C.O.R.E HOI - Central/Eastern Europe

[Ghost_dk]

Hungarian events

Just to let everyone know.

The Hungarian events discussed by Forevian and myself earlier have now been scripted and submitted for integration. Hopefully it will make 0.72.

Forevian: I have tried to mail you a copy of the events but the address you sent me keeps bouncing my mail back. Is it still functional?

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(18045)]

I'v got the earliest date of the rebelion in Yugoslavia.

On 6-7 may 1941 around Savski Most.There has been gunfire
exchanges between the Serbs and Croatian ustasha,and the Germans use
their artillery to help ustasha.Another one in Nevesinje 3.june
Gacko,Bilece,Trebinje...The rebelion quicky spred all around
Serb populated areas of NDH,the rebels atacked Italian covnoys
to get weapons and they defended their villages from ustasha.

Ill get the leaders of the rebelion later,many of tham joined
partisans later and one of them was the one who opened the
second counsil of AVNOJ.It important cause I think half of
all partsan leaders came from here.

That beginig of hte rebelion event Zerli,
should be like this than : ?
Make it more devastating with dissent to NDH
and supplies and manpower loses
(a lot of exactly cause NDH couldnt use all of its
manpower like Yugoslavia),also add some supplies loses to Italy.

Oh yeah in my game playing as Germany I gave NDH independance,
but it only controls Zagreb,Osijek,Banja luka and Sarajevo.
You shoudl give it at least Mostar and Dubrovnik that were
historically part of NDH....Oh yeah wasnt Serbia suposed to
be puppet of Germany?And will you change the partion event when
two big cities fall cause its dumb if I am left with Belgrade for
example.Germans entered bott Belgrade,Sarajevo and Zagreb,and only
than was capitulation signed.

You could make event to creta NDH when Sarajevo and Zagreb fall.
Wouldnt that make NDH sucesor of Yugoslavia and have Yugoslavia not
German technology.Also Nedic's Serbia except having technologies from
Germany made 8 infantry divsions 1 motorised with artilery and a dive bobmer,
which is totally unrealistic,cause NEdic's Serbia had only
1 division in WWII called Dobrovoljacki Korpus other were milita called
Drzavna Straza.Why Serbia doesent have leaders?They didnt apear when
I played.

There should be event givin Bulgaria Nis,after 1 year of creation of
Serbia,then after 1 year Novi Pasar and Kraljevo,and finaly after
6 months Valjevo.

Now I sound like critising you but I am not(cause i know it all beta)
,your balkan pack doubled my playing of HOI but if you are doing
something I just wanna see it done right.As you all here also do.

PS I played CORE 071

 

[Zerli]

I'v got the earliest date of the rebelion in Yugoslavia.
On 6-7 may 1941 around Savski Most.There has been gunfire
exchanges between the Serbs and Croatian ustasha,and the Germans use
their artillery to help ustasha.Another one in Nevesinje 3.june
Gacko,Bilece,Trebinje...The rebelion quicky spred all around
Serb populated areas of NDH,the rebels atacked Italian covnoys
to get weapons and they defended their villages from ustasha.

As for a starting point for armed rebellion, I chose the June 22nd and the Sisak railroad sabotage strike and forming of the partisan company because it is a highly symbolic event. It signifies a successful attack, it shows the nature of the partisan movement through the first part of the war (sabotage, guerilla warfare), and it hints that it will the communist-led partisans that will eventually become a real threat. We can obviously argue that there are earlier strikes against Germans, because there are. I simply considered them not as symbolic as this one. I'd like the initial event to be small, trivial in damage, but to foreshadow the things to come. Basically, I wanna give the German player something to worry about...

On a side note, we can add these other attacks for NDH as flavor events. Their real impact was small, certainly difficult to model on a province/country level. Btw, in v0.72, I've made a version of the Sisak partisan strike for Germany, Croatia and Italy, triggering to whoever owns the Zagreb province...

That beginig of hte rebelion event Zerli,
should be like this than : ?
Make it more devastating with dissent to NDH
and supplies and manpower loses
(a lot of exactly cause NDH couldnt use all of its
manpower like Yugoslavia),also add some supplies loses to Italy.

