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Re: Re: Siam
Why is china a puppet all the time anyway? (as I posted allready somewhere else) It may be historical but its a very bad idea for japan. As I observed in a couple games japan end up with less provinces as it started, including manchuco (sp?) puppet/ inner mogolia and some others.
Bad idea!
Japan is weak as it is, with china as puppet (historical? prolly) its no more then a itally with a tad more techs at hand.
History may be good in some times, but in this game Japan has a hard time standing up against USA.
I remember seeing that Bolt even let Japan annex manchuco to have more resources (made sense) and to avoid the supply problem (what is fixed now).
I admit I didnt play japan myself lately..is there a option to not make china a puppet?
As it is and if I play germany i tend to NOT ally myself with japan or SU will annex it very soon.
The AI even doesnt build up the iles IC (marshalls etc) prewar. When I had a look at it in 43 they all had 1 ic on them. /bonk
Rethink this pls.
Originally posted by Generalisimo
We could add 2 or 3 VP to Siam provinces...
One question, have you seen this frequently? because in my last two tests, Siam holded the front as much as they can, then Japan signed the Kiri Project and voila!! no front between Japan and UK... instead of that, China and Siam now must hold that front... we must create a fascist AI for China when they become Japan puppet...
Why is china a puppet all the time anyway? (as I posted allready somewhere else) It may be historical but its a very bad idea for japan. As I observed in a couple games japan end up with less provinces as it started, including manchuco (sp?) puppet/ inner mogolia and some others.
Bad idea!
Japan is weak as it is, with china as puppet (historical? prolly) its no more then a itally with a tad more techs at hand.
History may be good in some times, but in this game Japan has a hard time standing up against USA.
I remember seeing that Bolt even let Japan annex manchuco to have more resources (made sense) and to avoid the supply problem (what is fixed now).
I admit I didnt play japan myself lately..is there a option to not make china a puppet?
As it is and if I play germany i tend to NOT ally myself with japan or SU will annex it very soon.
The AI even doesnt build up the iles IC (marshalls etc) prewar. When I had a look at it in 43 they all had 1 ic on them. /bonk
Rethink this pls.
Sino-Japan event(idea)
Hello, I'm enjoying playing C.O.R.E v0.532
In my previous Italian game, Japan chose to back down at Marco Polo Bridge Incident(id 492028). This settled the Sino-Japan situation for good. I think it's better if there are further ahistorical events to represent Japanese setback and Chinese reunion.
The list below is my rough idea:
1. Japan surrender Manchuria and withdraw
Innner Mongolia, Manchukoa and occupied China are ceded to Nat China.
(except Dalian, Taihoku and Takao as these territoriess are officialy leased by Qing)
Japanese emigrants and investments evacuate to Korea or Mainland Japan
(industry and manpower transfer)
Chaos hit Japan(high dissent, Cabinet Assasination, leader execution, riot(temporary IC reduction) etc.)
Comment:
Chinese aggresion prior to Sino-Japan war was fierce. They didn't attack local Japanese garrison. Instead, they attacked citizen, raping and killing many. Chinese police did nothing because victims were Japanese. As Japanese garrison were forbidden to open warfare, they couldn't interfere.
I don't know whether or not Marco Polo Bridge Incident was proy of IJA, but this was one reason they decided to begin offensive. If Japan chose to settle matter for fear of wrath of western powers (id 492028 option B), they had no choice but surrender to protect their citizens' life in the end.
Of course, Japanese occupation of Machuria wasn't good. But CHN's barbaric acts (like scuttering cut breasts and groins) weren't good, either...
2. Chiang became confident, and bowed to unite China
Break alliance with Mao(CHC) and start war again
Add Macao and Hong Kong (and Tibet?) to CHI's national province
Comment:
Now JAP(LC) possibly moves toward democratic and CHI(PA) possibly moves toward fascism, it won't hurt anyone if Macao and Hong Kong are added to CHI's core provinces. Besides, these are leased territories, too.
3. UK must decide whether or not they would help Japanese democracy and ecomy
yearly rubber(and oil) exports to Japan by ENG
yearly coal and steel exports to Japan by AUS
yearly oil and steel exports and industrization (IC addition) by USA
These helps have side effect on Japanese diplomatic tendency
(Previously referred at USA-Japan trade idea by Ghost_dk)
Comment:
UK was formar Japanese alliance partner. She expected Japan to prevent Russian expansion in the far east. Maybe they wouldn't like Japanese collapse when they tried to befriend with western power again. Besides, Japanese military strength(especially navy founded under English instruction) was invaluable if the need arose.
Thus she has choice. If UK don't help Japanese democratic governance, Japan move toward fascism again(A coup establish PA government?). May be it'll result in German-Italy-Chinese-Japanese pact.
If UK help Japanese democratic governance and industrization, UK may sign alliance with Japan later to stand against the Axis and Comintern. There may be option to lease DEI under Japanese protection after Netherland Europe provinces fall.
