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unmerged(33222)

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Aug 14, 2004
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Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Georing's Four Year Plan, but it seems as though the idea fizzled out due to lack of information. You could consider Goering's four year plan akin to the already present industrialization triggers for Britain and the USSR, except instead of focusing on new labor programs, it was primarily driven towards autarky in food, industrial output, raw materials and machinery output. In the end, there was certainly some success to achieve this end.

-Unemployment was certainly lowered - it drew great praise from nations outside Germany. Many historians have come to question the success of the programme in actually lowering unemployment as their a natural up-turn in the world economy after 1933.

-Work creation schemes and massive social programmes certainly gave the impression of a vibrant, exciting and exhilarating work for all scheme. The GLF, through Strength Through Joy and The Beauty of Work, may have improved working conditions but real wages rarely rose between 1933-39 despite a distinct labour shortage.

-Heavy industry certainly showed improvement in output - especially industries related to the military and rearmament.

-Iron, steel and chemicals also saw an up-turn in their output figures - this again was partly due to international sales and government patronage.

-Rearmament plans were extensive but they did not provide the platform for full-scale war. That was certainly realised in Sept and Oct 1939. At best the army had enough ammunition and shells for 6 weeks of warfare.

-The strains of attempting to produce for guns and butter produced an economic crisis by 1939 which (according to the historian Ian Kershaw) may have convinced Hitler to go to war early. As such, we understand Hilter's motive for war as resources.

Now, at the bottom of the page http://www.kdhs.org.uk/history/as/as_unit3/4_year_plan_eval.htm there is a graph depicting the overall output of German raw materials for the year. Perhaps each year could be a trigger giving x amount of coal, steel, rubber, and oil to add to the stockpiles up until 1939.

As for how much? Well, I did some rudimentary math conversions based on things I've read about. It was said that von Paulus's 6th army at Stalingrad needed 700 tons of supplies daily to keep it up to par, and it was a 20 division army, mostly infantry, give or take some mechanized and maybe an artillery division or what not here and there. In CORE, that translates to about 35-45 supplies daily. So you're looking at every point in supplies and raw materials and what not as being 17 tons of whatever it may be. Looking at the graph which is in thousands of tons, that would be a ridiculous amount of stuff to stockpile for Germany.

One thing we have to keep in mind is to make the output increase for each subsequent year. So, start with 1936, and I'd say 3000 coal, 2000 steel, 1000 oil, and maybe 500 rubber. Up until 1939, the increase in steel and oil should probably go up by 40 percent each subsequent year, while coal and rubber goes up by 20 percent, as the plan was mostly geared towards the two former. The percentage should be of the base value, so steel will go up 800 every year, oil will go up by 400, coal by 600, and rubber by 100 hundred. So it would look something like this.

1937 - Coal: 3000
Steel: 2000
Oil: 1000
Rubber: 500

1938 - Coal: 3600
Steel: 2800
Oil: 1400
Rubber: 600

1939 - Coal: 4200
- Steel: 3600
- Oil: 1800
- Rubber: 700

1940 - Coal: 4800
-Steel: 4400
- Oil: 2200
- Rubber: 800

Since it also mentioned that the army had only enough shells and ammo for 6 weeks of fighting when the war in Poland began, a decrease in supplies yearly in exchange for this increase in raw materials could be factored in. Say you lose 2000 supplies in the beginning, with an increase of supply loss yearly by 30 percent. This would mean minus 2000 in '37, 2600 in '38, 3200 in '39, and 3800 in '40. This way, it's a double-edged sword. While it enables Germany to carry on with their industry that much longer, it means they'll have to seriously devote more energy to produce enough supplies to feed and fuel their army.

Yes? No?

*edit* Oh yeah, the trigger would read something like this.

