C.O.R.E HOI - Central/Eastern Europe

[unmerged(18738)]

Zerli, I know what you mean about Yugo once being a free-for-all to play in conquering so much and now it's not. I guess the reality is what we are after, not - as CopperNicus put it - the Greater Yugoslavia. C'est la Vie.

I have found that I can knock out Austria, Albania, and once in awhile get Hungary right after that before the Germans will be after me. Almost always can get Austria. Later when the war starts or after Czech is divided I can get Bulgaria. Boy, all that sure puts a crimp in the German war machine!

You can't get all of the Axis minors now, though. That's life. Life In the Balkans, 1940-ish, I guess.

-Phil K

 

[unmerged(14683)]

(...)I guess the reality is what we are after, not - as CopperNicus put it - the Greater Yugoslavia. (...)

When I said that?

 

[unmerged(18738)]

Eh, maybe it was Generalissimo?

 

[JRaup]

I reworked teh Italian DOW on Greece chain, and it's on the Wiki for testing (along with a few other Greek events). Instead of just a straight up DOW by Italy, they now issue an ultimatum to Greece (demanding certain provinces, and adding Italian claims to same), which triggers the Greek response (A choice is Metaxas' "Oxi!" reply). If Italy DOW's Greece, that triggers the UK guarantee, and puts Greece in teh Allies (an issue currently). I'm currently working on teh GErman occupation of Greece, and I'll try to incorporate the historical occupations of it into the events.

 

[Hogar]

I reworked teh Italian DOW on Greece chain, and it's on the Wiki for testing (along with a few other Greek events). Instead of just a straight up DOW by Italy, they now issue an ultimatum to Greece (demanding certain provinces, and adding Italian claims to same), which triggers the Greek response (A choice is Metaxas' "Oxi!" reply). If Italy DOW's Greece, that triggers the UK guarantee, and puts Greece in teh Allies (an issue currently).

OK!

I'm currently working on teh GErman occupation of Greece, and I'll try to incorporate the historical occupations of it into the events.

What are you going to do to make Gemany go that far south to atack Greece without the common border?

 

[JRaup]

OK!

What are you going to do to make Gemany go that far south to atack Greece without the common border?

I'm not sure what can be done honestly. AI tweaking isn't something I do well, so I'll have to leave that to others. My guess is that the passivity levels for Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria will have to set rather high agianst Yugoslavia, and the claims for Macedonia will have to be set aside until later in the game. Probably as part of a greater partitioning of Greece event chain. That way, the claims can be instituted in a more reasonable, and historical fashion. from what I'm gathering, I'll have to leave out the partitioning until later, and just keep the occupation policy events.

 

[unmerged(14683)]

No nitpicking, but event with the UK giving guarantees in 1940 might be too late - in previous versions of CORE (before the current variant of the guarantees) Greece was usually Axis member since the start of the 1940 (PA government speeds this up...).

 

[JRaup]

No nitpicking, but event with the UK giving guarantees in 1940 might be too late - in previous versions of CORE (before the current variant of the guarantees) Greece was usually Axis member since the start of the 1940 (PA government speeds this up...).

In my Greek pack, I have the 36 election crisis, which usually results in Metaxas (as LC), become HoG (there are 2 other options, but neither should put Greece in Axis Sphere). the Uk Guarantee fires as it should, and activates the Greek event for requesting UK aid when Italians DOW. This 90% of the time puts Greece into the Allies as they should be. the Files are on the Wiki, including teh minister file.

 

[Hogar]

Rome Agreement

These few events are ment to deal with the Rome agreements between Italy and Croatia that settled the issue of the borders. Here they are for the inspection and testing...

####################################################
# Rome Agreement!
####################################################
event = {
id = 10000001
random = no
country = CRO
trigger = {###some trigger###}

name = "Rome Agreement!"
desc = "Once created biggest problem Independent State of Croatia (NDH) faced was determining border with Italy, which vision of independent Croatia was similar to Italian Greater Albania. Historically NDH kept independence by giving up Dalmatia and parts of Gorski Kotar. Croatia could not keep the navy, have naval fortifications or have military installations close to Adriatic coast. Italy also gained the military access and Duke of Sapoleto become King of Croatia, Tomislav II."
style = 0

date = { day = 15 month = june year = 1941 }

action_a = {
name = "We have no choice!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000002 }
command = { type = headofstate which = 30001 } # TomislavII
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 569 } #Rijeka
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 743 } #Dalmatia
command = { type = dissent value = 15 } #Italy gets Dalmatia
}
action_b = {
name = "No way!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000003 }
command = { type = manpowerpool value = 20 } # volunteers flock to the cause
command = { type = dissent value = -5 }
}

