C.O.R.E HOI - Central/Eastern Europe

[Ivan Bajlo]

At that point, Germany has a guaranteed land route to Greece, so I can simply delay the actual partition till Greece is conquered.

Not a bad idea although I have event triggering creation of NDH once Germans or other axis enters Zagreb - purpose is to create NDH with YUG tech instead of German or Italian plus it is historical way - trick is to have only Zagreb province in revolt.txt - I'm also adding Nedic's Serbia and Chetniks in similar way since Belgrade and Valjevo aren't need for direct rout and Germans will still have clear access through provinces.

If NDH get German or Italian tech lots of my tech events become useless and NDH, Serbia, Chetniks, Partisans get little too tough.

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

7. Giving Thessaloniki to Germans sounds like a good idea.

I agree with Dibo this is the same problem as with Rijeka province, while city was under control of one country most of the province was controlled by another.

German control of Thessaloniki only creates bigger mess.

Its all Paradox fault why couldn't they simply divide area in five times more provinces... HoI Balkan edition!

 

[Zerli]

Mmmm.... mess, this is all a great big mess.

Ok, one thing at a time.

1. Ivan, I tried to set up NDH with just one province initially. However, this crashes HoI + CORE v0.63 when you put Croatia as having only one province in initial revolt.txt. It is bizarre, to say the least. I'll try again with v0.64. I also need whatever solution we find to allow for correct (no crashes!) triggering of my Yugoslav civil war (5% option after a 10% option).

If it works, then I can set up NDH with only one province initially, and Serbia can be set up at full size, because this does not sever the land connection to Greece. Also, in that case the trigger for NDH creation can either be German units entering Zagreb, or it can be a part of my pre-partition event where Germany gets control of all of Yugoslavia.

Once Greece falls, partition should trigger, and give Croatia all their provinces in their extra section in revolt.txt, which includes the coast and Bosnia, and Osijek province. Italy gets Kosovo only at this point, while Hungary and Bulgaria get their historical claims.

2. Rome Agreements trigger sometime after the fall of Greece. Allright, how about we ditch any and all choices on the Croatian side. We simply give Italians a yes/no kind of a choice, and two events informing Croatia about it. Italy can either take historical route, get Dalmatia, Mostar, Dubrovnik and Croatia as puppet, or take more (Rijeka) for a bigger dissent hit, with no puppeting. Either way, this is not a good event for Croatia and it loses territory and gets dissent.

3. Your various technology transfer events can then fire.

4. My Yugoslavia reborn, under the communists, can then be created in Bosnia, Sarajevo province, with Croatian technology (as opposed to German tech). Alternatively we can create it in Serbia, in Valjevo, even though I'd prefer a central location for the partisan movement, purely for practical reasons - easier for their units to take provinces that way.

5. I'll leave Thessaloniki to whoever things they can handle it. Perhaps we can give it to Bulgarians to administer for the Germans, and set up some supply gains for Germany?

Feedback?

Zerli

 

[Hogar]

1. This is better option but messy to implement. You could trigger surrender and Croatia independence at about the same time (CRO gets Zagreb only as you suggest). Rome agreements and partition should trigger when Greece is beaten. I might try this...

2. Agree. Apparently Italy initially had even more drastic proposal on the table but that was scaled back so Croatia would accept it. There was no choice for Croatia and this way we could get away nicely from the whole mess.

4. Just a suggestion... Because they could be easily beaten and annexed in HOI terms you'll need some events to re-create Yugoslavia again, and again... If you set Banja Luka as the minimum in revolt.txt (it was the province that was most often in the hands of YUG throughout the war) and just add another province that was outside the contemporary 'republic'.
1941. Uzice -> independence YUG (they get Banja Luka) + event to get Valjevo
1942 Bihac -> independence YUG (they get Banja Luka)
1943 Jajce -> independence YUG (they get Banja Luka)... etc.

 

[JRaup]

From Zerli:
JRaup, demobilization can fairly easily be simulated with a manpower hit. It is not an ideal solution, but works out nicely, because it limits reinforcements to frontline troops.

Hmmm. OK. It will end up being more flavor than any actual impact. Once the Germans get involved, the Greeks get steam rolled. The MP hit won't have a real impact, as they won't have the time for it to have an effect. However, I will add in a few lines to the B option for the Greeks, where they accept the Italian Ultimatum, to represent the demobilization, in addition to the provincial losses.