Hmm. NDH already doesn't get much in the way of manpower, throughout its provinces. It also loses a fair amount with some new events for v0.72 that I made or converted from Ivan Bajlo's work. Unfortunately, I need some playing feedback on how much manpower does NDH really get. Could you play NDH in a v0.71, see how much stuff can you build? I want to establish a baseline. My experiences show that NDH builds at most 4 infantry divisions and 1 fighter air group. This is not excessive, IMHO.

Oh yeah in my game playing as Germany I gave NDH independance,
but it only controls Zagreb,Osijek,Banja luka and Sarajevo.
You shoudl give it at least Mostar and Dubrovnik that were
historically part of NDH....

This is a temporary situation, needed for German AI to have a land route to Greece. DoW on Greece follows Yugoslav war about 90% of time, and Greece falls fairly soon. AFTER THIS, Rome Agreement event kicks in and NDH gets the coast, and the rest of Yugoslavia gets divided between Axis powers. Also, Croatia becomes an Italian puppet. Germany keeps only Slovenia. NOTE: This is all fixed in v0.72, has some bugs in v0.71 that made it difficult to trigger.

Oh yeah wasnt Serbia suposed to
be puppet of Germany?

There is an event in v0.71 that makes Serbia a German puppet. This event should fire within a day of Serbian independence. As far as I know, this works fine in v0.71. Are you sure you didn't simply miss the event firing in the game log?

And will you change the partion event when
two big cities fall cause its dumb if I am left with Belgrade for
example.Germans entered bott Belgrade,Sarajevo and Zagreb,and only
than was capitulation signed.

Unfortunately, this is also needed for the proper firing of the partition event. If all three are taken, game engine annexes Yugoslavia before my event has a chance to fire, and that messes things up. This is the best I can do to prevent easy surrender, and still allow for a quick German victory and a partition. If you have a better solution, one that still prevents game engine from annexing prematurely, feel free to propose it.

You could make event to creta NDH when Sarajevo and Zagreb fall.

This is certainly possible. I will have to think about the consequences, though. Remember, AI has a difficult time attacking across allied territory, even with military access. If we make NDH before Yugoslavia surrenders, Germany might just sit there and allow Yugoslavia to retake NDH before it even has a chance...

Wouldnt that make NDH sucesor of Yugoslavia and have Yugoslavia not
German technology.Also Nedic's Serbia except having technologies from
Germany made 8 infantry divsions 1 motorised with artilery and a dive bobmer, which is totally unrealistic,cause NEdic's Serbia had only
1 division in WWII called Dobrovoljacki Korpus other were milita called
Drzavna Straza.

You are absolutely right. In v0.72, both Serbia and NDH are created from Yugoslavia and avoid the problem of excess technologies. I have, however, noticed that Serbia tends to build a lot of units. The best way to limit this would be with manpower reductions. I will try and work that out for v0.72 or alternatively, v0.8 if I don't make it in time. Also, if we enter the events that transfer most of central Serbia to Bulgaria, the Belgrade province by itself won't be able to support or build too many units anyway.

Why Serbia doesent have leaders?They didnt apear when I played.

I believe this is due to a small bug in the v0.71 leader file setup. I think I have it corrected, but I am not sure. Let me get back to you on that one...

There should be event givin Bulgaria Nis,after 1 year of creation of
Serbia,then after 1 year Novi Pasar and Kraljevo,and finaly after
6 months Valjevo.

These sound like very interesting events, could you give me some background information on that? I remember vaguely that Germans handed over occupation control to Bulgarians in central Serbia, but I don't have the dates or any other information. I am particularly interested in the size and composition of Bulgarian occupation troops, and their attitude and relationship with Nedic' puppet government.

Zerli

P.S. Man, I am even starting to get on my own nerves with the incessant v0.72 this, v0.72 that chatter. I wish we could just release it already...

