial disorganization or their initial strategy of sacrificing huge, poorly armed formations just to slow the Germans, because they had them to throw away. That one alone could easily be represented with a large manpower hit and a moderate dissent hit.

Well a dissent hit is already simulated (Invasion sparks nationalist dissent event, or something along those lines), but a bit more could be done. The thing is that when one plays as Germany they crush the SU becuase they plan ahead and research the Winter War techs, as well as use strategies that the AI cannot even comprehend, like encirclement. When one plays as the USSR, the player avoids doing stupid strategic thingsm like letting the Germans advance and so he (or she ;) ) wins the war in a year or two.

li2co3 said:
Wotcher,

As far as more flavour and hypothetical events go, what about some of the following.

During 1944 a number of decisions were made as to the reaction of the State to returned soldiers and POWs. These decisions should trigger after the "crisis" decisions about "not one step back" and can only trigger during a Patriotic War. An ahistorical response should only be allowed if in 1942 and 1943 the more objectionable political orders were not made (not one step back &tc.) Historical response gives minor dissent, reduces man-power significantly. But the important thing about POW treatment, is that it reflects a change in Stalin's attitudes, from the late 30s purge mentality back to a late 20s crisis of capitalism adventurism.

I am almost sure that <<Not a step back>> was started in 1941 and that the whole POW thing was a 1942 issue, I could be wrong, but I do not think so. However, I generally agree that such possiblities should be there, with choices and actual consequences for such choices. Even though this would require a complex event chain.

li2co3 said:
A more humane response changes JS (Stalinist) to JS (Leninist) as state leader, corresponding cabinet changes. More than minor dissent, man-power increases.

Should a more humane response be taken, /and/ the Comintern still exist, trigger a choice about internationalism. "War brings crisis to capitalism, exploit the crisis?"
No choice (default ahistorical) causes UN event chain to trigger
Yes choice (abberant ahistorical) triggers events in (allied nations) France, Italy, Greece causing massive dissent. Triggers should include no Vichy for France, no Italian Social Republic for Italy. Greece should be whole. Also need civil war events for France, Italy and Greece on the level of the Spanish Civil War.

REALLY GREAT IDEAS!!!!! Though I should warn that this is a pretty big project and that it would require the creation of alot of tags also, otherwise this is all quite do-able.

Also I cannot say about Vichy France, in all my games they were notoriously difficult to get rid of, mainly because the allies do a terrible job killing Vichy off. Greece also tends to get annexed and stops existing after 1941, so an event would be required to bring Greece back in, also didn't they have some sort of Comunist Revolt (or revolution) at some point? Maybe we could use that. Also Germany would become an independent Communist Country, so would Poland, and Italy (since Italy almost always gets annexed by the Americans, the British are not too quick on the uptake in the game) would have to be made into a country again, so would Norway, maybe even Finland.

li2co3 said:
So there's a bit of ahistorical flavour. Suits the old fashioned Comintern stuff. Requires a "Leninist" Stalin, because Stalin's adventurism was imperialist, not revolutionary, historically. Also requires success by the allies in Western Europe.

This outcome reflects Stalin deciding not to divide Europe, but to pursue communist revolution. A good start point for a continuation war in 194x.

Well there is an event that creates a <<ComIntern>> versus Allies conflict, but it is too Stalinist in nature. I like your idea better than what the game has (though its also alright), because that would be a more fun Lenninist, Left-Wing Radical approach.

li2co3 said:
Obviously I'm making a few assumptions.
1) The Not One Step Back style choices are actually choices
2) Dissolution of the Comintern event chain (really important)
a) This event chain should be like the unholy alliance
b) It should result in the folding of the USSR into the Allies
c) Allies move towards Communism, USSR moves towards democracy
d) Allows for the division of Europe event chain, and events creating the puppet states (Italy, France, Greece, Eastern Europe &tc) naturally
e) Biases things towards Allied-Comintern peace post-WWII in a serious way - no competing alliance.
3) People would want to see more spanish style chaos in Europe post-war.

I definetly fit in to this assumption. There should be a chain of events that go from dissolution of the ComIntern to making USSR join the Allies, but I do not see how that would constitute a move towrads Communism on the part of US, UK, France. etc.

li2co3 said:
thoughts?