From Zerli:
Actually, delaying the partition is no problem at all! I've had the problem of division in mind when I designed the partition events, and here is what happens:

1. Yugoslavia is attacked, and loses control of Beograd and Sarajevo. It doesn't matter who takes the provinces.
2. Germany automatically gets all Yugoslav provinces for itself in a separate event.
3. Partition triggers when and if we want it to.

So even if Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, and anyone else take land, they don't get to keep it, at least not right away. And this fires regardless of who takes which province.

At that point, Germany has a guaranteed land route to Greece, so I can simply delay the actual partition till Greece is conquered.

I see. Very nice. That should work, but will definitely need some rigorous testing for any potential exploits, and to check AI behavior.

From Zerli:
As for French refusal of Vichy, my chain is triggered by initial Vichy choice firing for France. So basically, it has the same triggers as Vichy, i.e. Germans control of key provinces and 25% of VP. Basically, it goes off a few months after France has effectively fallen. Whether France chooses Vichy, or whether Germans accept it doesn't influence the triggers. They merely see if France is (mostly) beaten.

Heh. Sometimes I surprise myself....

Very cool. I wasn't sure which event you used as a trigger, but the offer of Vichy is good. That way, like you said, it doesn't matter if Vichy gets created or not. One step ahead is always a good thing.

 

[unmerged(18045)]

Yo great pack,keep up the good and when its gonna be integrated into CORE patches?

I am so powerfull in this playing as yuga in this pack that i think germans wont reach Paris.Just didn knew that ill get liberal conservative if i chosen Cvetkovic over Stojadinovic.No more conqering after germany has fallen .
Hmm if i got just get Tito to power somehow i would be able to continueu my plan of great Slavic state with Italy,Manchuria and Argentina as most trusted allies(puppets) .
One time playing CORE i maded to reach Berlin befrore Soviets and puppet Germany.The trick is in albania,mountain units,Mihailovic,Simovic,Nadj and Djujic and the dive bombers(with Mirkovic).

Oh yeah is there any candidate for Logistics wizard in the next pack?
Need it for the trick with keeping all divisions in one army under logisticks wizard till 1940.Really helps your industry.

 

[Dibo]

5. I'll leave Thessaloniki to whoever things they can handle it. Perhaps we can give it to Bulgarians to administer for the Germans, and set up some supply gains for Germany?

Feedback?

Zerli

This is a very good idea. Could it be done?

 

[csantek]

Steel asked me put this here:

Can I help

Indeed I saw many mistakes in French language in the game: ie we don't say "bon chance Emilia" but "Bonne chance Emila". I know French is difficult that is why I would like to help.

Moreover as I told Vulture, the Belgian army is NOT Dutch spoken during the WWII and even now only a 1/3 is Dutch spoken. It is true that half the army had Dutch names but ALL officers were French spoken (even if they were Dutch mother tongue).

And as I told Vulture aigain: the 1è div de Chasseurs Ardennais is NOT called the 1erste Ardense Jaagers div and they are equiped with the best Belgian art brigade as the 1er Art Rgt is the base of all Belgian art brigades. I explain: during peace time nearly half of art servants are trainned in the 1er Art Rgt and during war time, they are dispatched to new created brigades. Only one 1/3 is trainned within the 18th Art Rgt (Ducth spoken), the rest is trainned in other French spoken Rgt...

So I would like to see an art brigade in the 1ère Div de Chasseurs Ardennais in the next version please!

One last point that I explained to Vulture as well, the Dutch spoken divisions flew (not retreated) and desapeared before the first shot due to the lack of morale and secret support to the NASI regime. In the same time all French spoken div fought bravely but could not stand German higher technology. All French spoken that could retreat fought again with the allies before a part could embark to England. The only div that resisted and could stand the German armies was the 1ère div de Chasseurs Ardennais (with the 1er Rgt d'art). Many killings took place in the Ardennes after by the Germans who just wanted to take revenge on civilians.

So is it possible to implement this in the next version as well?

One more event for Belgium: end 30ies, they wanted to modernize their forts (Liège and Namur) so they called for offers. They found that Krupps was the best who could sell them guns. But Krupps has been forbidden to deliver the guns by Hitler. In 1940 the Belgian Army found their guns (paid) in front of them.

 

[MateDow]

Steel asked me put this here:

Can I help

Indeed I saw many mistakes in French language in the game: ie we don't say "bon chance Emilia" but "Bonne chance Emila". I know French is difficult that is why I would like to help.

