Does anyone know the HOI world record for surviving as Poland after the German DOW? I'm at 4 months + and still holding Warsaw (but with units filtering out because of the danger of encirclement) and still have 106 infantry divisions.
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Just wanted to say...
... it is so cool having guys from Central Europe (Balkans, etc) in here to work stuff out. We Westerners are pretty clueless. Well, at least me.
... it is so cool having guys from Central Europe (Balkans, etc) in here to work stuff out. We Westerners are pretty clueless. Well, at least me.
Just wait for us to join the EU, you'll learn it the hard way 
But seriously, I got a bit tired with Victoria and started thinking about the long-forgotten projects for C.O.R.E. Since the whole Operation Tempest and Warsaw Uprising seem a bit hard to do (the problem with double revolter remains unsolved), I'm starting the government on exile vs. soviet puppet chain of events. From the death of Sikorski to the Yalta. Any ideas?
Cheers
But seriously, I got a bit tired with Victoria and started thinking about the long-forgotten projects for C.O.R.E. Since the whole Operation Tempest and Warsaw Uprising seem a bit hard to do (the problem with double revolter remains unsolved), I'm starting the government on exile vs. soviet puppet chain of events. From the death of Sikorski to the Yalta. Any ideas?
Cheers
Semi-Lobster said:
My mistake - this site seems incompatible with Google Toolbar
o
German Aggression in the Baltics
Ran into a problem. Poland had declared war upon Lithuania and annexed it before Fall Weiss. When Germany takes those provinces back during Fall Weiss, this triggers the German Aggression in the Baltics (# 9400) where the Soviets declare war on Germany.
Clearly it should be resolved in one of the following manners:
1) Germany liberates Lithuania
2) SU and Germany divide the spoils somehow
3) the triggers for 9400 be reworked so that if Poland does the 'attack Lithuania' thing (can't recall the event), then this event doesn't fire.
#3 is easiest, #2 makes some sense, #1 seems the most remote.
Ran into a problem. Poland had declared war upon Lithuania and annexed it before Fall Weiss. When Germany takes those provinces back during Fall Weiss, this triggers the German Aggression in the Baltics (# 9400) where the Soviets declare war on Germany.
Clearly it should be resolved in one of the following manners:
1) Germany liberates Lithuania
2) SU and Germany divide the spoils somehow
3) the triggers for 9400 be reworked so that if Poland does the 'attack Lithuania' thing (can't recall the event), then this event doesn't fire.
#3 is easiest, #2 makes some sense, #1 seems the most remote.
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OK, until we resolve this issue, I am going to suggest the following addition to the trigger conditions of #9400:
event = 702083 # Lithuania refuses Poland (usually results in war)
Put that into the bracket of all the "OR" triggers. I post the event in the Wiki for integration until there is a consensus on resolution.
event = 702083 # Lithuania refuses Poland (usually results in war)
Put that into the bracket of all the "OR" triggers. I post the event in the Wiki for integration until there is a consensus on resolution.
adding this could help too:Phil K said:
AND = {
owned = { province = 709 data = LAT }
owned = { province = 715 data = LIT }
owned = { province = 707 data = EST }
}
but i think that the event should be splitted... because, if someone takes Estonia could result in weird things too...
just add that to the trigger clause.Phil K said:Geez, I am lost. Not sure where to put that.
it will check that the baltic states were not touched before the event triggers, if someone owns some of those provinces, it means that someone have already annexed one of them...
Well, I wrote out a huge post yesterday and somehow didn't post it. Gack! I'll try again. Here's the ahistorical situation with a question for feedback:
It is just after the German reoccupation of the Rhineland. France demands a troop withdrawal, Germany refuses, and it escalates to a French-German war with France out of the Allies. This is what we call the Early War.
OK, CORE v7 will have an event that if Germany is at war with France prior to 1939, then Poland will have an opportunity to press Germany for territorial claims. This, on average, escalates into war between Poland and Germany. Germany is now fighting a two-front war. Again.
However, because Poland has escalated this situation, she is not in an alliance with France or England. Here's the question:
Would the USSR take the opportunity to grab eastern Poland as the Germans worked their way across Poland from the west?
Now, we have an alternate Molotov-Ribbentrop event that fires before the historic Aug1939 date should a state of war exist between Germany and Poland. Normally that would be because a human German player has attacked Poland.
But in the above instance, it is Poland that has pushed things into war. One of the things about the real M-R pact was that it bought both the Germans and Russians 'time' from confrontation with each other, which is what they each wanted.
So I could definitely see the Soviets saying, "screw it - you have Poland who has jumped on your back unexpectedly and you are in no position to negotiate with us" as a way of refusing a pact with Germany. I guess ultimately it boils down to in that ahistorical situation, how would the outlooks of each nation affect their actions; Germany in initiating an early M-R pact and USSR in just invading Poland?
It is just after the German reoccupation of the Rhineland. France demands a troop withdrawal, Germany refuses, and it escalates to a French-German war with France out of the Allies. This is what we call the Early War.
OK, CORE v7 will have an event that if Germany is at war with France prior to 1939, then Poland will have an opportunity to press Germany for territorial claims. This, on average, escalates into war between Poland and Germany. Germany is now fighting a two-front war. Again.
However, because Poland has escalated this situation, she is not in an alliance with France or England. Here's the question:
Would the USSR take the opportunity to grab eastern Poland as the Germans worked their way across Poland from the west?
Now, we have an alternate Molotov-Ribbentrop event that fires before the historic Aug1939 date should a state of war exist between Germany and Poland. Normally that would be because a human German player has attacked Poland.
