C.O.R.E HOI - Far East (Japan-Nationalist China-ChiCom-Siam-Phillipines)

[Ghost_dk]

Bhutan has events!! Holy crap! How did you find even one for them!?

Well actually its not triggered unless India becomes independent. Following The independence Bhutan went from being a UK dependent nations to being India dependent. Instead of being a UK puppet it becomes a India puppet. :rofl:

Ghost_dk

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I assume Nepal get's this event to? I was wondering, Why doesn't Communist China have claims on the rest of China anymore and why don't either Chinas have claims on Tibet?

 

[unmerged(14683)]

I assume Nepal get's this event to? I was wondering, Why doesn't Communist China have claims on the rest of China anymore and why don't either Chinas have claims on Tibet?

Because Tibet was giving the territory away in no time.

Commies got no claim for the rest of China to avoid militia production (they won't use panic mode) and allow them build infantry instead.

There should still be an event that gives Commies their claims back. Any idea what should trigger that?

PS. About German mission to Tibet - what exactly should be the effect of that? Sorry, but I still see it as "Indy" kind of stuff... So some SS guys traveled to Tibet... And?

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Because Tibet was giving the territory away in no time.

Commies got no claim for the rest of China to avoid militia production (they won't use panic mode) and allow them build infantry instead.

There should still be an event that gives Commies their claims back. Any idea what should trigger that?

PS. About German mission to Tibet - what exactly should be the effect of that? Sorry, but I still see it as "Indy" kind of stuff... So some SS guys traveled to Tibet... And?

The German mission to Tibet should be about German officials meeting with the regent to the Dalai Lama, you don't need to even mention the expedition. The effect is that it influences Tibet to Fascism by a little.

The trigger for Communist China to get claims on Nationalist China should be the capitulation of the Japanese. Too bad the game doesn't go into 1948, then we can have the Chinese Civil War fire up. I think if either China manages to annex Tibet militarily there should be an event that makes it national territory and then make claims on Northern India. This would prevent the AI from making successful territorial claims on Tibet as it is through events and Tibet never does anything all game, unless somebody is playing either of the Chinas and chooses to declare war and annex Tibet.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

The German mission to Tibet should be about German officials meeting with the regent to the Dalai Lama, you don't need to even mention the expedition. The effect is that it influences Tibet to Fascism by a little.

Don't know... I'm really not that eager to see Tibiet joining Axis, even by accident. Tibet = Neutrality.

This would prevent the AI from making successful territorial claims on Tibet as it is through events and Tibet never does anything all game(...)

That's good, all right? Tibet should do nothing.

OMMMMMM... :rofl:

I like the idea of post-war claims though.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

It doesn't need to be much influence. One of the goals of the expedition other then crazy nazi pseudo-religion was trying to get on the good side of Tibet so when war broke out, the Axis had a place to launch an attack on India.

 

[Tormodius]

There should still be an event that gives Commies their claims back. Any idea what should trigger that?

Perhaps the end of the Rising Sun Empire, and end of WW2 ?
Then perhaps Mao will have his day...

 

[JRaup]

The trigger for Communist China to get claims on Nationalist China should be the capitulation of the Japanese. Too bad the game doesn't go into 1948, then we can have the Chinese Civil War fire up. I think if either China manages to annex Tibet militarily there should be an event that makes it national territory and then make claims on Northern India. This would prevent the AI from making successful territorial claims on Tibet as it is through events and Tibet never does anything all game, unless somebody is playing either of the Chinas and chooses to declare war and annex Tibet.

The post-war situation in china needs to be looked at, and worked on a bit. IIRC, Steel had something going along these lines at one point, but I think it got put on the back burner. Still, the whole KMT-Communist in fighting should be in the game somewhere, some how.

What I see is this (in a very general sort of way):
1. Chiang Kai-Chek goes after the Communits. Perhaps several events, similar to the Soviet partisans, that start around late 43, early 44. Chiang several times opted to go after Mao rather than the Japanese, which was part of the friction netween him and Stillwell (a whole other chain to be done).