 

[Raczynski]

Where I can find events that create Croatia and Serbia?
Because in my last game, I`ve conquered Yugoslavia but didn`t any events at all

 

[Ghost_dk]

Where I can find events that create Croatia and Serbia?
Because in my last game, I`ve conquered Yugoslavia but didn`t any events at all

They should be in the CORE_SEEurope.txt and german conterparts in the CORE_Germany.txt

Ghost_dk

 

[unmerged(18045)]

As for a starting point for armed rebellion, I chose the June 22nd and the Sisak railroad sabotage strike and forming of the partisan company because it is a highly symbolic event. It signifies a successful attack, it shows the nature of the partisan movement through the first part of the war (sabotage, guerilla warfare), and it hints that it will the communist-led partisans that will eventually become a real threat

Ok...I dont know what exactly did these rebels do but they certainly did fight both Germans and NDH(I cant say ustasha anymore its anoying).And most of those rebels joined partisans later.And KPJ was armed to the teeth even earlier.
But ok...these werent clashes of 10 men, but of hundreds in all over NDH etc.I think it was a major event for those days.Things would be much different if NDH remianed less agresive to the Serb question.I think it least should be an event.And I think there was much more damage to NDH and Gemrans than forming of a partisan company....Cause this forces were mcuh larger than the partisan company.I just cant see more symoblic than this.

Btw, in v0.72

0v72 is out ? YESSSSSS.

Unfortunately, this is also needed for the proper firing of the partition event. If all three are taken, game engine annexes Yugoslavia before my event has a chance to fire, and that messes things up. This is the best I can do to prevent easy surrender, and still allow for a quick German victory and a partition. If you have a better solution, one that still prevents game engine from annexing prematurely, feel free to propose it.

Hmm I think I understand ...err could you give VP to Novi Pasar(an event when the war starts)?Than you could make an event that when Belgrade falls to take those VP from Novi pasar(quick German victory).Now it is kind dumb maybe but it might work(give those other events enough time),and there aint big damage done to the gameplay.

Also, if we enter the events that transfer most of central Serbia to Bulgaria, the Belgrade province by itself won't be able to support or build too many units anyway.

And it couldnt support itself alone,thats why it was german puppet
It would solve many units thingy also. + Completely historicall.

These sound like very interesting events, could you give me some background information on that? I remember vaguely that Germans handed over occupation control to Bulgarians in central Serbia, but I don't have the dates or any other information. I am particularly interested in the size and composition of Bulgarian occupation troops, and their attitude and relationship with Nedic' puppet government.

Now..I only have a map(i have to get a scanner) and exact dates.
Now dates dont mean much without the map...And some info that Bulgarians were kinda bad,and did very bad things(althought not as bad sa those in NDH and Kosovo)....I am really interested in realtionship with Nedic goverment,but I think that it was as same as with NDH - a necessity.Germans didnt trust Nedic and Nedics forces were small and poorly armed.
But that is something that has to be checked.

Ill see to help about that,but I am rrrrreally busy these days. :wacko:

 

[Dibo]

These sound like very interesting events, could you give me some background information on that? I remember vaguely that Germans handed over occupation control to Bulgarians in central Serbia, but I don't have the dates or any other information. I am particularly interested in the size and composition of Bulgarian occupation troops, and their attitude and relationship with Nedic' puppet government.
Zerli

I can provide this information. Do you need only information for Bulgarian troops in Serbia, or you need it also for Macedonia and Kosovo?

 

[unmerged(18045)]

Give him all what you got...maps with dates when the bulgarians took
"duties" from germans.
I got the map and the dates but unfortunately
dont have a scaner near by.

Gee Dibo,if I was more like you...providing more info and talk less

 

[Zerli]

Blarg! Address change!

If you want to contact me via e-mail, correct e-mail addy is:

ilulic@mail.ecst.csuchico.edu

Zerli

 

[Dibo]

Blarg! Address change!

