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Italian OOB
I just recently found an update on the Italian forces that took part in the invasion of Ethiopia.
By 1936, the OOB was as follows
In Eretria
I Corps:
-26th Division
-30th Division
-5th Alpini Division
-4th CCNN Division (militia)
II Corps
-19th Division
-24th Division
-3rd CCNN Division (militia)
III Corps
-27th Division
-1st CCNN Division (militia)
IV Corps
-5th Division
-2nd CCNN Division (militia)
-5th CCNN Division (militia)
Eretrian Corps
-1st Eretrian Division (militia)
-2nd Eretrian Division (militia)
In Italian Somaliland
South Corps
-29th Division
-Libyan Division (militia)
-6th CCNN Division (militia)
-7th CCNN Division (militia)
Here are two potential problems.
#1. Italy will probably take Ethiopia too quickly. Ethiopia fell by May 1936. I have taken Ethiopia (with basically just 6 Regular Infantry Divisions shipped in). The only real problem that I had was the terrain slowed the campaign down. The terrain will still elongate the campaign, but maybe we might think about increasing the strength of the Ethiopian forces as well? They did have about 200 000 men in arms, although most of them would be ill equipped and badly trained.
#2. What will the Italian AI do with all of these Regular Divisions when the war is over? Will Italy keep this large and powerful force to sit and wallow in Ethiopia until they are cut off from supply when the war starts? Does Italy actually ship troops out of Ethiopia? This will require some testing.
I just recently found an update on the Italian forces that took part in the invasion of Ethiopia.
By 1936, the OOB was as follows
In Eretria
I Corps:
-26th Division
-30th Division
-5th Alpini Division
-4th CCNN Division (militia)
II Corps
-19th Division
-24th Division
-3rd CCNN Division (militia)
III Corps
-27th Division
-1st CCNN Division (militia)
IV Corps
-5th Division
-2nd CCNN Division (militia)
-5th CCNN Division (militia)
Eretrian Corps
-1st Eretrian Division (militia)
-2nd Eretrian Division (militia)
In Italian Somaliland
South Corps
-29th Division
-Libyan Division (militia)
-6th CCNN Division (militia)
-7th CCNN Division (militia)
Here are two potential problems.
#1. Italy will probably take Ethiopia too quickly. Ethiopia fell by May 1936. I have taken Ethiopia (with basically just 6 Regular Infantry Divisions shipped in). The only real problem that I had was the terrain slowed the campaign down. The terrain will still elongate the campaign, but maybe we might think about increasing the strength of the Ethiopian forces as well? They did have about 200 000 men in arms, although most of them would be ill equipped and badly trained.
#2. What will the Italian AI do with all of these Regular Divisions when the war is over? Will Italy keep this large and powerful force to sit and wallow in Ethiopia until they are cut off from supply when the war starts? Does Italy actually ship troops out of Ethiopia? This will require some testing.
The human player can take Ethiopia fairly quickly, the AI struggles with occasional wins (!) for Ethiopia. Also remember that there is Ethiopian revolt events so a certain garrison needs to be kept there unless ETH is a puppet (ahistorical choice). The AI does evacuate some forces from there, the garrison settings were fairly carefully tweaked.
About the ETH OOB, take a look at the detail in it... SykoNurse put a lot of research effort into assembling it, the discussion is in the Sub-Sahara thread.
About starting positions for Italy, have you seen this ? How does it compare to what you are proposing and the current OOB? I'm not fond of shuffling divisions from one province to another every time we find a new source so convince me why we should revisit this
EDIT: BTW, Italy has large supply stockpiles in the area...
About the ETH OOB, take a look at the detail in it... SykoNurse put a lot of research effort into assembling it, the discussion is in the Sub-Sahara thread.
About starting positions for Italy, have you seen this ? How does it compare to what you are proposing and the current OOB? I'm not fond of shuffling divisions from one province to another every time we find a new source so convince me why we should revisit this
EDIT: BTW, Italy has large supply stockpiles in the area...
Well, that site has exactly the same Divisions that I posted, just a few are switched around between corps. I think that since they were there and did fight in Ethiopia in 1936, that they should be there in HoI.
here you got a detailed OOB of Italy in the Ethiopia war (in italian):
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/VZita/mvsn_et35.htm
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/VZita/mvsn_et35.htm
Thats not exactly right, the German engines were used for the generation before that the, Macchi MC202's ect which used the DB 1175 hp engine. The 5's had more powerfull DB 1475hp engines, but you are right they made a big difference. The 5's were excellent aircraft, equal to what the US and UK had at that time.
While were on the subject of the Italian AF (if it hasn't been raised already) the starting OOB for their AF in 0.532 have the ' missing from the name of the unit while newly producted units have them included. This causes you to double up on their unit names, also I think that there is a mismatch (spelling/typo) between the names.csv and what in the OOB for the bombers but I can't remember it off hand.