Title: Goering and the 4 Year Plan

In September 1936, with the inauguration of the Four Year-Plan under the iron control of Goering, who replaced Schacht as economic dictator though he was almost as ignorant of business as was Hitler, Germany went over to a total war economy. The purpose of the plan was to make Germany self-sufficient in four years, so that a wartime blockade would not stifle it. Imports were reduced to a bare minimum, severe price and wage controls were introduced, dividends restricted to 6 percent, great factories set up to make, synthetic rubber, textiles, fuel and other products from Germany’s own sources of raw materials, and a giant Hermann Goering Works established to make steel out of the local low-grade ore. In short, the German economy was mobilized for war, and businessmen, though their profits soared, became mere cogs in a war machine, their work circumscribed by so many restrictions. (Shirer, William L.) The plan was largely a success, except it curtailed production of guns and butter. By 1939 a severe economic crisis had emerged as the army estimated it had only enough shells and ammunition for 6 weeks of fighting.
 
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unmerged(33037)

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Aug 10, 2004
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Waffen

In the Core 0.83 (i dont know if also in the 0.84) the Germany in the only country that has the Elite Units, which are stronger. But you can build only Mot, Mech and Cav Elite Units, not Armoured. The very Elitè of the Waffen SS in reality were the Panzer Division. The LeibStandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking, Hohenstaufen, Frunsberg, Hitlerjungen were PanzerDivision. Many of Theese were PanzerGrenadier before but they were converted in Panzer Division. But maybe a Waffen SS Panzer Division would be too strong?
My question is: Why we dont have the Waffen SS PanzerDivision? Maybe only a limitated number...
 

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Vittorio Perazzolo said:
In the Core 0.83 (i dont know if also in the 0.84) the Germany in the only country that has the Elite Units, which are stronger.
They aren't stronger in C.O.R.E., they just have 10% better organization. Historically, the Waffen SS units not only had better morale (generally), but the also got the best equipment coming out of Germany's battered industry. The only current game mechanic to represent this is that when you (as a human player) go to upgrade a unit, you manually upgrade the SS units before you do any others. The SS units should not be stronger, because there's nothing preventing equipping a regular Wehrmacht unit with the same gear, both in the game and historically. SS being "stronger" wasn't so much a fact as a custom, which also varied tremendously depending on the prestige of the Wehrmacht corps and army commanders, and their ability to insist that the REMFs not short-change them on reinforcement/resupply.
 

unmerged(33037)

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ShadoWarrior said:
They aren't stronger in C.O.R.E., they just have 10% better organization. Historically, the Waffen SS units not only had better morale (generally), but the also got the best equipment coming out of Germany's battered industry. The only current game mechanic to represent this is that when you (as a human player) go to upgrade a unit, you manually upgrade the SS units before you do any others. The SS units should not be stronger, because there's nothing preventing equipping a regular Wehrmacht unit with the same gear, both in the game and historically. SS being "stronger" wasn't so much a fact as a custom, which also varied tremendously depending on the prestige of the Wehrmacht corps and army commanders, and their ability to insist that the REMFs not short-change them on reinforcement/resupply.


I dont know very well the English and so to tell that they had a major organisation i simply said that the Ss were "stronger". Historically the SS in certain case had better equipment: The Tiger II KonigTiger were given mostly to the Waffen SS.
 

unmerged(26538)

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Mar 6, 2004
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Germany allies

Can be added more event for german alliances? After the anexion of Austria I (as Germany) invade Hungary, without problems or consequences. I do the same, later, with Romania and Bulgaria.
So why made them allies if I can anex or puppet them? Basicly I think that should be added extra events that made alliances with Hungary, Romani and Bulgaria more usefull.

Plus an extra event like this:
If germany (human player) discover 1st infantry tech of level 7th, then Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria recive the entire techs of infantry level 5th. Just to made them more efective to fight the soviets, otherwise they will be overuned.
 

unmerged(26538)

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Mar 6, 2004
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Finland

Also, please add some more events (or techs at least) to Finland, to made finish troops more harder to defeat. Or mayby remplace they infantry divisions with mountain divisions, to incress the advantage on mobility for the finish on hard terrains. And mayby some AT brigades could be added as well, to reflect finish tactics vs soviet tanks and the dificulties of operate tanks for the soviets.
I remark this becose Finland ussualy is defeated by the soviets very easily, very early.
 

unmerged(17767)

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Diego EV said:
Plus an extra event like this:
If germany (human player) discover 1st infantry tech of level 7th, then Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria recive the entire techs of infantry level 5th. Just to made them more efective to fight the soviets, otherwise they will be overuned.