-----
I know these ahistorical turn of events need much work (especially alternative CHI and JAP AI). But it'll be fun to see alternate history.
Sorry for interruption
Hello, I'm enjoying playing C.O.R.E v0.532
In my previous Italian game, Japan chose to back down at Marco Polo Bridge Incident(id 492028). This settled the Sino-Japan situation for good. I think it's better if there are further ahistorical events to represent Japanese setback and Chinese reunion.
The list below is my rough idea:
1. Japan surrender Manchuria and withdraw
Innner Mongolia, Manchukoa and occupied China are ceded to Nat China.
(except Dalian, Taihoku and Takao as these territoriess are officialy leased by Qing)
Japanese emigrants and investments evacuate to Korea or Mainland Japan
(industry and manpower transfer)
Chaos hit Japan(high dissent, Cabinet Assasination, leader execution, riot(temporary IC reduction) etc.)
Comment:
Chinese aggresion prior to Sino-Japan war was fierce. They didn't attack local Japanese garrison. Instead, they attacked citizen, raping and killing many. Chinese police did nothing because victims were Japanese. As Japanese garrison were forbidden to open warfare, they couldn't interfere.
I don't know whether or not Marco Polo Bridge Incident was proy of IJA, but this was one reason they decided to begin offensive. If Japan chose to settle matter for fear of wrath of western powers (id 492028 option B), they had no choice but surrender to protect their citizens' life in the end.
Of course, Japanese occupation of Machuria wasn't good. But CHN's barbaric acts (like scuttering cut breasts and groins) weren't good, either...
2. Chiang became confident, and bowed to unite China
Break alliance with Mao(CHC) and start war again
Add Macao and Hong Kong (and Tibet?) to CHI's national province
Comment:
Now JAP(LC) possibly moves toward democratic and CHI(PA) possibly moves toward fascism, it won't hurt anyone if Macao and Hong Kong are added to CHI's core provinces. Besides, these are leased territories, too.
3. UK must decide whether or not they would help Japanese democracy and ecomy
yearly rubber(and oil) exports to Japan by ENG
yearly coal and steel exports to Japan by AUS
yearly oil and steel exports and industrization (IC addition) by USA
These helps have side effect on Japanese diplomatic tendency
(Previously referred at USA-Japan trade idea by Ghost_dk)
Comment:
UK was formar Japanese alliance partner. She expected Japan to prevent Russian expansion in the far east. Maybe they wouldn't like Japanese collapse when they tried to befriend with western power again. Besides, Japanese military strength(especially navy founded under English instruction) was invaluable if the need arose.
Thus she has choice. If UK don't help Japanese democratic governance, Japan move toward fascism again(A coup establish PA government?). May be it'll result in German-Italy-Chinese-Japanese pact.
If UK help Japanese democratic governance and industrization, UK may sign alliance with Japan later to stand against the Axis and Comintern. There may be option to lease DEI under Japanese protection after Netherland Europe provinces fall.
-----
I know these ahistorical turn of events need much work (especially alternative CHI and JAP AI). But it'll be fun to see alternate history.
Sorry for interruption
Re: Re: Re: Siam
Hmm, no It's actually an excellent idea which reduces Japanese need for garrisons and frees up their forces for combat elsewhere. When Japan occupies China, they get only 25% or 33% of the IC (and all resources). As China doesn't have that much IC to start with it doesn't make a huge difference. As a puppet state, China still gives up almost all resources. In v0.6 there's some events to improve the amount of industry resource that China get's from the puppeting as well.
Different design goals - if you want to annex Manchukuo you can do it, but it's not historical and history is what C.O.R.E. is about. We could put in any number of quick-fixes to "guide" the game, but IMHO it would not make it any better.
Yes. In almost all events which relate to annexation or puppetting, there's a B choice. That's one of the basic design goals of C.O.R.E. - always give an option
In the next release of C.O.R.E. there has been heavy re-design of Far East, with some increased benefits for Japan in the puppetting of China as well as a number of events that affect Japanese politics, industry levels, manpower etc. Overall there's about 85 new events relating to the Far East.
Thanks for the feedback
Hmm, no
It's actually an excellent idea which reduces Japanese need for garrisons and frees up their forces for combat elsewhere. When Japan occupies China, they get only 25% or 33% of the IC (and all resources). As China doesn't have that much IC to start with it doesn't make a huge difference. As a puppet state, China still gives up almost all resources. In v0.6 there's some events to improve the amount of industry resource that China get's from the puppeting as well.Different design goals - if you want to annex Manchukuo you can do it, but it's not historical and history is what C.O.R.E. is about. We could put in any number of quick-fixes to "guide" the game, but IMHO it would not make it any better.