If you want to contact me via e-mail, correct e-mail addy is:

ilulic@mail.ecst.csuchico.edu

Zerli

OK

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I never liked how the Baltic countries are eaten up by the Soviet Union because that's not how it actually happened. Firstly, the Soviet Union signed 'Mutual aid pacts' with the three Baltic states (Estonia on 28 September, 1939, with Latvia on October 5, with Lithuania on October 10. According to those agreements the USSR received a right to station its troops in the above lands and to set up military air-bases and naval stations there as well. The Soviets stationed (according to them) 25,000 troops in Estonia, 30,000 in Latvia, and 20,000 in Lithuania. The treaties guaranteed Baltic independence and reiterated Soviet non-interference in Baltic affairs)

On October 11 1939, Lithuania received Wilno/Vilnius from the USSR after the partition of Poland. On June 17 1940 (I haven't played much 1.06 yet but I hear it's in the game but.... Lithuania does it as opposed to the Soviets?) was invaded by the Soviet Union and did not put up a fight. The following month all three baltic states (including Soviet occupied Lithuania) 'voted' to become part of the Soviet Union.

 

[JRaup]

I never liked how the Baltic countries are eaten up by the Soviet Union because that's not how it actually happened. Firstly, the Soviet Union signed 'Mutual aid pacts' with the three Baltic states (Estonia on 28 September, 1939, with Latvia on October 5, with Lithuania on October 10. According to those agreements the USSR received a right to station its troops in the above lands and to set up military air-bases and naval stations there as well. The Soviets stationed (according to them) 25,000 troops in Estonia, 30,000 in Latvia, and 20,000 in Lithuania. The treaties guaranteed Baltic independence and reiterated Soviet non-interference in Baltic affairs)

On October 11 1939, Lithuania received Wilno/Vilnius from the USSR after the partition of Poland. On June 17 1940 (I haven't played much 1.06 yet but I hear it's in the game but.... Lithuania does it as opposed to the Soviets?) was invaded by the Soviet Union and did not put up a fight. The following month all three baltic states (including Soviet occupied Lithuania) 'voted' to become part of the Soviet Union.

this situation could probably use some more fleshing out of teh chain. As it stands now, whne the M-R pact gets signed, the soviets get claims over the Baltics, which they go after using DI. At the time, it was the best way to handle it, as any sort of DOW to invade teh Baltics would set off a whole mess prematurely.

As for Vilnius to Lithuania, it's in CORE. It just doesn't always get a chance to fire, as the Lithuanians often give in to the Soviet demands before it comes up.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

I think the Soviets in July of 1940 should go on a made rush of demands to the Baltic states (except for Lithuania who get annexed). Also can the 'Mutual Aide Pacts' with the Baltic states be implemented? They should give the USSR military access to the three Baltic states

 

[JRaup]

I think the Soviets in July of 1940 should go on a made rush of demands to the Baltic states (except for Lithuania who get annexed). Also can the 'Mutual Aide Pacts' with the Baltic states be implemented? They should give the USSR military access to the three Baltic states

Under the current scheme, the Soviets spend a huge ammount of DI to get the baltics to give in to them. As they refuse at times, this is a rather large expenditure of Soviet DI (which is a good thing BTW). They generally start late 39, and are done by late 40.

And I don't see why the aid pacts can't be implemented. Just give MA to the Soviets by event for each Baltic state. With a B option to refuse of course.

 

[Semi-Lobster]

Maybe they could be event annexations like with Germany and Czechoslovakia

 

[JRaup]

Maybe they could be event annexations like with Germany and Czechoslovakia

I don't think this is necessary. As the three baltics always give in, and no later than June 1940, I think it better to have the Soviets waste their DI doing so, rather than allow them to spend it on getting extra allies.

However, depending on what hidden changes exist in 1.06, it may be a good idea to have a back up plan. just in case...

 

[Dibo]

I can provide this information. Do you need only information for Bulgarian troops in Serbia, or you need it also for Macedonia and Kosovo?

19.04.1941 till 28.05.1941 - The occupation of Macedonia and Moravsko is initially carried out by 5th army (newly formed temporary army, commanded by Major-General Nikola Mihov (available in HOI 1.06), comprises of 6th and 7th infantry divisions and 1st Fast division).
1.08.1941 - new regular 5th army district formed in Macedonia comprising of 14th infantry division district (Skopje, Kumanovo, Vranja) and 15th infantry division district (Bitolja, Shtip, Strumitza), 1st separate cavalry brigade (Skopje) and 113 air reconnaisance and liason squadron (voiskovo jato) (Skopje). In addition one infantry battalion (drujina) is garrisoned in Pirot and is included organisationally in 1st infantry division district (Sofia). In 1943 17th infantry division district (do not mix it up with the 17th mixed infantry division that operated in Serbia earlier and was only a provisional unit) is formed and is included in the 5th army. These three divisions (14, 15, 17) were regular.