2. Japanese surrender. The triggers for this are going to be rather difficult, but I believe we can do it right. This event will effectively give control of several Japanese occupied (or Soviet occupied) provinces over to ComChi in Manchuria, and chihli regions. ComChi should get claaims over NatChi and SIK at this point (Tibet comes much later).

3. Chinese Civil war renews. Yes, renews. this is rather complicated, and may hinge on some other events (mainly the Big Three conferences). The KMT launched a massive campaign to retake the communist occupied ones, and did so with Soviet non-interference. It was a communique from the US State Department, and an "order" from Gen. Marshall that stopped chiang from destroying the Communists in Manchuria. The whole relationship between the Soviets and the Western Allies (mainly the US) is going to be a factor. as will corruption with in the KMT, whether or not the Soviets participated in the war against Japan, the status of Germany, status of the US (were they in the Allies or not), and if events such as the Kiri project fired or not.

 

[Tormodius]

Indeed that would be great... What Jraup just told us about the post-war events, could extend this to a cold-war campaign as well.
(if it's possible to prolong the game in any way, it would be even greater)

Soviet and China, among others, could have some events making the Comintern Alliance expand so after the Axis falls it will only be Comintern and the Allies left, both with several members. Would it be possible to pull it of?

 

[JRaup]

Indeed that would be great... What Jraup just told us about the post-war events, could extend this to a cold-war campaign as well.
(if it's possible to prolong the game in any way, it would be even greater)

Soviet and China, among others, could have some events making the Comintern Alliance expand so after the Axis falls it will only be Comintern and the Allies left, both with several members. Would it be possible to pull it of?

it should be, but I'm unsure as to if the game code will allow the game to continue with only two alliances left. That will have to be tested to see what can, and cannot be done for this.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Didn't the Chinese Civil War reignite in 1948?

 

[JRaup]

Didn't the Chinese Civil War reignite in 1948?

"Officially" yes. But there had been a low level conflict that never stopped from 1932 or so on. Even during the Sino-Japanese war 1936-45, the KMT and Communists were going at it. It was one of the things that frustrated Stillwell so much when dealing with Chiang Kai-Chek. Chiang would just as much go after Communists as he would the Japanese. It just took three years or so to get the battle lines drawn porperly. The KMT's campaign into Manchuria was 1946 IIRC, and was stopped before completing teh mission. This allowed Mao time to regroup, rearm (with Japanese and Soviet weapons), and infiltrate cadres across the North. and of course, the usual "incidents" still kept on happening during thsi time.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

So we'll see a low level civil war then where both sides are at war but nothing really outside of events happen?

 

[JRaup]

So we'll see a low level civil war then where both sides are at war but nothing really outside of events happen?

More or less. though I don't think I'd actually have them at war in game. Of course there will be those "B" options to go to a full fledged shooting match. What I see for teh Manchurian expedition is an event series like Nomohon, where there a % chance that a victory for the KMT will happen, and the more likely it gets stopped event. Adds a bit of replay value there, and a player can't bank on things going one way or another.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I was wonderign if the Indonesian revolts will be put into the game. Here's a brief timetable. On October 14, 1945 Indonesian nationalists declared war on the Dutch. On October 31st Allied troops mobilise on Java after a British brigadier is killed while negotiating with nationalist rebels. On June 29th President Ahmed Sukarno declares war on the Dutch in a bid for full autonomy. July 27th 1947, Dutch troops launch an offensive against Indonesian nationalists in Eastern Java.

 

[JRaup]

I was wonderign if the Indonesian revolts will be put into the game. Here's a brief timetable. On October 14, 1945 Indonesian nationalists declared war on the Dutch. On October 31st Allied troops mobilise on Java after a British brigadier is killed while negotiating with nationalist rebels. On June 29th President Ahmed Sukarno declares war on the Dutch in a bid for full autonomy. July 27th 1947, Dutch troops launch an offensive against Indonesian nationalists in Eastern Java.