Well those were mine. I would also like to add:
1. Changing of the SOV National Anthem from L'Internationale to THE SOVIET NATIONAL ANTHEM, this should move the SU more towards Democracy/Fascism, but lower dissent, the opposite choice should increase dissent a point or two and move the USSR closer to Communism (Just in Case), but allow the <<Lenninist>> Stalin events to trigger, or something.

2. The above could, perhaps trigger a <<Trotsky Returns to the USSR>> event that would move the US and Mexico towards Communism (the same way that his assasination would move them away from Communism) and perhaps trigger a revolution in th US...

3. A revolution in the US, a civil war in the US with Communists and Capitalists (maybe even Fascists...). Partially because this would be interesting, and partially because conquering the US as the USSR is impossible (Logistics Penalty), but sending Expeditionary Forces is very feasable, if the SU chooses to sponsor this revolution, a Communist America would be created in North Eastern Provinces (where the working class concentration is highest), while western provinces would stay Capitalist (with the acception of Chicago, whic would definetly go Communist).

Those would be my thoughts.
 

unmerged(12895)

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Asudulayev had some great ideas,

1) Change of National Anthem is a great event. Truely this sits in the choice "Stalin-Imperialism" or "Lenin-Internationalism"
2) USSR to allies does bring the allied governments closer to Communism
a) Historically note the post-war acceptance of PCI and PCF
b) Labour to Power (UK), Labor to Power (Australia) etc.
c) The governments of the Allies did use more techniques of nationalisation in the 41-46 period
d) The Allied governments also became more amenable to the USSR in 41-46 (recognising its right to exist, according its ambassadors status, filming pro-USSR propaganda films).

2) Trotsky returns to the USSR
a) Requires Trotsky not be dead
b) Requires Stalin be Leninist
c) Default "No: Stalin is an opportunist, remember the 20s" Abberant "The best place to fight for a political revolution in the USSR is inside the political elite of the USSR"
d) Abberant triggers a future "Trotsky to power" event
e) Trotsky to power /necessarily/ triggers the revolution in Western Europe events.

3) Revolution in Western Europe is really France, Italy and Greece: the countries where a large communist resistance movement threatened to take power. These movements should really be Left-wing radical because their CPs were radicalised by partisan fighting, and were willing to cooperate with other revolutionaries to some extent.

4) Revolution in the USA
a) Requires 1944-1945 wildcat strikes in the US to be won by workers. These events need to be created. (historical)
b) Requires the (new event) 1945-46 Coal and Rail Strikes to be won by workers (ahistorical)
c) Requires the (new event) AFL-CIO to be radicalised following from the Coal and Rail strikes (ahistorical)
d) Requires the (new event) Mutiny in Europe 1945 events to be won by soldiers. Option a (historical) return rapidly in due course. Option b (ahistorical) return immediately. Option c (ahistorical abberant) keep 'em there. Option c triggers a worse mutiny.
d) Triggers in late 1946 "As coal supplies dwindled in the Industrial North East, the AFL-CIO radicalised workers, and instituted self-management. Returned soldiers, leaders of successful mutiny, united with the workers. A socialist revolution had begun in the North East." This revolution should be lead by a left-wing radical government, primarily composed of AFL-CIO headkickers (including a few CIO communists from UMW, Auto etc.)
e) Event chain d triggers a North West revolution in Washington, Oregon, Nor Cal. "The militant history of the Seattle workers council is revived."
f) Appropriate aid and intervention for the Soviets.

Anyone interested? I can supply "reasonable" ahistorical events like the above, but you guys will have to code them.

Additionally you were right. Greece was a revolution. France and Italy were almost, but the USSR called them off. Many French and Italian partisans felt "Fascism: gone. Now onto the next project: Capitalism."

Thoughts? Should we get in a coder from another stream of Core? The USA guys might want to work closely on some of these ideas.
 

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The initial setback is the monumental nature of this project, do not get me wrong, I want to see it and will do anything I can to see it lift off, but school has started so my time online and for other leisure activities is quite limited. I have some comprehension of coding, but I have never even come close to scripting an event, all I know how to do is change save-files and read the event triggers, but everyone knows how to do that.

I can also provide consultation (for historical matters that I can look up if I do not already know them) and for ideas for ahistorical events, I have an active imagination.