Yes. In almost all events which relate to annexation or puppetting, there's a B choice. That's one of the basic design goals of C.O.R.E. - always give an option
In the next release of C.O.R.E. there has been heavy re-design of Far East, with some increased benefits for Japan in the puppetting of China as well as a number of events that affect Japanese politics, industry levels, manpower etc. Overall there's about 85 new events relating to the Far East.
Thanks for the feedback
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Re: Sino-Japan event(idea)
The US-Japan trade events are in v0.6.
Resumption of the Chinese Civil War is not done yet but it's high on the priority list (just after Korean Independence and Civil War, which is 80% complete already).
Alternate history events for Japanese surrender of Manchukuo (which would require the breaking of the power of the IJA) is not in and it is fairly low priority (ie first I must finish making the historical progression of war work out ok). However, the ground work is there as in v0.6 the Japanese internal politics (2-2-6 Incident, the Kodoha, the rapid succession of governments, the war laws etc) are included. At some point I will be able to extend that into wider ahistorical options.
Alternate AI files for ahistorical outcomes are also fairly low on the priority list. I certainly want to have a japan_allied.ai and a japan_comintern.ai but not before the basic four AI files are much better than they are now.
Thanks for the feedback
The US-Japan trade events are in v0.6.
Resumption of the Chinese Civil War is not done yet but it's high on the priority list (just after Korean Independence and Civil War, which is 80% complete already).
Alternate history events for Japanese surrender of Manchukuo (which would require the breaking of the power of the IJA) is not in and it is fairly low priority (ie first I must finish making the historical progression of war work out ok). However, the ground work is there as in v0.6 the Japanese internal politics (2-2-6 Incident, the Kodoha, the rapid succession of governments, the war laws etc) are included. At some point I will be able to extend that into wider ahistorical options.
Alternate AI files for ahistorical outcomes are also fairly low on the priority list. I certainly want to have a japan_allied.ai and a japan_comintern.ai but not before the basic four AI files are much better than they are now.
Thanks for the feedback
Panay Follow-up
I got the main line of events scripted and firing, but I would like some feedback. First some research:
1) The US had two regiments of troops on the ground in China enforcing the Open Door, the 15th Infantry in Tianjin and the 4th Marines in Shanghai.
2) The CO of the Japanese troops storming Nanjing was Prince Asaka, Hirohito's uncle.
3) The Japanese had no deniability about the Panay. US correspondents on the gunboat caught the whole thing on film.
Initial Event Tree:
Japs React to attack:
A: Apologize (historical)
B: Demand US withdraw from China
US Choices if Japs choose A
C: Accept Apology
D: Recall Ambassador
US Choices if Japs choose B
D: Recall Ambassador
E: Send aid to China
F: Recall troops
JAP Choices if US choose D
G: Recall Prince in disgrace
H: Recall Prince and have general commit seppuku
JAP Choices if US choose E
G: Recall Prince in disgrace
I: "Intern" US garrisons in China (some fighting, GIs die)
JAP result if US choose F
J: Big party, Japan gets big influence boost and dissent suppression.
US choices if JAP choose I
F: Concede and get troops out of internment
K: Cold war with Japan (trigger oil embargo) troops remain in Japanese camps.
L: Ally with China and enter war against Japan
US result if JAP chooses G or H
M: Medium party as US wins a diplomatic victory over Japan.
Now, I am reluctant to let the AI get the US into war, but the odds on the cumulative decisions getting there are over 50,000:1. The most likely result remains the historical result (Japanese apology, US Accepts) at about 75%-80%.
Questions:
1) Should I drop Option L simply to prevent any long-odds result of this event sending the USA to war?
2) Should I tweak things to save Japanese face instead of making Prince Asaka the fall guy for this?
3) This sort of crisis would play out over weeks. Does HOI let you put in the Date/Offset/Deathdate sequence of commands so there is a randomized interval between triggered events?
Thanks
I got the main line of events scripted and firing, but I would like some feedback. First some research:
1) The US had two regiments of troops on the ground in China enforcing the Open Door, the 15th Infantry in Tianjin and the 4th Marines in Shanghai.
2) The CO of the Japanese troops storming Nanjing was Prince Asaka, Hirohito's uncle.
3) The Japanese had no deniability about the Panay. US correspondents on the gunboat caught the whole thing on film.
Initial Event Tree:
Japs React to attack:
A: Apologize (historical)
B: Demand US withdraw from China
US Choices if Japs choose A
C: Accept Apology
D: Recall Ambassador
US Choices if Japs choose B
D: Recall Ambassador
E: Send aid to China
F: Recall troops
JAP Choices if US choose D
G: Recall Prince in disgrace
H: Recall Prince and have general commit seppuku
JAP Choices if US choose E
G: Recall Prince in disgrace
I: "Intern" US garrisons in China (some fighting, GIs die)
JAP result if US choose F
J: Big party, Japan gets big influence boost and dissent suppression.
US choices if JAP choose I
F: Concede and get troops out of internment
K: Cold war with Japan (trigger oil embargo) troops remain in Japanese camps.
