C.O.R.E HOI - Germany

[mike8472]

Well i disagree there. Most games can be short, but im am playing a current game in CORE 0.64 MP with 4 other players. We are at 1942 im Germany and slowing pushing the Soviets back but it is going to be one long war as we are evenly matched, i would dare say it will go into 43 and 44. I dont think Germany really needs more IC at that point maybe more manpower through full mobilisation of the economy. As its nearly 42 and i have and industry well over 1300 IC has Germany, so any more and i cant sustain it. But there definately should be an event for full moblisation of the economy say after June 1942, as you know its going to be a long game.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Ok, valid point.

I'll think about something appropriate...

 

[mike8472]

Ok, valid point.

I'll think about something appropriate...

After testing this in a few games now germany cant hold of Soviets past 42 as manpower is to low, fighting a good russian opponent that is. I understand the manpower is set for SP which is good. But for MP there should be few more events, or some thing else so Germany can at least last the distance to 45. Thats what were trying to do play a game till 45 or ;ater with 6 people.

So to keep this game historical which i know yous are trying your best to do, this needs to be adjusted. If you need to test a new version of CORE MP let me know as me and my mates play nearly every night, we can play test it for you. Not only for bugs but game balance.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

After testing this in a few games now germany cant hold of Soviets past 42 as manpower is to low, fighting a good russian opponent that is. I understand the manpower is set for SP which is good. But for MP there should be few more events, or some thing else so Germany can at least last the distance to 45. Thats what were trying to do play a game till 45 or ;ater with 6 people.

So to keep this game historical which i know yous are trying your best to do, this needs to be adjusted. If you need to test a new version of CORE MP let me know as me and my mates play nearly every night, we can play test it for you. Not only for bugs but game balance.

I don't play MP at all, so I don't feel this topic right...
It would be great if you could post the list of the main balance/problems/issues with the MP version of CORE - so far SP and MP are basically the same and IMO it's not good idea in playability terms for both (although it makes implementation much easier).

 

[unmerged(10168)]

No! To two front war!

Could you program in an event that if Germany gets involved for ANY reason with the USSR pre-1939 that she foregoes the Danzig claim and a threatening war with the Western Allies? She might even try to go the other way and try to get the democracies to help out (wouldn't that be a dream come true!) Why not? They got the great propagandist Goebbels plus Leni Riefenstahl and don't forget there were more than a few Nazi sympathizers around the globe in Japan, South America and the United States (heard that Lindbergh was one though I don't know if that's true).

Just wouldn't want a repeat of my disastrous Italian experience in the vanila 1.05c patched game. I got involved with the Spanish Civil War - actually USSR first got involved militarily with the Republicans then I joined in to bolster the Nationalists and ended up fighting the Soviets! My Regia Marina got LOTS of gunnery practice - look out British Mediterranean Fleet come 1940 I thought - and eventually Germany and lots of the Eastern European countries got dragged in and we were battling the Russkies to a standstill and I'm sending out all these peace feelers to the West and the USA - Tell your paisans in New York to help us here capice? When Germany goes and screws it all by demanding Danzig and starting a war with the west.

Best regards,
Richmond

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Could you program in an event that if Germany gets involved for ANY reason with the USSR pre-1939 that she foregoes the Danzig claim and a threatening war with the Western Allies? (...)

It's hardcoded in program that Western Allies DoW Germany, when their WE reaches 100 (AFAIK, France do this). Therefore, you can't avoid the war with them.

 

[L G]

Hmm im pretty sure the Total war was proclaimed by Albert Speer in '43 after Kursk and Sicily invasions......

And my God how do you have 1300 IC's?

 

[JRaup]

Hmm im pretty sure the Total war was proclaimed by Albert Speer in '43 after Kursk and Sicily invasions......

And my God how do you have 1300 IC's?

I doubt a "Total War" event will make it into CORE. As CN said, we can't dictate how the AI will use those ectra ICs, so we can't make a historically functioning event on it.