We may need to find alot of coders for this because that is alot of coding, that should probably get done before HOI 2 comes out. Since several of the CORE programmers are now Betas, this may become difficult.

The thing that we need to decide know however is not which and how many events there will be, but how they will be connected? What I mean is that we all have lots of great ideas for branching paths, BUT how will they all be counted. There are only too choices, Stalinist or Lenninist (not much possiblity for a LW Radical Gov. 20 or 30 years after the revolution), but there are so many choices.
1. Does the decision to spare Trotsky make Stalin a real communist or simply someone who does not want to sever diplomatic relations with any true Communist Organizations. Same for L'Internationale decision.
2.We cant't tally points for Stalin with Lenninist points and Stalinist points and than see where we get. We can only change the government once in a single event so which event will it be, the decision to not imprison all returning POWs, the <<Not a step back>>, maybe the Totsky decision, or the a Republican Spanish victory inthe civil war because of Soviet intervention, or maybe simply non-compliance with Hitler?

I do not know the answer to the above question, I will think about it, but I hope that this will be a group effort. Perhaps the above events will trigger Trotsky to come back to the USSR at the outbreak of the war (1941), than an election is held and he gets the position of Kalinin (I am not sure what it was, something long and complicated that looks good on paper) and then he and Stalin collaborate (this is going COMPLETLY ahistorically, but what the heck!).

Just some ideas to throw on the table.

li2co3 said:
2) USSR to allies does bring the allied governments closer to Communism
a) Historically note the post-war acceptance of PCI and PCF
b) Labour to Power (UK), Labor to Power (Australia) etc.
c) The governments of the Allies did use more techniques of nationalisation in the 41-46 period
d) The Allied governments also became more amenable to the USSR in 41-46 (recognising its right to exist, according its ambassadors status, filming pro-USSR propaganda films).

Thanks, I did not really know that so now I learned something new, but was the Socialisation (not sure whether that is aword) of UK, USA, and Australia really that closely ties with the USSR joining the <<ALLIES>>, I mean its not like they could learn anything good and labour related from Stalin (unless GULags are good), just saying that the above things could have happened on their own.
 

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Well nationalisation, and "socialisation", basically centralised war economies, were not possible before the labour and communist movements supported bourgeois government. The Stalin:Churchill accommodation allowed the Western capitalist powers the full support of the official union and communist parties. This was quite important. Angry and upset workers and soldiers gravitated to the communist parties, and the communist parties turned these dissidents into supporters of the existing government*.

* With exceptions, Origlass in Balmain, Sydney for example.
 

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I don't really think that the Stalin-Trotsky issue need necessarily involve changing the government type of the Soviet Union. Rather I see this as a pivotal choice for whether the SU will take the path of total repression (Stalinist) or a more representative Party hierarchy (Trotsky), both of which are still Communist governments. I would favor using the Trotsky assassination event as a branching in the event chain. Down the Stalinist road we could leave the existing event chain in place, since it is historically brutal, but stiffen the dissent results and increase the manpower. The path where you spare Trotsky (and perhaps allow him to return from exile - that was a cool suggestion! :cool: ) could have a different event chain based on the idea that the Soviet Union pursued its originally intended course, with the people's representatives in the Party actually having political power. This could result in a slight shift toward democracy, reduced manpower and dissent, and increased research rate (due to the more free flow of information and education). It could also open the door for more liberalizing events, such as disbanding the NKVD, removing the farm collective restrictions and enfranchising the Polish refugees, just to throw out the first few that come to mind.
 

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li2co3 said:
Well nationalisation, and "socialisation", basically centralised war economies, were not possible before the labour and communist movements supported bourgeois government. The Stalin:Churchill accommodation allowed the Western capitalist powers the full support of the official union and communist parties. This was quite important. Angry and upset workers and soldiers gravitated to the communist parties, and the communist parties turned these dissidents into supporters of the existing government*.

* With exceptions, Origlass in Balmain, Sydney for example.

Fascinating, you seem to know your topic well, but the above shows that such movement (with the noted exeception,*) were not communist or socialist in nature, but ruses used by the respective governments to pacify dissidents, not to try and collaborate with them...

