C.O.R.E. HOI - Naval Mod

[MateDow]

Can river monitors be abstracted in HoI? I was thinking about this after looking through some Soviet river monitors, some very heavily armed ships where used in this role and I was wondering of river defence can be modified with monitor techs

They might be able to be abstracted as a river crossing bonus. I don't know if they could be abstracted as a anti-river crossing bonus, but I don't think that there is a modifier for that. It could be an interesting idea. I know that Poland had a few river monitors that participated in the defence of Warsaw and I know the Soviets used some on the Volga around Stalingrad. But I don't know how much of an impact that they had. It could be an interesting idea to bring up on the land technology thread, they would know more about the effect that it would have on game balance. MDow

 

[MateDow]

Do you still want some data for the passenge liners? Because you already said below that you will add a second transport. Or is this for a thirt one?

This would be for an additional group. It would be similar to 'fleets' that the Germans, French and British have with their passenger liners. It would be a fleet called "America-Holland Cruise Lines" (or whatever company it really was) and would contain the Dutch passenger liners.

In my book the Merel had 7.5cm gun and the Formalhout 2x 3.7cm guns and did the Aldebaran(not in your list) had no gun. I also have the Albatros II 807 t, Bellatrix 773 t, Canopus 773 t, Deneb 773 t, Eridanus 996 t & Gemma 845 t.
I agree on the slow speed and the minimal attack value.

One Flotilla would be nice 2 would be overdoing it seeing their speed and attack value.

I think that a single flotilla would be appropriate. These ships were of greatly differing ability and none of them was heavily armed. From what I can find they weren't very well maintained and I can't tell how many of them were actually able to put to sea. It looks like many of them were scuttled or sank in port. This is in stark contrast to the DEI squadron where Helfrich was throwing anything with guns at the Japanese. It makes me question their combat value.

Smaldeel is correct.

Good. Any suggestions for Dutch translations of...

Submarine Flotilla

Destroyer Flotilla

Dutch East Indies Squadron

Moter Torpedo Boat Squadron

These would help me give the unit names a more authintic feel.

As always nice doing business with you guys.

Thank you. It is likewise, nice doing business with you. MDow

 

[Ghost_dk]

When tempted to enroll merchant fleets into the transport fleet, please keep in mind that some nations also have convoy transports which account for much of these.

Ghost_dk

 

[Crazyhorse]

Matedow:

Submarine Flotilla: Onderzeeboot Flottielje

Destroyer Flotilla: Torpedobootjager Flottielje

Dutch East Indies Squadron: Gouvernements Marine?( or do you want the dutch translation of Dutch East Indies Sqadron)

Moter Torpedo Boat Squadron : Torpedomotorboot Flottielje

 

[Semi-Lobster]

They might be able to be abstracted as a river crossing bonus. I don't know if they could be abstracted as a anti-river crossing bonus, but I don't think that there is a modifier for that. It could be an interesting idea. I know that Poland had a few river monitors that participated in the defence of Warsaw and I know the Soviets used some on the Volga around Stalingrad. But I don't know how much of an impact that they had. It could be an interesting idea to bring up on the land technology thread, they would know more about the effect that it would have on game balance. MDow

Many East European nations had river monitors, some where so big and well armed I considered putting them in the naval OOB! :rofl:

I propsed defence because most contries would sail their river monitor all the way to another country to coordinate an attack, it was usually the defenders who used them for fire support. I shall post this on the land tech thread. If this does get in it SHOULD be in the naval tech though.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Minor difficulty...

If you make an event that builds 6 cruisers (random number) over the course of 1940 they would be treaty light cruisers assuming that there have been no upgrades in model availability. The other difficulty is that Auxilliary Cruisers are a transport model so the ships that you just had built would be medium steamers or freighters. That is the problem with building naval warships by event. If you read the Z-Plan and battleship construction events it always refers to the most advanced model. That is because of this limitation. Trust me, if I ever get the ability to specify model, I have a lot of events for minor and semi-major naval powers to represent imports of foreign ships. They are great events, but don't work as designed Keep these events in mind in case we ever get this ability. MDow

You mean they STILL haven't put in that feature yet!