Feel free. I know that the example above is due to my ignorance of French, and I am sure some of the other problems are due to non-native speakers doing some of the translation. Welcome to the team. MDow

 

[Zerli]

I've made some progress in revising the German war with Yugoslavia and Greece. As I've proposed, the initial partition now only creates Croatia and Serbia, and gives Novi Sad to Hungary. Bulgaria and Italy get nothing at that time. An event fires a few days later, asking Germans if they want to continue on to Greece, default is yes. This leaves Germans with a land route to Greece.

Once Greece is conquered, another partition event pops up, asking Germans if they want to divide the remaining Yugoslav territories (Kosovo, Macedonia, Adriatic coast). Default is yes.

A few months later, Rome Agreements trigger, where Italy gets all of Dalmatia and Croatia as puppet. There are no choices involved. I thought this would simplify things.

I am now going to test these events in a full hands-off game. They seem to work nicely when manually triggered, but you never know...

After this, I am going to create events for the Little Entente and Balkan Entente, and weapon trading events for Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary. If all goes well, the new v9 of (now renamed) Balkan Event Pack should be out in a few days.

Yugoslav partisans and events surrounding them will unfortunately have to wait for a different time. There is also a bunch of flavor events for Croatia that wait for me to have some time...

Stay tuned.

Zerli

 

[MateDow]

I've made some progress in revising the German war with Yugoslavia and Greece. As I've proposed, the initial partition now only creates Croatia and Serbia, and gives Novi Sad to Hungary. Bulgaria and Italy get nothing at that time. An event fires a few days later, asking Germans if they want to continue on to Greece, default is yes. This leaves Germans with a land route to Greece.

Zerli

What happens with the event if Greece is an ally of Germany? I have seen it happen with both AI and players. MDow

 

[unmerged(22108)]

If Thessaloniki province is given to Bulgaria I suggest to lower it's manpower :
- to reflect they didn't control the town itself ( the main reason ingame for the manpower of this province )
- the hostily of the population towards the brutal bulgarian occupation.

 

[Zerli]

Mmmm. MDow, Germany does not get the option to attack Greece if Greece is allied with Axis. Yugoslavia still gets attacked unless it is allied to Axis already. Actually, it is more correct to say that if YUG allies with Germany prior to this event chain firing, it is resolved with another event chain and this one does not happen.

So, Thessaloniki going to Bulgaria, rest going to Italy, reduction of manpower in Thessaloniki, maybe even a reduction of IC, dissent hit (+1?) for Bulgaria?

Anyway, I am still testing things. I am getting really frustrated with the undocumented behavior of the event engine. With some of my events, using "event = xxxxxx" in event trigger works fine, others have to be triggered from previous event using "command = { type = trigger which = xxxxxx }". There is no rhyme or reason for this. It is just that some events do not trigger, period, unless done in that one specific fashion. Frequently event doesn't fire at all, but fires if I add a buffer event in between that fires the last one...

Mmm. I'll see if I can figure the engine's behavior, write up some rules. Or I'll smash my PC with a sledgehammer. Both appear equally likely as of now.

Zerli

 

[Nikolai II]

the Dutch spoken divisions flew (not retreated) and desapeared before the first shot due to the lack of morale and secret support to the NASI regime.

This sounds somewhat exaggarated and like an insult. Do you have any proof of this or is it just bad feelings all around?

 

[Dibo]

So, Thessaloniki going to Bulgaria, rest going to Italy, reduction of manpower in Thessaloniki, maybe even a reduction of IC, dissent hit (+1?) for Bulgaria?
Zerli

Yes, that would be a nice solution IMHO

Edit: Rest going to Germany I presume

 

[Hogar]

So, Thessaloniki going to Bulgaria, rest going to Italy, reduction of manpower in Thessaloniki, maybe even a reduction of IC, dissent hit (+1?) for Bulgaria?Zerli

Crete should go to Germany.

Mmm. I'll see if I can figure the engine's behavior, write up some rules. Or I'll smash my PC with a sledgehammer. Both appear equally likely as of now.
Zerli

:rofl:

 

[unmerged(18045)]

This sounds somewhat exaggarated and like an insult. Do you have any proof of this or is it just bad feelings all around?

Here is what I know :
Holland was atacked and suprised by the atack but fought pretty bravely
when it consolidated its forces.Unfortutnately it consolidated them when
when 60% of teritory was taken(Strip of land with Amsterdam and roterdam left),and the fact that the first germans prisoners in WWII were taken by the Dutch proved this fact.These was just a decoy for allies to amke them enter belgium thinkgin that Germans will atack from the north.