Pro_Consul said:
don't really think that the Stalin-Trotsky issue need necessarily involve changing the government type of the Soviet Union. Rather I see this as a pivotal choice for whether the SU will take the path of total repression (Stalinist) or a more representative Party hierarchy (Trotsky), both of which are still Communist governments.

Technically, most communists agree that Stalinism ia about as socialist as the National Socialist German Workers Party. I think that the chance to go from a Stalinist to a Lenninist government is central to any talk of an Ahistorical Soviet Union, otherwise its the same old cr**.

Manpower is also not a problem, I have played as the SU and ManPower is not at all a problem, there is too much if anything, at 1947 I had 4000+ Man Power and I had been building stuff non-stop. Dissent should be an issue though, Stalin's repressions made the populace quite uneasy, as a result they wroked more poorly (lower IC) and fought with much less passion (combat negative modfier), so this would be covered with dissent.

As for disbanding the NKVD, that would (could) never happen. Partially because a total disbanding of the NKVD would result in people wanting a similar event for Germany, with a disbanding of the Gestapo, preceeded by Hitler becoming a meat-eating Communist or Democrat. And partially because the NKVD was not the equivalent of the Gestapo or even the FBI. The NKVD was an organization that was the arm of the ChKa (pronounced Che-Ka). It was the job of the ChKa to run everyday affairs from schooling*, hospitals, and putting out domestic fires, to less nice things like getting rid of <<Enemies of the People>>.

*Actually they did alot in the early 20's to end the terrible orphan problem that resulted during the civil war, they created all kinds of housing and orphanages in country where there were verually none and did not do the Stalinist thing, (AKA sent them to the GULags). Guderian confirms the existence of many Children's Homes in Soviet lands, in his memoires.

As for the SOV Poles and so on, more on that below...

Collectivization vs. NEP system would technically be resolved when Trotsky returns and so I doubt to what extent such an event needs to exist alone, this could be added to the text of then Trotsky Returns event below...

* * *

Anyway I would like to Recap our little progress in creating new events:

1. L'Internationale vs. Soviet National Anthem: choice (A) change the National Anthem to the Soviet National Anthem, lowering dissent by 1-3 points (representing the raising of Battle field Morale) or (B) to leave L'Internationale in place, leaving dissent where it is, but giving the USSR some more Diplomatic Influence (DI), since other communst organizations would see it as a return to Marxist-Lenninist Communism. It would trigger randomly in 1943.

2. Dissolving the Communist International (ComIntern, though I prefer the longer version, makes me think of Barricades and Flags, instead of Stalin's portrait), choice (A), dissolve it, huge strike against DI (as already in the game), but would lower the War Entry for Allies (France, USA, UK, etc.) allowing the USSR to avoid a War with Allies (the boring AI default choice) or (B) keep the Communist International, raising DI, but raising the War Entry of the Allies, allowing for another massive conflict. Also 1943, random event.

3. The famous Alexander Nevsky film (not my idea, though I forget who posted it). Triggers: USSR at war with Germany or German Invasion of Poland (start of WWII), but only if the USSR went with No Deals with enemies of the workers in the M-R pact event. No choices in event, the effect is the lowering of dissent.

4. Assasination of Trotsky event: Choices as they are except having the choice penalties more interesting, (A) assasinate, lower dissent by 3%, (B) do not assasinate raise dissent by 2%. This is to make the decision a bit more critical, instead of its current superficiality. Choice (B) will also trigger another event.

5. Hypothetical event, correspondence with Trotsky: triggered a week (for example, maybe amonth) after the previous event (Assasination of Trotsky) with choice (B) (no assasination) selected. Choice (A) do not correspond (no penalty, but it ends the Trotsky-Lenninist Gov. chain of events) or (B) do correspond, here a correspondence is created between the Soviet Gov and Trotsky, that would represent the rehabilitation of Trotsky, by the SOV propoganda machine, as a SOV hero. If choice (B) than some materials (resources and supplies) are sent to Mexico, this would constitute a loss of resources to the USSR and a gain in Mexico, but also would move Mexico closer to Communism (because Trosky was in Mexico and his assination or possible repatriation would have an effect on the Mecans' view on communism).

