C.O.R.E HOI - Far East (Japan-Nationalist China-ChiCom-Siam-Phillipines)

[unmerged(15066)]

Chinese Floods

I'm scripting a series of natural disaster events. There were enormous floods in China during 1937 and 1938 which killed 500,000 people each. I'm blegging here to see if anyone has additional information on these floods with respect to: when they occurred, which provinces were the hardest hit, or any notable local color.

 

[Steel]

Re: Chinese Floods

Originally posted by Engineer
I'm scripting a series of natural disaster events. There were enormous floods in China during 1937 and 1938 which killed 500,000 people each. I'm blegging here to see if anyone has additional information on these floods with respect to: when they occurred, which provinces were the hardest hit, or any notable local color.

I don't have anything on natural disasters, I was focusing on the damage caused intentionally.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Some googled research suggests that the '37 flood was "natural" and was located in the Yangtze and Yellow river basins.

This could be simulated easily with the disaster template that I've used elsewhere.

The '38 flood was at least partially intentional due to the Nationalists blowing the levees on the Yellow River.

That puts a whole 'nother spin on it. The triggers now need to have war between Japan and China and Nationalist control of the province to be flooded. I would suspect that the supplemental effect of this deliberate flooding, with the huge civilian casualities, would probably be at least some backlash against the nationalists and a radicalization of the people (more communist alignment). However, I would also believe that those were almost certainly unexpected consequences so the script should probably be more elaborate to conceal those adverse consequences from a player (at least the first time) by putting them in a subsequent event.

Further, the flooding option should probably stay there for the duration of the war, only being precluded by Japanese occupation of the lower Yellow River valley, peace, or a Chinese player who elects not to do it.

 

[jdrou]

Engineer: Have you looked at the existing CORE events for the 1938 flood? They are 522012 & 522013 in core_NChina.txt.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Thanks, I took a look at those.

Steel, I really like directly effecting the manpower level for big population hits. I do have two concerns and one recommendation, however.

The first is the absolute level of permanent damage. 15 infrastructure and two IC is 17 years worth of repairs. Is that appropriate for the IRL level of devastation?

The second is how much info to give the NatChi player in making his decision to blow the dykes. The event ground rules say you shouldn't blindside players, but unintended consequences are all over the place in war. In this case, I think there is a case to split out the civilian casualities and political fall-out to a subsequent event shortly after the dykes are blown. However, if there is evidence that massive civilian casualities were known to be the consequence going in, then I would withdraw this suggestion.

The recommendation is to include a small alignment change toward communism in the event. By murdering so many subjects in the course to opposing the Japanese, this act could hardly but have improved the legitimacy of the Communists in these provinces and those areas which knew about the floods.

 

[McNaughton]

US manpower

oops, wrong thread

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by Engineer
The first is the absolute level of permanent damage. 15 infrastructure and two IC is 17 years worth of repairs. Is that appropriate for the IRL level of devastation?

Infra is restored in the event "The Chengchow Flooding subsides". BTW, infra upgrades are 10 points not 1 point It just takes a while for the current infra to reach max infra.

The second is how much info to give the NatChi player in making his decision to blow the dykes.

I'm quite happy leaving the description and effects as is, IMHO it was a deliberate act with consequences that were well understood (seasonal flooding is common in China).


Regarding the alignment change, one of my projects is the continuation of the Chinese civil war. It didn't make v0.6 but will eventually be included and the event chain will include specific provinces rising up against KMT due to their actions in earlier years. In other words, the Chinese player will have a choice of slowing the Japanese player now and facing a strong ComChi once Japan is defeated or leaving the dikes intact, thus facing a fast Japanese advance but limiting future Communist insurrection in the area.

 

[Steel]

Re: US manpower

Originally posted by McNaughton
oops, wrong thread

Yes

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Chengchow Floods

Ok.

After I finish the US strike series, there are a series of Asian natural disaster "color" events that I'll script: a 1936 typhoon in Hong Kong, the '37 flood in China, some typhoons in the Bay of Bengal, and the 1942 drought in India.

 

[Steel]

Chinese transport aircraft

IMHO the Chinese transport plane unit is a trap for the Chinese AI, acting as a supply drain (reinforcement needed at start) and an oil/supply drain on a daily basis. It adds nothing to their ability to conduct the war.

Any opinions on removing it from the OOB and optionally adding it back in via events at some point?

 

[JRaup]

Re: Chinese transport aircraft

Originally posted by Steel
IMHO the Chinese transport plane unit is a trap for the Chinese AI, acting as a supply drain (reinforcement needed at start) and an oil/supply drain on a daily basis. It adds nothing to their ability to conduct the war.

