C.O.R.E HOI - Germany

[brandnew70x7]

Heres an idea I had:

A German Submarine squadron visited Finland commemorating the German Liberation of Finland in WWI. Maybe it should slightly move Finland some fascist points?

 

[SykoNurse]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
be careful with scale of dissent hits or bonuses (AI got real problems with dissent) - 1,2 % would be enough.

these of course are suggestions, feel free to discuss or alter any effects. Generalissimo said make em: there you are Finally it´s him that makes them final...
the dissent hits i suggested are that high because of our earlier discussion about germany having a crapload of events that lower dissent. events are basically meant to balance this and add flavour. also steel´s idea of lowering germany´s initial values will smooth down everything.

Originally posted by Burris
Heres an idea I had:

A German Submarine squadron visited Finland commemorating the German Liberation of Finland in WWI. Maybe it should slightly move Finland some fascist points?

cool! when was that visit?

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Well, it's not the secret that Germany were interested in adding Poland to the Axis - but there was very, very slim chance for that. Many reasons, but most important:
1) Germany were one of countries which divided Poland at the end of XVIII century. Thanks to that (and agressive Bismarck "Kulturkampf") polish society was strongly anti-german (as anti-soviet, or rather anti-russian as well).
2) In late 30-ties Poland was allied with France (later with England) and believed that Allies are more powerful than Germany (I WW experience).
3) ANY territory lost thanks to political agreement in Poland means suicide of goverment. It's mostly experience of dividing Poland at the end of XVIII century - something like that would result in revolution. So even alternative outcome of of "Danzig or WAR" in HoI is probably too optimistic - dissent hit of 20-30% and sort of coup (like in Yugoslavia) would be more probable.

This was discussed in the Western Europe thread, page 6. I'd be interested in your comments on the posts there. Generally speaking I think this could be great alternate history and it's an important survival option for a Polish player, however there may be some issues about military access and territory control that could break the Russo-German war if Poland still exists.

 

[SykoNurse]

in 1938 Himmler and other officials brought to life the "Expedition Schäfer". their purpose was to find out about an ancient possible warrior religion from which other asian religions and philosophies like buddhism might have been offsprings.
their scientist wen to the hymalaya to:
-- find writings in tibetan monastries that contained knowledge of an ancient indo-germanic religion
- gain meteorological, zoological and geological knowledge
- find out about britains actual influence in that region

in 39 the expedition returned and were almost drowned in honorings. in spring 1942, wehrmacht being deep in russian territory, himmler ordered to to massively support the asia research for he judged it as a necessary war effort.
on january 16th 1943 the
Sven Hedin Institut für Innerasienforschung was opened.
german media was full of asia related topics and a new film geheimnis tibet (mistery Tibet) was used in propaganda to
- raise war enthusiasm
- glorify german elite warriors for asia
- presentation of Tibet as a possible ally against england/india
- documentation of an ancient indo-germanic highculture
- find out about magic ritual cults of lamaism

personally I think this is so far out it has to be included. could be only a small flavour event, bringing 5 manpower in 1943 when the film was released. maybe something else, suggestions?

source in german
also this has nothing to do with Heinrich Harrer´s story depicted in 7 Years in Tibet...

 

[SykoNurse]

okay then scrap it. i´ll just edit out the stuff that looks offensive.
wouldnt see it as fantasy exactly. just a minor event that happened because of himmler being a whacko...

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Originally posted by Steel
This was discussed in the Western Europe thread, page 6. I'd be interested in your comments on the posts there. Generally speaking I think this could be great alternate history and it's an important survival option for a Polish player, however there may be some issues about military access and territory control that could break the Russo-German war if Poland still exists.

Ok, I checked that. Seems reasonable - but main trigger for this course of action IMO should be seceding Gdansk (only and only when Poland is alone, not allied with England). Then Germany could suggest joining AntiComintern Pact (month later?), then full alliance. All the time with high unrest and possibility of revolt.