6. Hypothetical event, Trotsky returns!: triggered by a (B) choice in the previous event (correspondence) and the outbreak of the IIWW. The WWII thing is there because while Trotsky would have been be hesitant about returning, the outbreak of WWII would possibly spark his longing to join the struggle against Faschism. Choice (A) do not allow him to return, no penalties, stops Trotsky the event chain, or choice (B) allow him to return, changes the GOV to Lenninist, makes Trosky the Head of GOV, takes out Beria and puts in someone else (like Uritsky), gives the USSR some DI (5 or so), also triggers a new Nationalist dissent event...

7. Nationalist Dissent: if Trotsky returns and the SOV gov. becomes more communist, the outbreak of the war with Germany makes more Ukranian and Belorussian Nationalists more pissed so the National Dissent penalty should become +7% as opposed to +5%.

*fast forward to end of war*

8. Redivision of Europe part 1: Trigger: Germany and Italy no longer exist (must be annexed) or be an ally of Britain (Italy must not be in the axis), USSR must hold Berlin. Choices (A) keep all territory taken from Germany (including that of all countries annexed by Germany), also triggers event (see #9 below), also lower DI by 5. (B) create puppet states out of all countries liberated, ie, Germany, Poland, create CzechSlovakia out of German provinces and Slovakia, puppets for Romania and Bulgaria (if they were annexed), Greece (if the USSR gets there before the allies), and Yugoslavia to be created out of Serbia, Croatia, and German/Italian provinces (if USSR gets there first), oh and Albania. Rasie allied war entry, but not as much as choice (A). (C) Same as (B), but instead of puppets, free Governments, that are allied to the USSR, alot of DI, about 10, as this would constitute true liberation in the eyes of the world, raise allied War Entry of Allied countries, as much as in (B). (D) create allied Govs in all liberated territories, some DI, about 10, bring the USSR closer to Democracy, lowers Allied War Entry (dummy choice in case Player does not want a war with allies).
Note on above: perhaps each puppet, comintern gov, or allied state, should have have a seperate event, it would be easier to check for existence of said countries, ie, seperate event for Poland, Germany, CzeckSlovakia, etc.

9. Division of Europe p. 2: triggered by choice (A) by USSR in Division of Europe p. 1. Choice (A) accomodate the allies, split Germany, make Yugoslavia Independent, but communist (with Tito), give all French provinces back to allies and give Belgium and Netherlands back to allies, return Italian provinces to Italy, lower allied war entry drastically and avoid war (B) enfroce Stalin's New World Order in all areas and bring allies to war (already in Core .84, done by Copper Niccus, Red Strom event, etc,), but with repressionist Stalin theorires.

10. Start of World Revolution (li2co3's main idea): Triggered by choice (B) or (C) in Redivision of Europe part 1 event (above; #8). Choice (A) No revolution, lowers war entry for allies, ends world revolution event chain, forces events in Greece, France and Italy where the respective countries to lose manpower and supplies to quell revolts. Or choice (B) to fund the revolutions, major loss of Oil and Supplies and Man Power, three new countries are created Communist France, Italy, and Greece, in provinces of those rspective countries that are closest to the USSR, ie, Eastern France, Northern Italy, Northern Greece (tags will need to be created), these new countries will be supported by the Supplies, Oil, and Man Power sent by the USSR, the USSR player will also need to send expeditionary forces if he (or she ;) ) wants to see the revolutions succeed.

11. World Revolution Part 2: Trigger Italy, or France, or Greece bo longer exist and choice (B) must have been chosen in the above event (# 10). No choices. effect: basically after one of the revolutions succedes and annexes the other basic mother country (Greece, Italy, France), no matter which one first, as soon as this happens all the revolutionary countries join the ComIntern and since they are at war with allied countries, a war between the ComIntern and the Allies happens.

12. World Revolution Part 3: Triggered by World Revolution Part 2 and the USSR holding London: No choices, England becomes a communist country (Left-Wing Radical), All colonies (that have Tags, like India) become independent, but communist. This should also have some effect on Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, but I am not sure whether they should automatically become communist or whether they should leave the allies and move towards communism by two thirds the length of the triangle side. I advocate the latter.