Maybe you can bug the apradox guys aout this, it's a real headache not being able to do this!

 

[Crazyhorse]

This would be for an additional group. It would be similar to 'fleets' that the Germans, French and British have with their passenger liners. It would be a fleet called "America-Holland Cruise Lines" (or whatever company it really was) and would contain the Dutch passenger liners.

The Holland Amerika Lijn

http://www.unofficial.net/hal/page2.html
http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/hollandam.html

Rotterdam IV - registered tonnage was 24,170 and displacement of 37,190 tons - Speed 16.5 knots
Maasdam III - 8,812 gross tons
Edam IV - 8,871 gross tons
Binnendyk - 6,873 gross tons
DintylDyk I - 9,399 gross tons
Volendam I - registered tonnage was 15430 and displacement of 25620 tons
Beemsterdyk- 6,869 gross tons
Bloomersdyk II - 6,855 gross tons
Veendam - 14450 tons
Statendam III - 30,000 registered tons, 40,000 tons displacement
Delftdyk (Dongedyk) - 10,220 gross tons
Damsterdyk (Dalerdyk) - 10,155 gross tons
Nieuw Amsterdam II - Built 1938 36,982 tons (gross registered tonnage)
NOORDAM II - Built 1938 10,726 gross tons
Zaandam II - Built 1938 10,909 gross tons
Pennland - Built 1939 16,381 gross tons

There were many more ships sailing for the Holland Amerika Lijn only at the link posted above are not all the ships foreseen of information.

Rotterdamsche Lloyd: I'm not going to copy paste again!

So just have a look here:

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/lines/rotterdamL.htm

Here you can see their ships and tonnage at once.

I'm absolutly no expert in this kind of ships and companies so all my info is from these 2 sites!

But it would seem that perhaps 2 extra transports are in order?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Wow! Great site Crazyhorse! A lot better then the sources I'm using now for my liner research!

 

[Crazyhorse]

Wow! Great site Crazyhorse! A lot better then the sources I'm using now for my liner research!

I just found it and it's quite nice.

There were many more dutch liner companies I saw I think the 2 I mentoned are the biggest.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

So can anybody find anything on the Ecudorian Presidente Alfaro (All I know she was 1,030 t and had a top speed of 16 knots) and the Argentinian Rosario and Paraná gunboats? Should I post this in the Spanish forum?

 

[Dibo]

So can anybody find anything on the Ecudorian Presidente Alfaro (All I know she was 1,030 t and had a top speed of 16 knots) and the Argentinian Rosario and Paraná gunboats? Should I post this in the Spanish forum?

Greetings from the TGW mod

Parana in 1918

River Gunboats «Rosario» (27.7.08 —scrap 1959), «Parana» (28.4.08- scrap 1958). Built by "Armstrong".
700/1050 t., 76,4x9,8x4,3 м., 14,5 knots., Armour: sides 102 мм, deck up to 37 мм. Complement: 145 Armament: 2 — 152mm howitzers, 6 — 76 мм.

"Presidente Alfaro"
My sources indicate this to be a British class "Hunt" escort destroyer, transferred to Ecuador in 1955. Original British name - Quantock L.58
Maybe - an earlier ship with this name? However well into the twentieth century, the Ecuadorian navy's only seagoing unit wasthe 750-ton torpedo gunboat, Liberator Bolívar. Ecuador acquired a number of armed yachts and miscellaneous craft from the United States in return for having granted the latter base rights in the Galápagos Islands and at Salinas during World War II

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Greetings from the TGW mod

River Gunboats «Rosario» (27.7.08 —scrap 1959), «Parana» (28.4.08- scrap 1958). Built by "Armstrong".
700/1050 t., 76,4x9,8x4,3 м., 14,5 knots., Armour: sides 102 мм, deck up to 37 мм. Complement: 145 Armament: 2 — 152mm howitzers, 6 — 76 мм.