Post war revolts and nations are still being discussed, but have been set aside to get the compatibility stuff back in order. In fact, the whole post-war world still needs to be worked on. IIRC, OHGamer (I think) had some ideas and such along these lines. They might be here on an earlier page, or in some back discussions on the wiki.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Italy should have the city of Tientsin under it's control. They've had it since 1902 as a colony. The Italians had 447, 467m in China around the city of Tientsin along with a garisson of soldiers and the Far East Naval Command consisting of the gunboats Lepanto and Carlotto under Cdr. Galletti. A good description of the Italian prescence in the Far East is this site.

 

[JRaup]

Italy should have the city of Tientsin under it's control. They've had it since 1902 as a colony. The Italians had 447, 467m in China around the city of Tientsin along with a garisson of soldiers and the Far East Naval Command consisting of the gunboats Lepanto and Carlotto under Cdr. Galletti. A good description of the Italian prescence in the Far East is this site.

Ummm...no. Tientsin was a Chinese city, that had concessions to foreign powers. The Americans, British, French, Italians (1868 on), Germans (1870 on), Austrians, Russians, Dutch, Spanish, and Japanese (from 1880 on-Increased after Russo-Japanese War), all had areas under their national jurisdiction up to 1918. After Verseilles, German and Austrian holdings in China were transferred to the Japanese. Italian adventures in China were anything but successfull (excluding the Allied Punative expeditions 1900-1904). While I'm sure the Italians like to consider thier three buildings in Tientsin a "colony," it was anything but. It was a glorified trade mission. Of course most of the major powers maintained some sort of military presence in China following the Boxer Rebellion. the US had two infantry regiments, a marine detatchment, and the various riverine patrols, as did the British and French. Japan maintained the largest presence of course.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Are you sure three buildings? According to this site. it was much more then that.

EDIT: On second though (and finding I mixed up m with km) The Italian holdings in China where minimal although they did have a prescence within the city. I'm not sure how they could model this in the game. The actual province is pretty small in HoI terms, but I don't think small enough for the Italians to control it, though they probably could

 

[JRaup]

Are you sure three buildings? According to this site. it was much more then that.

EDIT: On second though (and finding I mixed up m with km) The Italian holdings in China where minimal although they did have a prescence within the city. I'm not sure how they could model this in the game. The actual province is pretty small in HoI terms, but I don't think small enough for the Italians to control it, though they probably could

Ayup, three building still, even at 400,000 m square. the buildings in question were the Italian Consulate (large building/compound, included the residences for the consular staff), Italian customs Bureau (moderate sized, also had offices for most Italian companies doing business in China), and the Italian Trade mission (smallish in realtive terms, also housed several businessess as well as judicial offices). Even so, this was still smaller than either the American or British concessions, or the Japanese presence. The city was dominated by the British after the Boxer Revolt, and held more control through the Imperial Maritime Customs Bureau, later the Excise Bureau of the Chinese Republic. Even with all these concessions, 80% of Tientsin was under Chinese control and authority. the major powers all held "rights of intervention" resulting from the Treaties of 1904-05. thus each power maintained some sort of military presence. In Tientsin alone, there were Italians, British, French, American, Japanese, Russian (to 1905), German (to 1919), Austrian (to 1918), and even Spanish (to 1912) forces, and more across China. even with such a miliatry presence, and "treaty rights," it was rare after 1905 that foreign forces actively intervened in China. with the advent of the sino-Japanese war in 1936, most of those reamining were withdrawn from China, though the great bulk had been reduced in the late 1920's. The situation in Tientsin was very unlike what was going on in Hong Kong or Macao, which were ceded territories. Tientsin, Shanghai, Ningbo, and the other treaty ports were not ceded to any foreign power, but at times were occupied and administered by foreigners.