13. World Revolution Part 4: Triggered by World Revolution Part 3 event: Revolution, NOW IN AMERICA! (basically the things that li2co3 proposed are all good) Choice (A) fund the revolutionaries (send men, oil, and supplies) to America, alot of units are created in American North East and other key areas that will have to hold off until the USSR can get Exp. forces there. Choice (B), same as choice (A), but without sending supplies, oil, and manpower, this will not stop the revolution, or the fact that the Communist America will be part of the Comintern, this may be chosen if the Player does not want to lose anymore Oil and Supplies, Man Power is not a problem. No choice that would stop the revolution, that would not make sense at this stage of the event chain.

14. Out of order because I forgot to add it: Not a step back: Trigger: War with Germany. Choice (A) Directive No. 3, any deserters retreating without orders would be shot and all returning POWs or men coming out of encirclement are TRAITORS, raise dissent by 1% , but also lower manpower 200-300 and lower supplies by 500-1000. Or choice (B) <<The International still loves you (the Soldier)>>, dissent goes up by 3%, but manpower and supplies stay as they are.

*That's about all I have on that particular topic*, but here are some more general thoughts:

15. The purge events are a bit ridiculous, the leaders that are to disappear are not that good and can be replaced with others, even Tuhachevsky (though there is a controversy whether or not he was so great or a Krushovian Propoganda Idol), is not as bad a loss as 10% dissent, perhaps 5% dissent would be fairer since it is not such a monumental decision, game play-wise.

16. After war with Germany ends there should be some event that allows the USSR to declare war on Japan, as it did, otherwise the map looks wierd.

***Closing Thoughts***

All choice (A)s are meant to be AI-Default choices that would send the AI towards the historical path.

Any thoughts? Disputes? Comments? Additions? Any CORE people want to tell us their particular thoughts?
 
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Soviet Cultural Events

I've got three scripted so far, but I need to submit to the Wiki:

Nevsky: Triggers a few months after Russo-German War starts. Historically in release at the time of MR, it was yanked and re-released after the war started. Given the subject matter, it would go into re-release regardless of MR. Effect is dissent reduction.

Prokofiev Returns: Triggers in Spring of 1936. Sergei Prokofiev abandons Hollywood to return to the Soviet Union. A feather in the cap for the Soviets. Effect, gets one diplomatic influence point.

Shostokovich 7th Symphony: Triggers about 9 months after Russo-German war. Dedicated to the defense of Leningrad, lowers dissent.
 

Pro_Consul

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Engineer said:
Prokofiev Returns: Triggers in Spring of 1936. Sergei Prokofiev abandons Hollywood to return to the Soviet Union. A feather in the cap for the Soviets. Effect, gets one diplomatic influence point.

Perhaps this event could also lower dissent by a point or two. I find it unlikely the Soviets would fail to capitalize on the propaganda value of such an occurrence.
 

unmerged(12895)

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Re Pro_Consul's #650,

Trotsky's return to power would require a Leninist head of government (that's basically what you're talking about). Still in the Communist part of the triangle, but a different /kind/ of communist. When the historicaly USSR fused with the Allies in 1941, their diplomatic position changed (openness to democracy), even though their internal situation didn't. HOI 1's triangle represents the international diplomacy. The Head of State alignments represent the internal position.

Removing the "bad" parts of the USSR isn't possible under Trotsky (see Trotsky in power in the revolution and 1920s). You'd need a "left-wing radical" government, but by 1936 that's impossible.

The non-Stalinist tree branch should be available, but even then, Mexico (Trotsky) should usually decide against returning.
 

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Another idea, the Soviet looting of industry from Manchuria / North China?
Stalin-Imperialist line
Trigger: Soviets in Manchuria / North China, Japan out (however we evaluate that)
a) loot away, transfers industry from Manchuria / North China into Soviet Far East. Ownership of provinces transferred to ROC. CCP and ROC move away from communism.
b) resources must be preserved for CCP / ROC. Dissent +5. CCP / ROC moved towards communism. Ownership of provinces transferred to ROC.

Leninist line
Trigger: Soviets in Manchuria / North China, Japan out.
a) For a free, democratic, Soviet China etc. Ownership of provinces to CCP. Manpower hit (revolutionaries align with CCP). Dissent. CCP joins to Comintern alliance. ROC moves massively towards fascism.
b) Resources must be preserved for CCP. Ownership to CCP. More dissent. CCP moves towards communism in the triangle massively. ROC moves significantly towards fascism and democracy.
c) Resources must be preserved for ROC. Ownership to ROC. Large dissent. ROC moves towards communism significantly. CCP moves away from communism significantly.
d) Loot it. as for stalinist option a).