"Presidente Alfaro"
My sources indicate this to be a British class "Hunt" escort destroyer, transferred to Ecuador in 1955. Original British name - Quantock L.58
Maybe - an earlier ship with this name? However well into the twentieth century, the navy's only seagoing unit wasthe 750-ton torpedo gunboat, Liberator Bolívar. Ecuador acquired a number of armed yachts and miscellaneous craft from the United States in return for having granted the latter base rights in the Galápagos Islands and at Salinas during World War II.

From your description I would guess they would could be classifyied as protected cruisers. Here's the picture I have of her:

All I know about this Presidente Alfaro is that she was launched in 1917 and commissioned to Ecuador in 1935, so I assume she was sold to Ecuador.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Regarding the Presidente Alfaro. I can find some information on 2 ships with that name one a former US destroyer and 1x a former uk destroyer. Both are from well past WWII.

And some info on a presidente Alfaro in 1937, only no details or history yet.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Well it's ok, if you can't find any info I guess she won't be in the game! It seems Argentina will now two protected cruisers in her OOB!

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Can Anybody find any info on the Venezuelan General Soublette and General Urdanetta gunboats?Al I know about then was that they where scrapped in 1950

 

[Der Bismarck]

Can Anybody find any info on the Venezuelan General Soublette and General Urdanetta gunboats?Al I know about then was that they where scrapped in 1950

try this site:

http://www.spanamwar.com/span3rdclassgunboats.htm

 

[Semi-Lobster]

These are all turn-of-the century Spanish gunboats from the Spanish American war, why would it have a Venezuelan gunboat?

Also MateDow, did you get my e-mail?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

MateDow, I was wondering if the Hashidate class should be changed from a 500t destroyer model to... well anything else. The fact they wheren't event close to 500t makes it sort of weird!

Also does anybody know the stats for the Chasan/Khasan class Soviet monitor? These aren't the usually small river monitors, here's a picture:

 

[MateDow]

So can anybody find anything on the Ecudorian Presidente Alfaro (All I know she was 1,030 t and had a top speed of 16 knots) and the Argentinian Rosario and Paraná gunboats? Should I post this in the Spanish forum?

I can find no data on an Ecuadoran ship named Presidente Alfaro for the time period of 1906 to 1946. The only ships in the Ecuadoran navy that I can find are the gunboats Libertudor Bolivar (ex-Almirante Simpson) which was scrapped in 1932. She was an ex-Chilean gunboat of 800 tons. The other gunboat was the Cotopaxi which was built in 1884 and discarded in 1932. I can probably do some more research on the two of them, but they don't appear to be the ones that you are looking for.

This is what I found on the Rosario-class river gunboats. Two ships completed in 1908 of 1055 tons. They were armed with two 152mm (6 inch) howiters and 6 76mm (3 inch) guns. They had a draft (draught) of 14 feet for working on rivers (4.3m (14 feet)). They were bought to patrol the rivers along the Brazilian and Paraguayan borders. They were both scrapped in the late 1950s.

In my opinion, the Argentine gunboats aren't suitable for CORE due to their shallow draft and riverine nature. I can't find anything about the Ecuadoran ships so I have to assume that they were pretty small or not available in the time period that we are dealing with. MDow

 

[MateDow]

Can Anybody find any info on the Venezuelan General Soublette and General Urdanetta gunboats?Al I know about then was that they where scrapped in 1950

These were two warships purchased from Italy in 1938. They appear to be riverine gunboats due to their shallow draft (8.5 feet) and light armament (2 102mm (4 inch) guns). They are listed as 615 tons and have a maximum speed of 15 knots. Conway's lists them as ex-Italian Dardanelii-class gunboats, but I can't find a reference to them under Italy. It ways that they were launched in 1925 and discarded in 1950. Hope that this helps. MDow