L: Ally with China and enter war against Japan
US result if JAP chooses G or H
M: Medium party as US wins a diplomatic victory over Japan.
Now, I am reluctant to let the AI get the US into war, but the odds on the cumulative decisions getting there are over 50,000:1. The most likely result remains the historical result (Japanese apology, US Accepts) at about 75%-80%.
Questions:
1) Should I drop Option L simply to prevent any long-odds result of this event sending the USA to war?
2) Should I tweak things to save Japanese face instead of making Prince Asaka the fall guy for this?
3) This sort of crisis would play out over weeks. Does HOI let you put in the Date/Offset/Deathdate sequence of commands so there is a randomized interval between triggered events?
Thanks
Re: Panay Follow-up
My opinion
1 - Make it a +12 for USA war entry and an event for China where they receive a few thousand supplies and one infantry division of American "volunteer" troops and one fighter division, plus a couple of light air and infantry techs.
2 - It's fine in your proposal.
3 - Yes. Use something like this:
Event 1:
date = X
offset = 30
deathdate = X + 60
Event 2:
trigger = { event 1 }
date = X
offset = 60
deathdate = X + 180
My opinion
1 - Make it a +12 for USA war entry and an event for China where they receive a few thousand supplies and one infantry division of American "volunteer" troops and one fighter division, plus a couple of light air and infantry techs.
2 - It's fine in your proposal.
3 - Yes. Use something like this:
Event 1:
date = X
offset = 30
deathdate = X + 60
Event 2:
trigger = { event 1 }
date = X
offset = 60
deathdate = X + 180
If Indonesia is Netherland at start of scenario, when Germany take it European part, and if Japan go in and take Netherland Indonesia, it can annex Netherland, and then get Curacao and Dutch Gvayana, and whit deploy troops on your territory, as player it is too good to not be exploited as you can in a sec deploy Japanese armies, ships, subbmarines, air forces in Americas.
Thanks, good ideas. This will be a pretty long string of events (especially the little ones bringing the US forces out of China on the historical timetable (putting MP back into the US pool) and some trophy events if war hits when they're still there so the Japanese get some 'trophy' POWs). I'll probably e-mail it to you. It will have dummy event numbers in it so I can debug the code that will need to be cleaned up on your end.
Watch out the for the "China Legion"!
Watch out the for the "China Legion"!
No problem, send them to steel@melachea.demon.co.uk and also to Generalisimo. Please zip the file(s), email transport does nasty things to text (a source of problems in the past).
Re: Panay Follow-up
I think that it isn't very different than the French declaring war over the occupation of the Rhineland event. It doesn't have a large chance of happening (and this would be even smaller), but it does have a historical chance. We have been complaining that the US and Japan never go to war, but this would add another way for that to happen, just quite a bit earlier. Just my two cents worth. MDow
I think that it isn't very different than the French declaring war over the occupation of the Rhineland event. It doesn't have a large chance of happening (and this would be even smaller), but it does have a historical chance. We have been complaining that the US and Japan never go to war, but this would add another way for that to happen, just quite a bit earlier. Just my two cents worth. MDow
Peace Move of Trautmann
Thx for the reply, Steel. As Japanese withdrawel from Manchikuo was quite unlikely turn of event, I'll stick on historical events for the time being.
As I couldn't get new nomonhan.txt(the file was already deleted?), lookthrough was made upon v0.532.
There was peace negotiation between Japan and NC prior to Kiri Project. It was 'Peace Move of Trautmann' or 'Trautmann Project' in English?
If any of you can read Japanese or have some translation software, this webpage would be quite helpful.
URL: http://www3.kiwi-us.com/~ingle/topix-2/trautmann_oskar.html
Rough summary:
1. The negotiation for peace between Japan and NC was mediated by Germany.
(Germany wanted both NC and Japan for ally to oppose Stalin)
2. The first conditions were handed to Germany on Nov 2, 1937.
This included recognition of Inner Mongolia etc. Lack of consideration of military achievements were noted later(Japan won decisive victory against NC at the first stage of war).
3. NC received it on Nov 12. NC replied they basically accepted it on Dec 12.
4. As this negotiation was privately conducted by Foreign Minister Hirota and the General Staff Office(!), Japan couldn't respond immediatly...
5. Japanese cabinets refused to accept the first conditions. On Dec 21, the second conditions were decided.
This included recognition of Manchukuo, installation of demilitarized zones, admittion of IJA stationed in certaion Chinese provinces, and ideological clauses(anti-Comintern etc)
6. The second conditions were handed to Germany on Dec 22. CN received it on Dec 26. CN wanted to hear details. Request was sent to Japan.
7. Hirota angered at CN's responce. He proposed cancel of negotiation to cabinet, and accepted.
8. On Jan 15, 1938 Prime Minister Konoe announced cancel of negotiation.
Result: Sino-Japan war continued. NC lost German support completely.