But they were over run. Stalingrad being the prime example in my mind. You can, however, share techs with them if you like to beef them up.
 

unmerged(27608)

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Any thoughts about having military performance impact dissent? Victory after victory by Germany increased national pride (lower dissent). Seems like a natural offset to the dissent penalty when you declare war against a country. Declaring war increases dissent, maybe annexation elminates almost as much?
 

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TNVol04 said:
Any thoughts about having military performance impact dissent? Victory after victory by Germany increased national pride (lower dissent). Seems like a natural offset to the dissent penalty when you declare war against a country. Declaring war increases dissent, maybe annexation elminates almost as much?

While this was part of the original plan for HOI by paradox it is not implemented and is not something that can be modded.

Ghost_dk
 

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Ghost_dk said:
While this was part of the original plan for HOI by paradox it is not implemented and is not something that can be modded.
Modding in dissent decreases after an annexation cannot be done? Isn't the only thing required is that there be an event that periodically checks for the (non)existence of a nation and then acts accordingly? That's oversimplifying the case, but it gets the gist of it. Granted, we'd be talking about huge numbers of events if we were to cover all possible cases, but at the very least the major powers should have such events to cover things like Fall of Poland, Fall of France, Occupation of England, etc. for Germany, and similar events for the allied nations, the Soviet Union, and for Japan.

Personally, for my own use, I have modded in dissent decreases into the events triggering Vichy France, Polish Partition, etc. as these events conveniently already exist saving the need to create special events. An even more convenient (in the case of Germany) series of events that could have dissent decreases tacked on are all the events associated with how the German occupation will be conducted, since these events exist for all the countries Germany historically occupied. For other combatant nations (and significant targets), a modicum of new events shouldn't be hard to implement.
 

JRaup

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ShadoWarrior said:
Modding in dissent decreases after an annexation cannot be done? Isn't the only thing required is that there be an event that periodically checks for the (non)existence of a nation and then acts accordingly? That's oversimplifying the case, but it gets the gist of it. Granted, we'd be talking about huge numbers of events if we were to cover all possible cases, but at the very least the major powers should have such events to cover things like Fall of Poland, Fall of France, Occupation of England, etc. for Germany, and similar events for the allied nations, the Soviet Union, and for Japan.

Personally, for my own use, I have modded in dissent decreases into the events triggering Vichy France, Polish Partition, etc. as these events conveniently already exist saving the need to create special events. An even more convenient (in the case of Germany) series of events that could have dissent decreases tacked on are all the events associated with how the German occupation will be conducted, since these events exist for all the countries Germany historically occupied. For other combatant nations (and significant targets), a modicum of new events shouldn't be hard to implement.

This has been some what covered by the various occupation events for Germany, and soon the USSR. However, if this was to be done for all possibilities for all nations, we're talking a lot of events. A whole lot of 'em. The other probelmatic aspect of this is that dissent in HoI has a wide rnage of effects, many of which are necesarily appropriate to the situation. So while a bunch of upset French peasants may effect IC percenatges for Germany when ocupying France, it shouldn't have an effect on how well the Germans fight in Russia. So, if something beyond what's in place, or in the pipe line is to be implemented, it will have to be on a case by case basis, and carefully balanced.
 

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Tank Tech

In CORE Italy starts with Amphib Tanks tech, yet Germany does not. Is this WAD? Is it just for play balance?
 

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New Order West Event

Breaking the habbit, i have choosen to play with germany instead of a minor country and i steamrolled through europe.

I have occupied england (except for belfast) and gibraltar. I conquered egypt and the suez canal too, but those places got annexed by italy, my ally.

UK isnt allied with the US. This situation is around for about a year now and NOW hasnt kicked in. What exactly are the prequisites for NOW to kick in? I know there's a random chance for it to kick in... but in about a year it should have, i trust?
 

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Perhaps the U.S. AI feared you power?

Europe felt "the power" they no more talk back :eek:
 

unmerged(15218)

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What triggers are needed to get the Bitter Peace event? I'm Germany and have control of Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad and Baku and all the territories behind that line and Bitter Peace hasn't triggered. I assume you guys changed it from vanilla HOI but I just want to know what conditions have to be met, that is if there still is a Bitter Peace event.
 