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Ooops, just checked, it is right!
Yes, the bombers divisions were called "Bombierdi" instead of "Bombardieri". It is yet corrected for 0.6
Italy and Resources
I found this exerpt from this website:
http://64.224.13.60/others/fuel/fuel_us.htm
"In the 20s and 30s, Italy imported an average of 12 million tons of good quality coal necessary for industrial production, the generation of electricity, locomotion, and winter heating. When Great Britain decided that an Italian intervention along with Germany was preferable to a pro-German neutrality, Italy was informed on January 14th 1940 of an imminent naval blockade of all coal import from Germany ( at that time coming through the then neutral Netherlands). On February 3rd, London informed Rome of the necessary prerequisites for the reinstitution of shipments of the indispensable coal, which, under the plan, would have been shipped from England. Italy was asked to provide London with a large quantity of war materiel. Following the mediation attempts conducted by the Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano, Great Britain materialized her threats and on March 1st, when units of the Royal Navy interdicted and captured 13 Italian coal ships taking them to internment and confiscating their cargoes."
This is very interesting. An event could be created:
Trigger
If Italy gets coal from Germany
If war between Germany and the Allies
If Italy is neutral
Option A
Italy sticks with Germany, and the overland coal routes start, plus Italy moves more toward the German sphere of influence.
Option B
Italy caves in to the Allies, they get the 10 000 Coal from England (each year), lose 1000 supplies (each year), no longer gain coal from Germany, and face political changes toward the Allies.
-------------------------------
At the same site:
Like the Germans, once Italy joined the Axis they gained oil imports from Romania. 50 000 tons per year (or month??) were shipped in (don't know how much that means in HoI terms).
Also, in 1941 there was an attempted coup in Romania. Italy supported this coup, and oil shipments stopped for a year. Germany had to subsidize this with 80 000 tons arriving at the end of 1942.
Basically German and Romanian shipments managed to keep Italy barely afloat. Since HoI has Italy gaining oil shortages, I think that events like the Coal events, and the Romanian -> Germany oil events should be done for Italy too (if they are axis, if Italy is allied/neutral, england would supply resources).
I will set up a series of events, similar to those for Germany, and post them here.
I found this exerpt from this website:
http://64.224.13.60/others/fuel/fuel_us.htm
"In the 20s and 30s, Italy imported an average of 12 million tons of good quality coal necessary for industrial production, the generation of electricity, locomotion, and winter heating. When Great Britain decided that an Italian intervention along with Germany was preferable to a pro-German neutrality, Italy was informed on January 14th 1940 of an imminent naval blockade of all coal import from Germany ( at that time coming through the then neutral Netherlands). On February 3rd, London informed Rome of the necessary prerequisites for the reinstitution of shipments of the indispensable coal, which, under the plan, would have been shipped from England. Italy was asked to provide London with a large quantity of war materiel. Following the mediation attempts conducted by the Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano, Great Britain materialized her threats and on March 1st, when units of the Royal Navy interdicted and captured 13 Italian coal ships taking them to internment and confiscating their cargoes."
This is very interesting. An event could be created:
Trigger
If Italy gets coal from Germany
If war between Germany and the Allies
If Italy is neutral
Option A
Italy sticks with Germany, and the overland coal routes start, plus Italy moves more toward the German sphere of influence.
Option B
Italy caves in to the Allies, they get the 10 000 Coal from England (each year), lose 1000 supplies (each year), no longer gain coal from Germany, and face political changes toward the Allies.
-------------------------------
At the same site:
Like the Germans, once Italy joined the Axis they gained oil imports from Romania. 50 000 tons per year (or month??) were shipped in (don't know how much that means in HoI terms).
Also, in 1941 there was an attempted coup in Romania. Italy supported this coup, and oil shipments stopped for a year. Germany had to subsidize this with 80 000 tons arriving at the end of 1942.
Basically German and Romanian shipments managed to keep Italy barely afloat. Since HoI has Italy gaining oil shortages, I think that events like the Coal events, and the Romanian -> Germany oil events should be done for Italy too (if they are axis, if Italy is allied/neutral, england would supply resources).
I will set up a series of events, similar to those for Germany, and post them here.
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Re: Italy and Resources
Interesting reading. Rather than creating a new chain, how about just piggy-backing this on the existing coal trade events? I can easily edit in the oil delivery and update the desc. The British blockade will need a couple of new events of course.
Interesting reading. Rather than creating a new chain, how about just piggy-backing this on the existing coal trade events? I can easily edit in the oil delivery and update the desc. The British blockade will need a couple of new events of course.
That's probably the best idea, no need to flood the game with oodles of new events that are not necessary.
Also, what about adding oil events for Italy?
Part 1: Oil from Romania (I think starting in 1940)
Part 2: Oil from Germany (to suppliment Romanian Oil)
The German part could be piggybacked on to the Overland Coal events (i.e., what happens to the coal events when Germany goes to war), while the Romanian Oil could just emulate the transfers of Oil to Germany.