I'll look for Kiri Project later, too.
BTW, CN presented its case to conference of Brussels repeatedly(USA 322034 event was one of their achievement). In 1938, CN presented Japanese bombing and use of poisonous gas. But CN didn't presented Nanking masacre. Quite funny, indeed.
The first reference to the incident was made at trial of Tokyo. Ie: before trial of Tokyo, Nanking masacre incident was not existed. Thus, in my opinion, implement of Nanking masacre incident was questionable(historical Panay incident in C.O.R.E is enough).
Please regard.
Thx for the reply, Steel. As Japanese withdrawel from Manchikuo was quite unlikely turn of event, I'll stick on historical events for the time being.
As I couldn't get new nomonhan.txt(the file was already deleted?), lookthrough was made upon v0.532.
There was peace negotiation between Japan and NC prior to Kiri Project. It was 'Peace Move of Trautmann' or 'Trautmann Project' in English?
If any of you can read Japanese or have some translation software, this webpage would be quite helpful.
URL: http://www3.kiwi-us.com/~ingle/topix-2/trautmann_oskar.html
Rough summary:
1. The negotiation for peace between Japan and NC was mediated by Germany.
(Germany wanted both NC and Japan for ally to oppose Stalin)
2. The first conditions were handed to Germany on Nov 2, 1937.
This included recognition of Inner Mongolia etc. Lack of consideration of military achievements were noted later(Japan won decisive victory against NC at the first stage of war).
3. NC received it on Nov 12. NC replied they basically accepted it on Dec 12.
4. As this negotiation was privately conducted by Foreign Minister Hirota and the General Staff Office(!), Japan couldn't respond immediatly...
5. Japanese cabinets refused to accept the first conditions. On Dec 21, the second conditions were decided.
This included recognition of Manchukuo, installation of demilitarized zones, admittion of IJA stationed in certaion Chinese provinces, and ideological clauses(anti-Comintern etc)
6. The second conditions were handed to Germany on Dec 22. CN received it on Dec 26. CN wanted to hear details. Request was sent to Japan.
7. Hirota angered at CN's responce. He proposed cancel of negotiation to cabinet, and accepted.
8. On Jan 15, 1938 Prime Minister Konoe announced cancel of negotiation.
Result: Sino-Japan war continued. NC lost German support completely.
I'll look for Kiri Project later, too.
BTW, CN presented its case to conference of Brussels repeatedly(USA 322034 event was one of their achievement). In 1938, CN presented Japanese bombing and use of poisonous gas. But CN didn't presented Nanking masacre. Quite funny, indeed.
The first reference to the incident was made at trial of Tokyo. Ie: before trial of Tokyo, Nanking masacre incident was not existed. Thus, in my opinion, implement of Nanking masacre incident was questionable(historical Panay incident in C.O.R.E is enough).
Please regard.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Siam
no thx for the inside! hehe and thank U for answering
That cleared some things up for me and it makes sense now!
Originally posted by Steel
Hmm, no
Different design goals - if you want to annex Manchukuo you can do it, but it's not historical and history is what C.O.R.E. is about. We could put in any number of quick-fixes to "guide" the game, but IMHO it would not make it any better.
[/b]
Yes. In almost all events which relate to annexation or puppetting, there's a B choice. That's one of the basic design goals of C.O.R.E. - always give an option
[/b]
In the next release of C.O.R.E. there has been heavy re-design of Far East, with some increased benefits for Japan in the puppetting of China as well as a number of events that affect Japanese politics, industry levels, manpower etc. Overall there's about 85 new events relating to the Far East.
Thanks for the feedback
no thx for the inside! hehe and thank U for answering
That cleared some things up for me and it makes sense now!
found a ctd issue while playing NC
it is aug. 13. '41 no war with japan happend. (sadly)
Italy surrendered
Last event happening was: Germany disarms Italian army (gemany was unable to get paris and english troops came from the south after takeing IT's africa provinces)
I hear the sound when a event is about to pop up or building done on IC/Defenses ,but then I get a ctd.
If somebody could point me to it or give me directions what to look for I may be able to fix it on my own. (even tho I am bored with NC and no war )
I have a look at NC events now but I am not so sure I can see the problem even if its right befor me.
thx
Szun
it is aug. 13. '41 no war with japan happend. (sadly)
Italy surrendered
Last event happening was: Germany disarms Italian army (gemany was unable to get paris and english troops came from the south after takeing IT's africa provinces)
I hear the sound when a event is about to pop up or building done on IC/Defenses ,but then I get a ctd.
If somebody could point me to it or give me directions what to look for I may be able to fix it on my own. (even tho I am bored with NC and no war
)I have a look at NC events now but I am not so sure I can see the problem even if its right befor me.
thx
Szun
Nanking Massacre
Nanking Massacre
I cancel the request of removal of Nanking Massacre as I found report of Naking incident(such as below). Sorry for the incovinience I brought to the readers.