There is no problem for resourceful player to join the Axis anyway - after dumping Gdansk Poland, as a Paternal Autocrat can ask Germany for that and it's very rarely declined.

But there is another problem - if Poland joins Axis, then there is no common border between USSR and Germany and in case of war German AI is too dumb to help Poland. Result - Soviet blitz, Poland simply have not enough manpower to hold them. Strangely, in test game Germany were not that interested in attacking USSR - Soviets attacked first (in 1942).

 

[brandnew70x7]

May 1937 the submarine squadron visited.

 

[SykoNurse]

thanks,
btw Burris, I dropped you a PM

 

[brandnew70x7]

########################################################################
# Finnish 30th Anniversary
########################################################################
event = {
id = 1002001
random = no
country = FIN
trigger = {
exists = GER
NOT = {
war = { country = GER country = FIN }
}
}
name = "Finland Celebrates Independence"
desc = "Commemorating the 30th anniversary of independence with German help, a German submarine squadron has visited us, and the Germans bring a message of good will!"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1937 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = may year = 1937 }

action_a = {
name = "Okay"
command = { type = dissent value = -5 }
command = { type = alignment which = fascist value = 5 }
}
}

 

[SykoNurse]

cool

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by SykoNurse
in 1938 Himmler and other officials brought to life the "Expedition Schäfer". their purpose was to find out about an ancient possible warrior religion from which other asian religions and philosophies like buddhism might have been offsprings.
their scientist wen to the hymalaya to:
-- find writings in tibetan monastries that contained knowledge of an ancient indo-germanic religion
- gain meteorological, zoological and geological knowledge
- find out about britains actual influence in that region

in 39 the expedition returned and were almost drowned in honorings. in spring 1942, wehrmacht being deep in russian territory, himmler ordered to to massively support the asia research for he judged it as a necessary war effort.
on january 16th 1943 the
Sven Hedin Institut für Innerasienforschung was opened.
german media was full of asia related topics and a new film geheimnis tibet (mistery Tibet) was used in propaganda to
- raise war enthusiasm
- glorify german elite warriors for asia
- presentation of Tibet as a possible ally against england/india
- documentation of an ancient indo-germanic highculture
- find out about magic ritual cults of lamaism

personally I think this is so far out it has to be included. could be only a small flavour event, bringing 5 manpower in 1943 when the film was released. maybe something else, suggestions?

source in german
also this has nothing to do with Heinrich Harrer´s story depicted in 7 Years in Tibet...

well, we could add this in a couple of events,
-1 that starts the expedition, if this events is rejected (option B) all the other go to sleep
-then 1 event that lowers manpower in 38, so the expedition starts.
-when the wehrmacht is deep inside russia, one events that support the asian expedition (we should discuss which provinces mean "deep"), lowers manpower
-in 1943 that institute is opened and the films are made public
tibet become more "pro-german", more manpower.
-if tibet support all that, it receives later an event to join the axis (only after the institute is opened in germany and Tibet supported the german effort)

i think this looks good and will add more historical things.
we are not talking about any mass asesination or anything like that, just Himmler was the one that started this, but that doesn't need to make us throw all this.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Burris
########################################################################
# Finnish 30th Anniversary
########################################################################
event = {
id = 1002001
random = no
country = FIN
trigger = {
exists = GER
NOT = {
war = { country = GER country = FIN }
}
}
name = "Finland Celebrates Independence"
desc = "Commemorating the 30th anniversary of independence with German help, a German submarine squadron has visited us, and the Germans bring a message of good will!"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1937 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 30 month = may year = 1937 }

action_a = {
name = "Okay"
command = { type = dissent value = -5 }
command = { type = alignment which = fascist value = 5 }
}
}

added

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Copper Nicus
Ok, I checked that. Seems reasonable - but main trigger for this course of action IMO should be seceding Gdansk (only and only when Poland is alone, not allied with England). Then Germany could suggest joining AntiComintern Pact (month later?), then full alliance. All the time with high unrest and possibility of revolt.