Also, what about adding oil events for Italy?
Part 1: Oil from Romania (I think starting in 1940)
Part 2: Oil from Germany (to suppliment Romanian Oil)
The German part could be piggybacked on to the Overland Coal events (i.e., what happens to the coal events when Germany goes to war), while the Romanian Oil could just emulate the transfers of Oil to Germany.
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Have any of you seen this? If I knew how to code I'd do something with it..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3144984.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3144984.stm
There is yet an Anschluss (can't remeber how it is spelt) event...
There isn't a direct reference to the pope, but Mussolini anger is implemented by other choices...
There isn't a direct reference to the pope, but Mussolini anger is implemented by other choices...
As there isn't an independant Vatican in HoI, it will be difficult to code this, or nay other event related to the Vatican. I had considered coding the death of Pius XI, and the installation of Pius XII, but I failed to find: a. A country for which to code it. It would have to be an event for every nation for which it would matter. Italy, France, Portugal, spain, austria, Hungary, USA, canada, Eire, australia, New Zealand, S.Africa, UK, Belgium, Luxemburg, Holland; b. anything beyond a pure flavor event (not necessarily a bad thing); c. a real reason to do it for the previous reasons.
Italy and early conquests
When I play Italy recently in CORE I always annex Saudi Arabia in1936. It gives some much needed oil as well as a good strategic base to attack the UK middle eastern forces "from behind".
The problem I have is this - it feels like an exploit - which I know I can just refuse to do it, but I don't like that either.
So, one suggestion I have is as follows - each any war after the first (Ethoipia) that ITaly declares there are more penalties - for example - 2nd war - the world market penalties never get turned off (even after the 2nd war ceases) 3rd war - no world market trades allowed at all. 4th - double dissent penalty.
I mean if Italy had declared war on Greece - regardless of the nature of the gov't - there would be a chance of the UK intervening. So also with each sucessive DOW the allies should have an increasing chance of entering a state of war with Italy - not the AXIS, but Italy.
Now I do not know if any of this is even possible in CORE, just some thoughts I wished to share. Thanks again for all the hard word to everyone working on the CORE project.
When I play Italy recently in CORE I always annex Saudi Arabia in1936. It gives some much needed oil as well as a good strategic base to attack the UK middle eastern forces "from behind".
The problem I have is this - it feels like an exploit - which I know I can just refuse to do it, but I don't like that either.
So, one suggestion I have is as follows - each any war after the first (Ethoipia) that ITaly declares there are more penalties - for example - 2nd war - the world market penalties never get turned off (even after the 2nd war ceases) 3rd war - no world market trades allowed at all. 4th - double dissent penalty.
I mean if Italy had declared war on Greece - regardless of the nature of the gov't - there would be a chance of the UK intervening. So also with each sucessive DOW the allies should have an increasing chance of entering a state of war with Italy - not the AXIS, but Italy.
Now I do not know if any of this is even possible in CORE, just some thoughts I wished to share. Thanks again for all the hard word to everyone working on the CORE project.
I have already coded the pope dead and replaced events. i placed them in italian ids and whenever the vatican makes a statement (condemnation\recognition) to a country a event fires for italy and the country affected.
Ghost_dk
OK. I haven't checked the ID registry in a while. Though I should have guessed since I saw the Vatican supports SPA event fire.
Ivasion Responses
So Someone mentioned that the UK should get involved if Italy becomes a bit too militant. Well in fact In my Core .61 games it has happened that I have been attacked by the UK for invading greece or turkey at times. I have also been attacked by the germas if I try to invade Hungary, Romania, Albania. (and at a guess Czechoslovakia) This was all pre 1939.
So Someone mentioned that the UK should get involved if Italy becomes a bit too militant. Well in fact In my Core .61 games it has happened that I have been attacked by the UK for invading greece or turkey at times. I have also been attacked by the germas if I try to invade Hungary, Romania, Albania. (and at a guess Czechoslovakia) This was all pre 1939.
I was noticing some interesting behaviour by the Italian AI, that they would usually immediately join the war in Europe, or they would just sit it out. How about an event that is triggered by the Fall of Paris, that has two options.
Option A: Don't let Hitler show you up, grab what spoils you can and join the Axis.
Option B: We aren't ready for a war.
Any thoughts?
Option A: Don't let Hitler show you up, grab what spoils you can and join the Axis.
Option B: We aren't ready for a war.
Any thoughts?
IIRC we had just that, it was criticised for two things and removed:
- First, it didn't have a B option thus forcing Italy into the war on the Axis side
- Second, it wasn't needed. Italy would be brought in via normal diplo rather than auto-joined as Germany get's too many freebies already.
In my experience Italy is always at war before the end of 1940. Have you got any games where they've gone into 1941 while at peace?