And getting 1300 IC as Germany isn't all that difficult. You get a decent boost from teh Anschluss of Austria, and the take over of Caechoslovakia. Then you add Poland, the Low Countries, and most of France. Then you add on the appropriate industrial techs (propolyne, etc), and have a minister with a IC boost. If you crush certain nations, such as SAF, BeNeLux, you get your pre-WW1 colonies back, which adds to your total. On the whole, I can get 1800+ IC as Germany when I play right.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

Yes, it's pretty easy - in fact the only limit I find in late game is the lack of steel, as the other resources can be easily converted.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

I got a issue with the 'Allies blockade german shipping' event.
Fist I think its a bit harsh on dissent when U get several in a short time.
2nd Is that event chain purely random or is there some presence off Allied seaunits needed to trigger? ... < snip> Szun

I also have a lot of problems with these Allies Blockade events. BTW, the only way that I could find this thread as a player new to CORE was by going thru each German page and searching for blockade. Search did not help (it only mentioned the big BETA discussion thread which is useless for finding information for a new player).

Based upon my experiences in a few 0.63 Germany games, this event often fires in pairs. After I got the paired firing, I saved for the day and got a third event within a week or so on the reload. For several months I had nothing, then three within a week or so. I've conquered Denmark but have not attacked Holland or Belgium. I didn't seem to have the event for quite a while until I lost a naval battle near Hamburg.

What can I do to reduce or eliminate this event from happening?

Finally I can't understand why I am losing resources and getting dissent from this kind of activity. The normal trade during war reduces my world market trades to 10% or less of the nominal trade. Isn't that enough loss of trade? Wouldn't that standard 90% loss of trade easily cover the effects of a random blockade?

As to dissent increases, why? Why would my citizens be more unhappy when something they know nothing about due to censorship, something that happens when foreign neutrals are intercepted, translates in game terms into dissent events? I thought that one of the lessons of WW2 as especially revealed by the massive bombing of cities was that the citizens were remarkably resilient and were willing to endure hardships. In CORE, however, they seem to be pampered twits who become less productive when they don't get their candy or tea.

I really do not see the need at all for these Allied Blockade events due to the normal loss of trade during war. I don't see any reason why dissent should increase. I don't see any reason why Allied seizing of neutral ships that were heading for Germany has to be in the game as it's already abstracted by the normal loss of trade during war. Random events like this don't add anything to the game, they hurt it by annoying and frustrating the players.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

It's all the matter of modeling tools we have.

We got historical situation - in 1939 Germany were suddenly cut off from the rare material sources by the blocade. Romania was not allied, France and UK were making agressive gestures in the Scandinavia (to block iron ore deliveries). Italy, Germany's Pact of Steel partner was also neutral. All the world was pretty sure that:

1) war will end in the spring 1940, when France and UK will go offensive,

OR

2) war will be long and similar to the 1914-1918 conflict.

The only thing that allowed Germany to run their industry effectively in this critical period were Soviet resources, send to them thanks to the trade pact signed in the december 1939.

That's history. How can we model that in game?

1) In HoI, resources for the Germany are usually not a problem. Human player is able to create a large stock of those before the war.

2) There is no way to simulate direct (lost ships/deliveries on the way) an indirect (lost contracts) losses in trade - game attempts to do this (market at work works less efficient), but thanks to the point (1) it rarely works.

3) in HoI German player don't need Mol-Rib Pact, as it makes his march to Moscov harder and rarely gives him something valuable.

4) in HoI offensive on France starts in October 1939, not May 1940.

To simulate this tricky situation, CORE uses:

1) chain of events that simulate losses from the blocade. Those losses are direct as there is no better way to simulate that. Dissent is added to make those losses really affect the industry (resource hits are not very effective).

2) chain of the events that simulates GER-SOV trade pact. If Germany go historically (Rib-Mol Pact), then they got option to make a trade pact and gain valuable resources from the USSR. It balances nicely blocade.


Problems:

We still work on better triggers for the blocade events, as those sometimes fire when they shouldn't (like when GER "Seelioned" all the Home Isles).

Hope that will clear things a bit...

 

[unmerged(13647)]

Sorry if this has been asked someplace else, but if it has I couldn't find it. Playing my first modded game - CORE 0.64 as Germany. The war starts with the Danzig event on Sept 1, 39. About 10 days later I get a CORE event for the Altmark incident and Weserubung - the invasion of Denmark and Norway. Cool, I think. The event says something about secretly preparing for this future operation, and I get a couple of extra transports by choosing to plan for this operation. No date is given on when it's supposed to fire, so I'm clueless on where the event is leading me.

A week or 2 later, another event pops up in which I have to choose whether or not I'm launching Weserubung at that time. I can even include Sweden in the event if I want. Only problem is, it's only mid-September 1939 and my entire army is currently engaged in Poland or on the French border.