URL: http://prion.bchs.uh.edu/~zzhang/1/Nanking_Massacre/report.html
Though the dscription seemed not fit. As the report stated, it was true IJA killed war prisoners and suspects(CN and CI soldiers often disguised themselves in civil which was prohibited by international law. It is difficult to tell apart soldier from civilian and tends to result in suffuring of civilian) in mass.
IJA's ration was scarce(CN didn't have enough, too). It is said that for fear of starved captives' revolt, order was given to kill them all. Awful...
But mass rape and death of civilian after the battle? It wasn't reported. I had no doubt that many civils were killed and some raped like any other urban battle's result(it's bad but truth which continued up to now). But systematic execution of civil was largely exaggerated statement used for anti-Japan propaganda later.
My conclusin: Nanking Massacre DID occurered but the victims number(300,000) is questionable. I felt sick for reading AAR after AAR refering mass rape of women...
Nanking Massacre
I cancel the request of removal of Nanking Massacre as I found report of Naking incident(such as below). Sorry for the incovinience I brought to the readers.
URL: http://prion.bchs.uh.edu/~zzhang/1/Nanking_Massacre/report.html
Though the dscription seemed not fit. As the report stated, it was true IJA killed war prisoners and suspects(CN and CI soldiers often disguised themselves in civil which was prohibited by international law. It is difficult to tell apart soldier from civilian and tends to result in suffuring of civilian) in mass.
IJA's ration was scarce(CN didn't have enough, too). It is said that for fear of starved captives' revolt, order was given to kill them all. Awful...
But mass rape and death of civilian after the battle? It wasn't reported. I had no doubt that many civils were killed and some raped like any other urban battle's result(it's bad but truth which continued up to now). But systematic execution of civil was largely exaggerated statement used for anti-Japan propaganda later.
My conclusin: Nanking Massacre DID occurered but the victims number(300,000) is questionable. I felt sick for reading AAR after AAR refering mass rape of women...
Kiri, Trautmann
I couldn't find enough resources on internet, but it seems Kiri Project's aim and conditions wasn't different from Peace Move of Trautmann.
Background:
The Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs was ignorant, but IJA knew well full-scale war with China would overtax Japan(the western powers gave up the idea of Chinese colonization due to its vast land and population). IJA's intention was beat NC badly and prevented further aggresion. So, they were enraged at Konoe cabinet's cancellation of Peace Move of Trautmann. Kiri Project(Dec 1939-) was conducted by IJA's lead.
It seemed NC was willing to make peace with JAP at Peace Move of Trautmann, but not so at Kiri Project. NC knew prolonged war costed JAP, and if they could earn enough time, USA would join the war and defeat JAP in the end).
Supposed Event Flowupper options are historical)
1)Peace Move of Trautmann (initial negotiation)
EVENT 1A / JAP offer
trigger:
(1)JAP and CHI is at war
(2)JAP controls Beijing, Tienjin, Shanghai and Nanking(AI's initial target and CHI's capital?)
JAP option:
A)present conditions for peace
trigger event 1B
B)no negotiation
tiny dissent hit(1-2?)/war continue
EVENT 1B / CHI responce
triggered by event 1A_A
CHI option:
A)accept offer
trigger event 1C
B)refuse offer
trigger event 1D
EVENT 1C / JAP responce
triggered by event 1B_A
JAP option:
A)cancel negotiation
trigger event 1D
B)sign the pact
trigger event 3A
EVENT 1D JAP responce
triggered by event 1B_B
JAP option:
A) comment(that's bad)
no effect/war continue
EVENT 1E / CHI responce
triggered by event 1C_A
CHI option:
A) comment(that bad. How twisted JAP diplomacy is!)
no effect/war continue
2)Kiri Project
EVENT 2A / JAP offer
trigger:
(1)JAP and CHI is at war
(2)JAP controls enough key provinces?
(3)EVENT 3 isn't triggered
(4)startdate Dec 1939(historically. But in the game, CN would be annexed at the moment...)
JAP option:
A)present conditions for peace
trigger event 2B
B)no negotiation
minor dissent hit(5?)/war continue
EVENT 2B / CHI responce
triggered by event 2A_A
CHI option:
A)refuse offer
trigger event 2C
B)accept offer
trigger event 3A
EVENT 2C JAP responce
triggered by event 2B_A
JAP option:
A) comment(that's too bad)
no effect or tiny dissent hit?(1)/war continue
3) Japan - Nationalist China peace treaty signed
I'll write estimated conditions.
(1)JAP - CHN war ends
(2)CHN grants military access to JAP
(3)CHN - CHC war begins again(if not)
JAP - CHC war begins(if not, and if (2) is adopted)
# This would reflect anti-comintern clause. If JAP is AI, may be JAP had better get military control of CHI to fight CHC. AI won't fight through frienly provinces, will they?