Someone who knows Post-imperialism and Indian history might want to speculate on radical leftist movements during the independence period?
 

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li2co3 said:
The non-Stalinist tree branch should be available, but even then, Mexico (Trotsky) should usually decide against returning.

I cannot agree. It is true that if all went smoothly (no war) than obviously Trotsky (being a human being with more than half an brain) would not return, but we are talking about a war. If the Soviet Union decided to (aside from going completly ahistorical and doing something that almost certainly would not have happened) try and contact Trotsky and even repatriate him, than he would at least be more open to the Soviet Union.

During the IIWW, Alexander Karensky, head of the Russian Provisional Governement of 1917, collected funds, while living in the US, to send to the USSR, now we know how much Karensky did not like Stalin and the USSR in general, but he still helped, I think that something like that would have happened with Trotsky and assuming that Stalin would be sincere in his idea of recreating a truer Communist USSR (realisticly impossible, but interesting for our purposes), than it is possible that Trotsky would have returned at the OUTBREAK OF TH E WAR, because wars have a very strange effect on people.

li2co3 said:
Another idea, the Soviet looting of industry from Manchuria / North China?

I think that your two events could be combined into one big event, with four choices:
A) Free soviet China*
B) Resources and provinces to CCP*
C) Resources and Provinces to ROC*
D) Have fun Looting!!!*

*ideas and respective effects by li2co3
Choices A + B, Lenninist, Choices C + D Stalinist.

Pro_Consul said:
Perhaps this event could also lower dissent by a point or two. I find it unlikely the Soviets would fail to capitalize on the propaganda value of such an occurrence.

I agree, there would most likely be some Internal Rejoicing after someone abandons Hollywood, too live in a Moscow Apartment (though perhaps an apartment with several rooms).
 
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Prokofiev Returns

Dissent Reduction: Nope. The analogs for this event are Marlene Dietrich leaves Germany (which has null effect) or the various "visitor" effects in the USA that principally effect political alignment. Compared to the other two events (Nevsky and Shostakovitch) millions of Soviet subjects experienced the art and presumably came out of the theater pumped up to resist the Germans. Adding a former emigre to the nomenklatura during peacetime probably doesn't, to me, motivate the marginally attached people in the Soviet Union "throw their shoulders to the wheel". If his masterwork was an immediate consequence of his return, it might be different, but Prokofiev's artistic output in 1936 wasn't particularly distinguished. ;)

P.S. Prokofiev did get a multi-room apartment.
 
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Prokofiev Returns

Dissent Reduction: Nope. The analogs for this event are Marlene Dietrich leaves Germany (which has null effect) or the various "visitor" effects in the USA that principally effect political alignment. Compared to the other two events (Nevsky and Shostakovitch) millions of Soviet subjects experienced the art and presumably came out of the theater pumped up to resist the Germans. Adding a former emigre to the nomenklatura during peacetime doesn't, to me, motivate the marginally attached people in the Soviet Union "throw their shoulders to the wheel". If his masterwork was an immediate consequence of his return, it might be different, but Prokofiev's artistic output in 1936 wasn't particularly distinguished. ;)

P.S. Prokofiev did get a multi-room apartment.
 

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Playing as the SU

I got some problem with the SU in CORE. The event wich causes Reichskommissariat Ukraine to be ceded back to SU is flawed in my game. The event states that all provinces that I've ceded to Germany is now going back to me (SU). That doesn't happen. I still don't own the provinces and the provinces wich didn't contain any red army units reverted back to german controlled provinces. :confused:

How can I change this? Should I edit the event or the savegame what's best? I'm not that good in modding...
 

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Not qiute sure were to post this. Anyway, I´m playing as Japan and here is the situation: The victorious Jap army has anhiliated the USSR fareastern forces and puppeted Mongolia, caputered almost everything east of Irkutsk and with a diversionary attack captured Baku and Grozny, meanwhile the axis has captured Moskva and Leningrad and much of western USSR. The US has not yet entered the war. So now I´m wondering if it wouldn´t be possible to write an event for a seperate peace with Japan were if Japan controls Vladivostok and Irkutsk and the USSR is at war with the axis then the USSR cedes Siberia to Japan.