I don't guess I understand the way this event works. I don't understand why the Altmark incident happened a few days after I invaded Poland, and I definitely don't understand why the event is forcing me to DOW the countries involved when I'm obviously not prepared and without having given me a date for when my "secret preparations" were going to be ready. Can somebody explain the functionality of this event to me? Are any changes planned to it?
Thanks

 

[Steel]

Regarding blockades - The events are not persistent, so whether or not you reload the game you can still only get a maximum on nine events. As Copper Nicus already pointed out the events are balanced by the Commercial Agreement events, essentially they serve to guide the player along the historical path. If there is no direct effect from the Allied control of the seas then the Commercial Agreement wouldn't make any sense and if you study sources on this you will find that imports from the Soviet Union and trans-shipments via Soviet rail system were critically important.

Regarding Altmark - I don't think I've ever seen the event fire that early but you make a good argument for what needs improvement in that chain, I think I'll make some changes to triggers and event structure for v0.7. Using fixed dates for the operation start is certainly possible but may bring it's own problems.

 

[unmerged(13647)]

Regarding Altmark - I don't think I've ever seen the event fire that early but you make a good argument for what needs improvement in that chain, I think I'll make some changes to triggers and event structure for v0.7. Using fixed dates for the operation start is certainly possible but may bring it's own problems.

FYI as you consider changes: The initial Altmark incident happened Sep 12, 39. The follow-up event to actually DOW Norway/Denmark happened Sep 17, 39.

 

[Steel]

- After a successful visit of Mussolini to the Third Reich I find it strange that Italy would select "file an official complaint against Germany for annexing Austria", I checked it out and it completely moves Italy from 100% facist to 100% democracy, bit of a weird "another" 180 degree shift for Italian politics.... I agree with 2 options, but make the shift towards democracy a lot less dramatic.

- German help to Afghanistan takes 4000 supplies of Germany, can this be set to a LOT less please, I suggest 1000. There was considerable help, but Germany did not devote 50% of it's wartime supplies to Afghanistan.

- I found something that you might better check out yourself, advanced artillery something, a "gold" army tech , requires something like basic artillery radar something, a techno tech, but I was unable to find the techno tech.

Italian policy event and supply effects for both USA and GER events ref. AFG revised for v0.7.

 

[markpalm1]

It's all the matter of modeling tools we have.

So, how can HOI simulate the fact that in FY 38-39 in Germany there was massive deficit spending (expenditure exceeded revenue by 86%) to prepare for war?

 

[JRaup]

It's all the matter of modeling tools we have.

So, how can HOI simulate the fact that in FY 38-39 in Germany there was massive deficit spending (expenditure exceeded revenue by 86%) to prepare for war?

We can't really. events could be used to give dissent, and/or resource hits, but Germany gets enough of those already. Right now, the resource shortages already in are the only thing to do that. As cash isn't a commodity in HoI, it's very hard to get close to any sort of historical budgetary crisis, or manipulation.

 

[markpalm1]

[We can't really. events could be used to give dissent, and/or resource hits, but Germany gets enough of those already. Right now, the resource shortages already in are the only thing to do that. As cash isn't a commodity in HoI, it's very hard to get close to any sort of historical budgetary crisis, or manipulation.]

If it was actually desirable to model this I guess Germany could have a choice in '36 to continue deficit spending and increase IC in provinces, but with a consequence that after war begins IC is lowered below the baseline by more than the previous increase.

 

[markpalm1]

We can't really. events could be used to give dissent, and/or resource hits, but Germany gets enough of those already. Right now, the resource shortages already in are the only thing to do that. As cash isn't a commodity in HoI, it's very hard to get close to any sort of historical budgetary crisis, or manipulation.

Can you simulate partial enigma code breaking by letting the allies see all the axis units?

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Deficit Spending

Markpalm1:

So, how can HOI simulate the fact that in FY 38-39 in Germany there was massive deficit spending (expenditure exceeded revenue by 86%) to prepare for war?

Actually, I think the lower Consumer Goods ratio for the dictatorships does a good job at this. The USA starts off spending only about 20% of its IC for military goods and research while the Germans are much, much higher. In wartime, the gloves come off and rising tensions make enough of a stir that the democracies move to higher WE levels and their CG spending goes down in proportion.