(4)CHN recognize Inner Mongolia and Manchuria
remove their provinces from CHI national ones, to prevent CHI from demanding territory.
(5)MAN inherits north-east China
#I suggest MAN's claim on China. Through MAN, JAP will gain excess coal and steel.
#BTW, I think Daliang should be removed from MAN's national province section. Ryaoton penisula is part of China, but not NE China
(6)CHI guarantees JAP's right
remove Daliang, Takao, Taihoku from CHI national provinces
(7)CHI accepts JAP garrison stationed in North and Mid China
CHI cedes Beijing, Tienjing, Shanghai to Japan? (0.33 IC gain)
(8)CHI quits boycott of Japanese goods(Japanese economical boost)
JAP gains factories on mainland(Asahikawa to Kagoshima?/All national provinces?)
(9)CHI lost popularity among citizen
As Steel's event?
---
AI JAP and CHI would fight to the last in most play. Human JAP players may conquer whole China or sign peace and (hopefully) gain another ally to the Axis. They get enough rewards if they choose the latter case.
Please consider, Steel
ps. v0.532 Kiri Project don't remove Formosa(Takao and Taihoku) from CHI's national provinces. Should they be removed?
BTW, should I post in C.O.R.E. New Event depository thread?
I couldn't find enough resources on internet, but it seems Kiri Project's aim and conditions wasn't different from Peace Move of Trautmann.
Background:
The Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs was ignorant, but IJA knew well full-scale war with China would overtax Japan(the western powers gave up the idea of Chinese colonization due to its vast land and population). IJA's intention was beat NC badly and prevented further aggresion. So, they were enraged at Konoe cabinet's cancellation of Peace Move of Trautmann. Kiri Project(Dec 1939-) was conducted by IJA's lead.
It seemed NC was willing to make peace with JAP at Peace Move of Trautmann, but not so at Kiri Project. NC knew prolonged war costed JAP, and if they could earn enough time, USA would join the war and defeat JAP in the end).
Supposed Event Flow
upper options are historical)1)Peace Move of Trautmann (initial negotiation)
EVENT 1A / JAP offer
trigger:
(1)JAP and CHI is at war
(2)JAP controls Beijing, Tienjin, Shanghai and Nanking(AI's initial target and CHI's capital?)
JAP option:
A)present conditions for peace
trigger event 1B
B)no negotiation
tiny dissent hit(1-2?)/war continue
EVENT 1B / CHI responce
triggered by event 1A_A
CHI option:
A)accept offer
trigger event 1C
B)refuse offer
trigger event 1D
EVENT 1C / JAP responce
triggered by event 1B_A
JAP option:
A)cancel negotiation
trigger event 1D
B)sign the pact
trigger event 3A
EVENT 1D JAP responce
triggered by event 1B_B
JAP option:
A) comment(that's bad)
no effect/war continue
EVENT 1E / CHI responce
triggered by event 1C_A
CHI option:
A) comment(that bad. How twisted JAP diplomacy is!)
no effect/war continue
2)Kiri Project
EVENT 2A / JAP offer
trigger:
(1)JAP and CHI is at war
(2)JAP controls enough key provinces?
(3)EVENT 3 isn't triggered
(4)startdate Dec 1939(historically. But in the game, CN would be annexed at the moment...)
JAP option:
A)present conditions for peace
trigger event 2B
B)no negotiation
minor dissent hit(5?)/war continue
EVENT 2B / CHI responce
triggered by event 2A_A
CHI option:
A)refuse offer
trigger event 2C
B)accept offer
trigger event 3A
EVENT 2C JAP responce
triggered by event 2B_A
JAP option:
A) comment(that's too bad)
no effect or tiny dissent hit?(1)/war continue
3) Japan - Nationalist China peace treaty signed
I'll write estimated conditions.
(1)JAP - CHN war ends
(2)CHN grants military access to JAP
(3)CHN - CHC war begins again(if not)
JAP - CHC war begins(if not, and if (2) is adopted)
# This would reflect anti-comintern clause. If JAP is AI, may be JAP had better get military control of CHI to fight CHC. AI won't fight through frienly provinces, will they?
(4)CHN recognize Inner Mongolia and Manchuria
remove their provinces from CHI national ones, to prevent CHI from demanding territory.
(5)MAN inherits north-east China
#I suggest MAN's claim on China. Through MAN, JAP will gain excess coal and steel.
#BTW, I think Daliang should be removed from MAN's national province section. Ryaoton penisula is part of China, but not NE China
(6)CHI guarantees JAP's right
remove Daliang, Takao, Taihoku from CHI national provinces
(7)CHI accepts JAP garrison stationed in North and Mid China
CHI cedes Beijing, Tienjing, Shanghai to Japan? (0.33 IC gain)
(8)CHI quits boycott of Japanese goods(Japanese economical boost)
JAP gains factories on mainland(Asahikawa to Kagoshima?/All national provinces?)