But in the above instance, it is Poland that has pushed things into war. One of the things about the real M-R pact was that it bought both the Germans and Russians 'time' from confrontation with each other, which is what they each wanted.
So I could definitely see the Soviets saying, "screw it - you have Poland who has jumped on your back unexpectedly and you are in no position to negotiate with us" as a way of refusing a pact with Germany. I guess ultimately it boils down to in that ahistorical situation, how would the outlooks of each nation affect their actions; Germany in initiating an early M-R pact and USSR in just invading Poland?
Phil K said:
Wrong question, I would say. This situation is just so incredible unhistoric, the only reason for it to be in the game is, that it's a game and someone liked this possiblity to have there.
So the question cannot be, what the USSR would have done, but what we want the HoI USSR to do in the game.
Is this going to happen? I mean Germany can defend against France with minimum means, most of their forces are free to attack Poland, and Poland is to weak to survive this. Would the USSR attack a Germany which only has a weak France as opponent in the West? The Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty was signed with the threat of France and the UK in the west, and by then it wasn't clear that they couldn't invade Germany.
I would make this secondary choice.
Ilkhold said:
Right, the whole thing is ahistorical. That is what needs to be addressed. It is ahistorical for France to stand up to Germany after the Rhineland reoccupation, but it is there and causes a big change in alliances and usually leads to war. Really, what needs to be worked up are events where Germany and France agree to peace over some conditions rather than Germany or France conquering one another after that early war.
No, France is not 'weak' in the early war like they are in 1939. The French only have an ORG drop via the 1939 Blitzkrieg effects event. Their org is around 50 and not at all easy to deal with like in 1939. Not saying they are going deep into Germany, but a human French player should be able to hurt Germany if she is simultaneously at war with Poland.
Why would USSR attack Germany? You have me there. What I am asking is while Germany is at war with Poland (an ahistorical, Polish-aggravated war), would the Soviets send their tanks into eastern Poland to grab whatever they wanted? Germany will undoubtedly annex Poland, but the Soviets would have occupied eastern Polish territories in their hands. IRL, the Soviets did in fact crunch down at the end which caused final defense problems for the Polish.
So what are you saying should be a secondary (I guess you mean the 'B' option?) choice? I guess you mean whether Germany offers the M-R pact?
What I am thinking of is a Soviet event that checks to see if Germany is at war w/ both France and Poland (uses the pertinent unique event IDs that signal the early war as triggers for the event) and if Germany controls Warsaw, Konigsberg, and either Radom or Krakow. IOW, she is pushing across Poland and the Poles look like they will fall. The event then is either DA or NYET.
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IMO there should be something similar to the M-R pact, if there is that ahistorical early war. Why? Becasue I think that Stalin would have gone ahead with the "let the capitalists destroy themselves" policy regardless of who started shooting first. This way, the Soviets still get their "buffer zone" in eastern Poland, and get the free hand to deal with Finland. I'd leave teh Blatics out of it for now. Of course this could very well produce a Soviet-Allies war over Finland. Even so, given that a Franco-German war would already be happening, why not?
Yes, what I think should occur is that it should be the Soviets approaching the Germans (Molotov approaches Ribbentrop) and basically puts it on the table as "sign it" (the historic partition of Poland). Germany will:
A) Sign it
B) Refuse it (and open up the door to whatever awaits when the original M-R pact is not offered).
A) Sign it
B) Refuse it (and open up the door to whatever awaits when the original M-R pact is not offered).
During a war such a treaty seems far more difficult to me.
What about the possibility for the SSSR to also declare war on Poland and to invade without a prior agreement with germany. You then get three basic possiblities to resolve this situation:
- Wehrmacht and Red Army clash in Poland resulting in a war
- Diplomacy resolves any issues from fighting incidents or none occur leading to a partition of Poland similar to the historic one
- No clashes occur and no diplomatic resolving happens, leaving Poland divided as it was conquered.
What about the possibility for the SSSR to also declare war on Poland and to invade without a prior agreement with germany. You then get three basic possiblities to resolve this situation:
- Wehrmacht and Red Army clash in Poland resulting in a war
- Diplomacy resolves any issues from fighting incidents or none occur leading to a partition of Poland similar to the historic one
- No clashes occur and no diplomatic resolving happens, leaving Poland divided as it was conquered.
I doubt something similar to R-M was possible prior to 1939. Historically, it hasn't been decided on which side will the soviets play until summer 1939. In an early war scenario (which happens usually at the very start of the game in 1936) a Beck-Molotov Pact (or whoever was the commissar prior to 1939) scenario would be equally probable. French pressure would be indeed huge and such pact would not be impossible.
Also, if the war started in 1936, I see no chance for Germany to win it. Even on one front it should be virtually impossible since in 1936 the Wehrmacht was virtually non-existent. It had 480.000 soldiers (30 divisions at most compared to France's 2 millions of soldiers), no airforce yet, almost no tanks... It wasn't until december 1936 when Wehrmacht's standing army rose to 900.000 men. Why would Stalin try to support the loosing side?
Cheers
Also, if the war started in 1936, I see no chance for Germany to win it. Even on one front it should be virtually impossible since in 1936 the Wehrmacht was virtually non-existent. It had 480.000 soldiers (30 divisions at most compared to France's 2 millions of soldiers), no airforce yet, almost no tanks... It wasn't until december 1936 when Wehrmacht's standing army rose to 900.000 men. Why would Stalin try to support the loosing side?
Cheers
Well in that case did Poland have any claims on Germany? Would any other nations join the fray? Like Czechoslovakia or the low countries? Would a Germany at war have any interest in supporting an uprising in Spain? What would Italy and Austria do?