12.41 - German High Command asks for Bulgarian troops to occupy part of Serbia. In 01.42 for this task the 1st occupational corps was formed. Commander - Lieutenant-General Asen Nikolov (available in HOI 1.06). Comprises of 6th infantry division, 17th mixed infantry division, 21th mixed infantry division one air squadron, etc. 17th and 21st infantry divisions were assemblied from various reserve and conscript sub-units and were not considered regular divisions. The corps HQ and 21st division were based in Nish, 6th division in Kjupia, 17th division in Prokuplje. 1st corps was under the Command of the German general Bader (commander of the German corps in Belgrade). At the end of 1942 the occupation territory of the 1st corps was enlarged by the territory formerly occupied by the German 104th division (sent to Russia) and reached Drina river.
03.1943 - change of troops of 1st corps. Former three divisions replaced by 22nd, 24th, 27th divisions.
06.1943. Occupation area again enlarged to include all the area west to Kolubara river and north to Danube river except Belgrade. Additional 25th division formed to cover these new territories.
04.1944 - new 29th infantry division formed in Moravsko (Vranja, Pirot, Bojanovo). Later 6th division was moved at the old serbian border with Bulgaria.
05.1944 - 1st corps reinforced with one infantry regiment and one artillery battalion plus one attack squadron (Nish).
Except for the 6th division (regular), all divisions in the 1st Occupation corps in general included only two regiments, instead of the usual three, had only a few old artillery pieces, almost non-existing motorized transport, ATG and AA capabilities, and from the point of view of HOI should be considered Militia divisions. Needless to say these divisions had little cohesion (most of the officers and the soldiers being reservists and conscripts with a low morale) and were capable of battling only units with dubious fighting characteristics like the various poorly armed and trained partisan and nationalistic units in Yugoslavia.

Maps:

1st Occupation corps in late August 1944

Bulgarian army units location in late August 1944
Note: Blue with dots indicates Cadre formations only, Red indicates fully mobilized units, Blue indicates 50% mobilization.

Bulgarian and German troops in Greece and Yugoslavia at the end of August 1944
Note: Blue indicates German troops, Red indicates Bulgarian troops

5th army location in Macedonia in August and its retreat to Bulgaria in early September

 

[Zerli]

Dibo,

Thanks for the information. I've made a preliminary set of events, dealing with initial Bulgarian occupation of Nis. Here they are:

event = {
id = XXXXX0
country = GER
random = no
trigger = {
war = { country = GER country = SOV }
alliance = { country = GER country = SER }
ispuppet = SER
alliance = { country = GER country = BUL }
control = { province = 735 data = SER } # Nis
random = 30
}

name = "Occupation of southern Serbia"
desc = "Unrest in southern Serbia has proved a continued drain on our manpower. With the war with Soviet Union, the

military feels they need the occupation forces stationed there on the front. Our allies, the Bulgarians, have long claimed

this area for their own, and are offering to take over occupation duties. On the other hand, southern Serbia is a

strategically important region, guarding the main road and rail lines to Greece. Shall we transfer control of southern Serbia

to Bulgarians?"

date = { day = 1 month = october year = 1942 }
offset = 25
deathdate = { day = 1 month = april year = 1943 }

action_a = {
name = "Give it to Bulgarians; we need the troops"
command = { type = trigger which = XXXXX1 }
command = { type = add_division which = infantry value = 0 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = YYYYYY } # For future occupation of Serbia events
}
action_b = {
name = "Keep it, it is strategically important"
command = { type = influence value = -1 } # Bulgarians are dissapointed
}
}

event = {
id = XXXXX1
country = SER
random = no

name = "Germans transfer control of south Serbia to Bulgarians"
desc = "Unrest in southern Serbia has proved a continued drain on German manpower. With the war with Soviet Union,

Germans feel they need the occupation forces stationed there on the front. Therefore they have transfered control of southern