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Soviet inability to fight

Guys I have noticed in my games as Germany that the USSR rarely stands up to any sort of punishment due to the economic imbalance in my games, note this is single player only. Please allow me to explain what I mean by economic imbalance.

At the game start as Germany I immediately replace Frick with Himmler, this lowers CG requirements and while the manpower hit is large its far less than the economic hit of having Frick instead. On 1 Jan '37 Wermer who remains in place until the first round of conquest is over replaces Himmler. My build up to war is much like anyone else’s I imagine, however I do not build any armor until late '38. During the interwar period I concentrate my techs on industrial, artillery, tank, electronic, heavy air, light air, infantry, land doctrines and air doctrines in that order. When it comes time to construct armor I build only 0.50 caliber tankettes with attached engineer brigades. Why is that you may ask? Well tankettes are the fastest building, fastest moving and best buy per IC before '41. As soon as the End of the Czech Republic event fires I select partition with Hungary. At this point I save the game finish my deployments and due my DoW in this order, Poland (which gets the allies), Hungary (useless minor), Yugoslavia (see Hungary), Switzerland (see Hungary), Netherlands (Belgium neutral so no retreat) and finally I demand Lux (they usually surrender on the second go). Over the course of the next month I conquer Yugo, Hungary, Poland, Swiss, Netherlands then turn my armor to Belgium and France. Since I have Switzerland out of the way the Maginot is a joke I pincer north and south and push the last of the French troops into Tarbes and kill them. At this point I replace Wermer with Frick since manpower is of less importance than the IC's. Next on the hit list is Spain and Portugal, which are done usually by June or July '39. With all of Europe, baring Italy behind you with Frick in you should be running at 800-1k IC. When Wessenburg happens choose the declare war on all three flatten Norway and annex, then puppet Sweden. At this point the world is sort of open to you, you can DoW Italy and annex them in a few months via north Africa, or any other odd gambit you wish.

Sorry about the long-winded how-to on Germany but this is going somewhere . Anyway by 1 Jan '41 you are running at a solid 1000+ IC the Soviets a paltry 500ish. I don’t care how much manpower they have they are a joke at this point. By July '41 you have improved 88mm if you went that way or improved 75mm medium, June '40, with advanced 88mm in Sept '41. Which of course leads to a 3 to 4 month Barbarossa campaign before the Soviets sue for peace.

The Soviets economy cannot grow sufficiently quickly to overcome the vast growth that the German economy is capable of achieving. Even with the Five Year plans in place the Soviets, AI only, cannot hope to gain 500 IC’s. With those 500 extra IC’s Germany leaps far beyond the USSR in the tech race, as well as unit production. Furthermore, the Soviet AI is woefully incapable of getting the Land and Air doctrines required to match Germany before the war is begun. When the Red Army faces off against Germany in basic medium 40mm tanks and basic interceptors against improved medium 75mm mediums and improved ground attack bombers it’s a foregone conclusion.

Now I have looked at this problem and the core of the matter is the fact that a smart player never chooses the historic route. Why be trapped into repeating history if we know how it played out originally. Therefore I have created a set of additional events for the USSR that I will outline below.

Should Germany choose any of the following ahistoric options the Soviets have the option of adding additional IC capacity through forced labour:

Partition of Czech with Hungary
Conquest of Hungary
Conquest of Yugoslavia
Total Conquest of France
Conquest of Spain
Conquest of Romania
Limited M-R Pact
No Deals with the Bolsheviks

Additionally at the conclusion of the Finnish Winter War the Soviets gain Early War Combat Experience Analysis for both Air and Land doctrines if the Finns fold.

Now what do these changes make to the game? At the start of Barbarosa with the above outlined German strategy the Soviet economy is about 750 IC total with improved tank divisions just coming off the line. This allows the Soviets to put up a sufficient resistance that the war in the east comes down to few critical battles where the war is won or lost on the gamble of a hard strike at say Tula or even Moscow where failure to win a victory means a long cold winter of watching the Soviets grow in strength while the Germany army withers.

For brevities sake I have not posted the additional events as they are cross-tied with events from multiple countries and would require a few additional pages of text space. Should the fokes at CORE wish them I will gladly email the event tree to them.

Note: this is a repost from my origional post on the USSR thread