(9)CHI lost popularity among citizen
As Steel's event?
---
AI JAP and CHI would fight to the last in most play. Human JAP players may conquer whole China or sign peace and (hopefully) gain another ally to the Axis. They get enough rewards if they choose the latter case.
Please consider, Steel
ps. v0.532 Kiri Project don't remove Formosa(Takao and Taihoku) from CHI's national provinces. Should they be removed?
BTW, should I post in C.O.R.E. New Event depository thread?
No, keep the discussion on the Far East here. The idea behind the regional threads is that people with a specialty in a certain region can find *all* the discussion in one thread.
Panay Incident/Nanking Massacre
The full event tree will be on its way to Steel & Genalissimo via zipped email later today. Some general comments: I ended up leaving the war option in there as an extra incremental chance to get the USA into war. As a designer's choice drawing distinctions between two levels of short of war aid seemed tedious.
I used the Nanking Massacre event as the trigger so that event needs a "command = trigger" edit to fire the Panay Incident. One potential issue is that while I was debugging it, I "forced" the events to the "WAR" result twice. In one case I ended up with the expected three way war (China vs. Japan and USA vs. Japan), but in the other, once the USA was in war, then the British piled on so the Japanese were at war with the whole West.
The specific Japanese leaders nailed in the events are the historical CO's during the Nanking Massacre. I have no compunction in naming names here and taking these particular pieces of human offal to task, albeit vicariously.
I couldn't get the "offset" delays to work - or rather when I had them in the event was always firing on the first day anyway, so I deleted them from the code and saved that as a project for later.
Also, my research indicated the British had a 15 boat gunboat flotilla on the Yangtze which was discontinued at some time after the Panay Incident and before 1940. There was also about 4000 Imperial troops garrisoning the foreign zone in Shanghai which were withdrawn in 1940. Those suggest some UK events which I passed on scripting at the time.
Finally, I understand what some people have been complaining about with the alliance and war commands. Since this war is really outside main Democracies/Axis/Comintern alliance system you really have to orchestrate this as a series of one to one wars and patch together pseudo-alliances.
To Unknown & the Nanking Massacre: Take a look at Iris Chang's, The Rape of Nanking. Even if half of the account is true, then the Japanese perpetrated genuine atrocity, and the event hit in manpower understates the loss - even allowing for the number of military age men involved. But this gets close to verboten genocide territory so . . .
The full event tree will be on its way to Steel & Genalissimo via zipped email later today. Some general comments: I ended up leaving the war option in there as an extra incremental chance to get the USA into war. As a designer's choice drawing distinctions between two levels of short of war aid seemed tedious.
I used the Nanking Massacre event as the trigger so that event needs a "command = trigger" edit to fire the Panay Incident. One potential issue is that while I was debugging it, I "forced" the events to the "WAR" result twice. In one case I ended up with the expected three way war (China vs. Japan and USA vs. Japan), but in the other, once the USA was in war, then the British piled on so the Japanese were at war with the whole West.
The specific Japanese leaders nailed in the events are the historical CO's during the Nanking Massacre. I have no compunction in naming names here and taking these particular pieces of human offal to task, albeit vicariously.
I couldn't get the "offset" delays to work - or rather when I had them in the event was always firing on the first day anyway, so I deleted them from the code and saved that as a project for later.
Also, my research indicated the British had a 15 boat gunboat flotilla on the Yangtze which was discontinued at some time after the Panay Incident and before 1940. There was also about 4000 Imperial troops garrisoning the foreign zone in Shanghai which were withdrawn in 1940. Those suggest some UK events which I passed on scripting at the time.
Finally, I understand what some people have been complaining about with the alliance and war commands. Since this war is really outside main Democracies/Axis/Comintern alliance system you really have to orchestrate this as a series of one to one wars and patch together pseudo-alliances.
To Unknown & the Nanking Massacre: Take a look at Iris Chang's, The Rape of Nanking. Even if half of the account is true, then the Japanese perpetrated genuine atrocity, and the event hit in manpower understates the loss - even allowing for the number of military age men involved. But this gets close to verboten genocide territory so . . .
Re: Panay Incident/Nanking Massacre
IIRC two British boats - Ladybird and Cricket - were attacked by Japanese aircraft as well, which may explain the decision to withdraw.
IIRC two British boats - Ladybird and Cricket - were attacked by Japanese aircraft as well, which may explain the decision to withdraw.
Re: Re: Panay Incident/Nanking Massacre
All the European powers withdrew their forces from China by 1940. US and UK were the last to leave IIRC. France withdrew in 1937/8, shifting those troops to Indochina, and Portgual confined itself to Macao in 1936.
All the European powers withdrew their forces from China by 1940. US and UK were the last to leave IIRC. France withdrew in 1937/8, shifting those troops to Indochina, and Portgual confined itself to Macao in 1936.