Dont know anything about Dutch speaking forces in Belgium.Beligans
thought that they fortess were impregnable but Germans quickly learned
that they could lower their gliders on the top of belgian forts(they roofs were flat).Than allies entered belgium and left their lines at ardennes undefended.

I think no matter what those dutch speaking forces did matter.I cant belive that if their countrymen in Holland fought so bravely against germans that this guys allied themselves with germans.But I dont know their history that well(the dutch minority in belgium?).I only know how Belgium and Holland got independant in the time of Philip(Spanish Hapsburg ruler)?

I am sorry for posting here but I got interested in this matter.

 

[Zerli]

I am not certain on the issue of Crete. As I understand, it was taken by Germans in an aerial invasion, the first large-scale use of paratroopers in the war.

However, this is already a near certainty with a human player anyway. Crete is on an island, Germany doesn't have much in the way of Mediterranean ports, and by this time Germany is most likely at war with England. Which means any attempt at naval landings is likely to be sunk by the British Mediterranean fleet.

So, basically, the player will recreate an aerial invasion of Crete. As for the AI, in my test of German attack on Greece, Italians actually handled Crete and central Greece. So I see no basis for arbitrarily giving Crete to Germans unless they took it over by themselves. In which case, it is a moot point....

I've resolved the rest of the event chain. After Yugoslavia is destroyed, Serbia and Croatia are created, but Germany keeps a land corridor to Greece. It then gets the choice of attacking or not, with default being war. Once Greece is destroyed, the rest of partition of Yugoslavia fires, Rome Agreements fire for Croatia and Italy. If Germany took Thessaloniki, they get a choice to give it to Bulgarians or to keep it. If they keep it, they get a dissent and influence hit. If they give it over, they get military access to Bulgaria, a small quantity of supplies and manpower (earmarked for occupation troops) and an increase in influence. Bulgarians get a dissent hit and a manpower decrease in Thessaloniki from 5 to 2.

I have a very nice screen capture that illustrates this, but it is 570kb, and it won't fit on my primary website. I might put it on somewhere else later...

I have another problem now. I would like to model the Little Entente and Balkan Entente alliances. I have a nice set of events for them. However, these events are terrible open to exploits by human players. Let me explain:

1. Little Entente is basically an alliance of Yugoslavia, Romania, and Czechoslovakia against Hungarian revisionism. If Hungary attacks any of the three alone, others get an event to help the victim. The problem lies in the fact that the engine can't determine who DoW'ed who. Which means Yugoslavia, Romania, or Czechoslovakia get an easy way to kill Hungary off.

2. Balkan Entente is basically an alliance of Yugoslavia, Greece, Romania, and Turkey, to guard against Bulgarian revisionism. Same as above, same problem. Any of the 4 can use this to basically flatten Bulgaria anytime.

If you guys have any ideas on how to script this, let me know. I want to model the historical alliance, give another check and balance for Balkan warmongers, and avoid an easy exploit for human players.

v9 of my now renamed Balkan Event Pack is coming along nicely. After I deal with Balkan and Little Entente alliances, I will handle the partisans.

Zerli

 

[McNaughton]

I have many sources, and one which has been very useful is an Atlas of WW2.

It shows the division of Yugoslavia and Greece, based upon division between Hungary, Bulgaria, Italy and Germany, plus showing indpendent Croatia.

The division of Greece looks like Italy recieved everything except for Athens, Crete, plus the Greek Agean Islands went to Germany, and Thessaloniki to Bulgaria.

Yet, as to who is best capable of defending Crete, it would undoubtedly be the Italians.

 

[Zerli]

The most important consideration for modeling the division of Greece after conquest is, IMHO, why it was partitioned as it historically was. Partition of Yugoslavia was more or less predetermined by existing territorial claims. Germans pretty much dictated the terms one way or another.

I have no background information on the partition of Greece to suggest the same thing happened. Can someone enlighten me here? It seems to me partition of Greece was more of an ad-hoc thing to resolve the issue quickly, rather then a predetermined partition. Germans didn't seem too interested in Greece in and of itself, more as a possible enemy on the south flank. Italians pretty much got the lion's share anyway.

Basically, except Thessaloniki going to Bulgaria if Germans hold it, I am inclined to let everyone keep what they got during the war. One other thing I might consider is letting Germans hand over mainland Greece to Italy if they hold it.

If anyone here has a good grasp of occupation and division of Greece in WWII, especially in regards to reasoning used and motivations for the occupying forces, please share them here with us.

Zerli