There is no problem for resourceful player to join the Axis anyway - after dumping Gdansk Poland, as a Paternal Autocrat can ask Germany for that and it's very rarely declined.

But there is another problem - if Poland joins Axis, then there is no common border between USSR and Germany and in case of war German AI is too dumb to help Poland. Result - Soviet blitz, Poland simply have not enough manpower to hold them. Strangely, in test game Germany were not that interested in attacking USSR - Soviets attacked first (in 1942).

well, i think that we need to change some things...
before the "Danzig or WAR"event we should add a new event, (so we modify only the necesary parts of the original game ) that gives Germany the option to negociate the exchange of Danzig with Poland, it should offer to Poland Slovakia and some parts of Romania (posible 1 province, not more, because we must supose that it will make Romania angry and it will surelly not acept). Then if Poland refuse, the events will follow the historical (original events) course... but, if Poland agrees, national claims for Poland over Czechs and Romania event to secede the province (someone tell which province it should be) and Danzig to Germany, some dissent hit (15%) and Poland signs the Tripartite Pact.
To create a front between Germany and USSR, when Poland signs the Tripartite Pact, we could give claims over Lithuania/Latvia/Estonia to Germany, so they invade that, OR, USSR get claims over the baltics states, (because the MOL-RIB pact will never happen, we must send it to sleep), so USSR will have north front with Germany
when Poland conquers the Czechs territories they must get some lower dissent event, also when they get the romanian province.

what do you think?

this will make poland playable even with signing the pact

 

[SykoNurse]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
i think this looks good and will add more historical things.
we are not talking about any mass asesination or anything like that, just Himmler was the one that started this, but that doesn't need to make us throw all this.

happy to see that
Burris had a point there though...but i also think with Himmler´s ideology, that made him supporting the research in this field, left out of the event it´s acceptable. that part was only meant to explain the whole thing anyway, not to be included. sorry, felt like saying that (again).

we should discuss which provinces mean "deep"

um, that depends if we want to see the ai have it i think. in the last 10 games i had, the russian ai steamrolled to the atlantic ocean...german ai hardly ever made it to minsk...so already minsk could be far east...
in my personal opinion "deep" enough could be defined by setting the trigger into the Ukrainian independance event.

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Generalisimo
what do you think?

this will make poland playable even with signing the pact

My original thinking on this is basically that it's the Polish rejection of the Anti-Comintern offer that leads to the Danzig crisis, so I agree with the general structure you proposed. It would be a B choice for Poland to accept the German offer and this would then sleep the UK alliance and the Danzig event.

 

[brandnew70x7]

Tibet would of NOT allied with Germany. The UK was the only thing keeping Tibet from getting invaded from China.

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Burris
Tibet would of NOT allied with Germany. The UK was the only thing keeping Tibet from getting invaded from China.

if German forces were threatened Tibet, they will surelly think about it... option A could be refuse, but option B will give the option to a player to join the axis, maybe we can put 3 options:
A- refuse
B- give germany military access
C- start a pro-axis campaign

then, a event with random=20 AND an offset=30 or something like that will be checking with to trigger and let the player join the axis.
option A: join the axis
option B: maintain our support, but stay neutral

 

[brandnew70x7]

In 1938, I highly doubt Tibet was threatened by German soldiers :-/

 

[Generalisimo]

Originally posted by Burris
In 1938, I highly doubt Tibet was threatened by German soldiers :-/

who said 1938???
we are talking about 1943

-when the wehrmacht is deep inside russia, one events that support the asian expedition (we should discuss which provinces mean "deep"), lowers manpower
-in 1943 that institute is opened and the films are made public
tibet become more "pro-german", more manpower.
-if tibet support all that, it receives later an event to join the axis (only after the institute is opened in germany and Tibet supported the german effort)

 

[brandnew70x7]

I still see no chance for an alliance with Tibet. For one, it would yield nothing what-so-ever, and for two the Chinese would've overran the country within weeks. (See the PLA attacking Tibet in the 50's)