Serbia, particularly the area around Nis, to their Bulgarian allies. Bulgarians have long claimed those areas due to a small

Bulgar minority living there. We have little choice but to accept."

action_a = {
name = "We will lodge a formal protest to German government"
command = { type = dissent value = 5 } # Popular anger
command = { type = supplies value = -500 } # Loss of property
command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUL value = 735 } # Nis
command = { type = trigger which = XXXXX2 }
}
}

event = {
id = XXXXX2
country = BUL
random = no

name = "Southern Serbia transferred to Bulgarian control"
desc = "Germans have transferred control over the area surrounding Nis to us. Our military is sending troops for

occupation duties, to pacify the notoriously unstable region. Many in Bulgaria are pleased to see our proper territories

restored, lost since the Balkan Wars."

action_a = {
name = "Excellent news"
command = { type = dissent value = -2 } # Nationalists are pleased
command = { type = supplies value = -1000 } # Supplies for occupation
command = { type = manpowerpool value = -15 } # Occupation troops
}
}

What do you guys think?

Zerli

 

[Hogar]

ideas

I was reading about the first days of the Croatian nazi regime. I got several ideas that could find the way into the game...

- During the April (1941) government installed several laws that quickly showed a true nature of the new regime.
1. The Law on the Protection of the People and the State.
2. The first racial law, on "the Aryanization of Jewish property". Serbs were ordered to wear blue sleeve bands with the letter "P" (Pravoslavni, Orthodox), and Jews the Star of David and the letter "Z" (Zidov, Jew).
3. June 1941. Mile Budak, Pavelic's minister of education, stated: "For the rest - Serbs, Jews and Gypsies - we have three million bullets. We shall kill one third of all Serbs. We shall deport another third, and the rest of them will be forced to become Roman Catholic." This is one of the most notorious statements made by an official of the state during the war - a death certificate for many.
[Effects: dissent hit (?), alignment towards fascism and possible loss manpower (?)]
I have no idea how much this had effect on ethnic Croatians, but since Serbs made up, at least, 25% of total population there is ought to be some dissent hit. Some Serbs never accepted the new regime and were already pissed off by the fallout of Yugoslavia anyway. On the other hand, some Croatians were probably very happy with these laws. All makes me somewhat unsure what exactly this dissent his should be.
Alignment is not questionable. Manpower loss is problematic, since Croatia never intended to recruit Serbs anyway (IMHO).

- 11 June 1941 - Croatian Peasant Party (HSS) was prohibited from public work. Property of the Party and prominent members was confiscated.
[Effects: dissent hit, alignment towards fascism and supplies gain].

I tried to find some populist moves government made (to decrease dissent) but it is difficult to find a web site that would say anything nice about these guys.
Feel free to give any comment.

 

[Ghost_dk]

I was reading about the first days of the Croatian nazi regime. I got several ideas that could find the way into the game...

- During the April (1941) government installed several laws that quickly showed a true nature of the new regime.
1. The Law on the Protection of the People and the State.
2. The first racial law, on "the Aryanization of Jewish property". Serbs were ordered to wear blue sleeve bands with the letter "P" (Pravoslavni, Orthodox), and Jews the Star of David and the letter "Z" (Zidov, Jew).
3. June 1941. Mile Budak, Pavelic's minister of education, stated: "For the rest - Serbs, Jews and Gypsies - we have three million bullets. We shall kill one third of all Serbs. We shall deport another third, and the rest of them will be forced to become Roman Catholic." This is one of the most notorious statements made by an official of the state during the war - a death certificate for many.
[effects: dissent fit, alignment towards fascism and possible loss manpower]

- 11 June 1941 - Croatian Peasant Party (HSS) was prohibited from public work. Property of the Party and prominent members was confiscated.
[effects: dissent fit, alignment towards fascism and gain supplies].

I tried to find some populist moves government made (to decrease dissent) but it is difficult to find a web site that would say anything nice about these guys.
Feel free to give any comment.

The declaration/laws made against certein national or religious groops are off limits through the rules set up by paradox for this game and as such wont be accepted into CORE either. You are of course free to add them to your own game if you choose.

Ghost_dk