Any opinions on removing it from the OOB and optionally adding it back in via events at some point?

Why do they have a transport unit? Is it suppose to represent those aircraft that flew supplies from Burma and India? If so, they can certainly live without it. and I don't recall there being a unit of chinese paratroopers anywhere either.

 

[Steel]

Re: Re: Chinese transport aircraft

Originally posted by JRaup
Why do they have a transport unit? Is it suppose to represent those aircraft that flew supplies from Burma and India? If so, they can certainly live without it. and I don't recall there being a unit of chinese paratroopers anywhere either.

German Ju-52 IIRC, much like Boeing today.

 

[donkeysaint]

Edit: Damn, this should have gone in the general thread. Ignore this one... (edited out and posted in the correct thread)

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Chinese Transport

I would vote to remove it.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Japanese Coast Artillery

Ran across something while surfing today. This is 1946 US report on Japanese coast and AA artillery. I'm backed up with other stuff right now, but if someone is ambitious they might want to double check the province file for coastal forts versus this report.
It looks like Tokyo Bay had some major defenses (2x300 mm guns, 4x250 mm guns, 4x200 mm guns, 12x150 mm guns, and 10x280 mm howitzers).

Also there are some maps (see page 122) which show that the Japanese had guns mounted on Kyushu and Pusan, along with islands in between so that they essentially commanded every mile of the sea lanes between Japan and Korea with direct large caliber fire. That might mean looking at some changes to make the strait there "closed" in the same sense that Gibraltar or the Sound only permit hostile submarine transit.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=726

I'd give this just about the highest reliability - it's a digitized copy of the original typewritten report compiled early in the US occupation.

 

[Steel]

Re: Japanese Coast Artillery

Originally posted by Engineer
Ran across something while surfing today. This is 1946 US report on Japanese coast and AA artillery. I'm backed up with other stuff right now, but if someone is ambitious they might want to double check the province file for coastal forts versus this report.
It looks like Tokyo Bay had some major defenses (2x300 mm guns, 4x250 mm guns, 4x200 mm guns, 12x150 mm guns, and 10x280 mm howitzers).

Also there are some maps (see page 122) which show that the Japanese had guns mounted on Kyushu and Pusan, along with islands in between so that they essentially commanded every mile of the sea lanes between Japan and Korea with direct large caliber fire. That might mean looking at some changes to make the strait there "closed" in the same sense that Gibraltar or the Sound only permit hostile submarine transit.

http://www.carlisle.army.mil/cgi-bin/usamhi/DL/showdoc.pl?docnum=726

I'd give this just about the highest reliability - it's a digitized copy of the original typewritten report compiled early in the US occupation.

I'll study the report, but if the emplacements were not there in 1936 then they'll have to be constructed normally (ie province upgrades) or maybe by event if they were very significant.

About six months ago I submitted an extensive list of naval chokepoints to Paradox, the response was that no additional chokepoints will be added. While it's a little frustrating that the game is so Euro-centric, in retrospect I don't particularly miss the chokepoints since there is some issues with them.

 

[unmerged(15066)]

Ok, thanks. I only skimmed the summary and some of the figures (it's over 200 pages) but the text for Tokyo does distinguish the pre-war fortifications from the wartime construction. Most of the defenses date from the 20's when armament from cancelled warships (Washington Treaty) was put into land emplacements.

 

[EUIX]

Japan might need a little boost. They hardly even make any men. There are 60-80 divisons the whole time while Nationalist China has about 200. They end up taking northeastern china then just stopping.

 

[Steel]

Originally posted by EUIX
Japan might need a little boost. They hardly even make any men. There are 60-80 divisons the whole time while Nationalist China has about 200. They end up taking northeastern china then just stopping.

Actually they just got two major boosts but it fails to make a difference There's two AI issues at play here:

1 - The front AI settings are not taken into consideration for amphib assault odds calculations. Need some tweaking for where the AI should attack.


2 - The front AI tries to build a super-stack against ComChi (normally 20-30 divisions minimum). This leads to a front collapse against NatChi. Again I need to tweak the AI.

 

[EUIX]

Just a general question anyone know why the Chinese names got changed in the new patch from Pin-yin to the old Wade-Giles spelling? Historical accuracy? (due to the fact pinyin didn't exist then).

Also, Japan seems to take Malay Pennisula more often as well as the Solomn islands but in my U.S. game I left Guam undefend yet they didn't do anything, as well the islands were unmanned. Vietnam once going to Japan gets waxed by Nationalist China. What was the reasoning for taking out Communist China's terroritorial claims? Read something about preventing too much milita build-up in the scenario file. Why leave Taiwan as claimed though?