}

####################################################
# Rome Agreement signed!
####################################################
event = {
id = 10000002
random = no
country = ITA

name = "Rome Agreement!"
desc = "When Independent State of Croatia (NDH) was created Italy was quick to impose very heavy conditions to secure Adriatic for the new Roman Empire. Historically NDH kept independence by giving up Dalmatia and parts of Gorski Kotar. Croatia could not keep the navy, have naval fortifications or have military installations close to Adriatic coast. Italy also gained the military access and Duke of Sapoleto become King of Croatia, Tomislav II."
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Great!"
command = { dissent value = 5 } #Italy gets Dalmatia
command = { type = access which = CRO }
}
}


####################################################
# Rome Agreement refused! (ITA)
####################################################
event = {
id = 10000003
random = no
country = CRO

name = "Rome Agreement refused!"
desc = "When Independent State of Croatia (NDH) was created Italy was quick to offer treaty to secure Adriatic for the new Roman Empire. Securing the Adriatic is of utmost importance to Italy and we should take all the steps to impose these fair conditions. NDH could keep its independence by giving up Dalmatia and parts of Gorski Kotar. Croatia could not keep the navy, have naval fortifications or have military installations close to Adriatic coast. Italy also gained the military access and Duke of Sapoleto become King of Croatia, Tomislav II. Historically Croatia accepted the agreement. We shell... "
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Punish them!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000004 }
command = { type = dissent value = -5 } # Italy keeps it
}

action_b = {
name = "Impose the Treaty!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000005 }
command = { type = dissent value = -3 } # Italy gets what she wants
}
action_c = {
name = "Crush them!"
#command = { type = war which = CRO }
# well, don't give them independence then
command = { type = inherit which = CRO }
# give up german shpere of influence
command = { type = secedeprovince which = GER value = 740 } #Osijek
command = { type = secedeprovince which = GER value = 745 } #Sarajevo
command = { type = secedeprovince which = GER value = 624 } #Zagreb
command = { type = dissent value = 5 } # Croats are unhappy
}
}

####################################################
# Rome Agreement refused! (CRO)
####################################################
event = {
id = 10000004
random = no
country = CRO

name = "Rome Agreement refused - consequences"
desc = "Italy decided to impose the conditions from Rome Treaty and we have no choice but to oblige!"
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Accpet!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000002 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 569 } #Rijeka
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 743 } #Dalmatia
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 744 } #Mostar
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 747 } #Dubrovnik
command = { type = dissent value = 10 }
}
}

event = {
id = 10000005
random = no
country = CRO

name = "Rome Agreement refused - consequences"
desc = "Italy decided to punish Croatia for refusal and we have no choice but to accept the treaty!"
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Accept!"
command = { type = trigger which = 10000002 }
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 569 } #Rijeka
command = { type = secedeprovince which = CRO value = 743 } #Dalmatia
command = { type = dissent value = 5 } #Italy gets Dalmatia
}
}


####################################################

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

These few events are ment to deal with the Rome agreements between Italy and Croatia that settled the issue of the borders. Here they are for the inspection and testing...

I see my events are getting redesigned the wrong way...

1. NDH was in no position to demanded or REFUSE anything.
2. Italy only wanted coastal area and wasn't to much interested in interior.
3. Germany played a role of mediator in hope of satisfying both side.
4. If NDH refused to sign the agreement Italians would simply keep want they grabbed and rump NDH would probably become German satellite.
5. Rijeka province is way to big and should go to NDH since Italians didn't have direct land link to Dalmatia.

 

[Hogar]

I see my events are getting redesigned the wrong way...

Correct, your event was a basis.

1. NDH was in no position to demanded or REFUSE anything.
2. Italy only wanted coastal area and wasn't to much interested in interior.
3. Germany played a role of mediator in hope of satisfying both side.
4. If NDH refused to sign the agreement Italians would simply keep want they grabbed and rump NDH would probably become German satellite.
5. Rijeka province is way to big and should go to NDH since Italians didn't have direct land link to Dalmatia.

1. CORRECT. This is designed simply to allow human player a choice. The outcome seems somewhat likely A) Italy keeps her part of the influential sphere B) Italy enforces the treaty C) Italy gets annoyed and eats Croatia for breakfast.
2. Still demarcation line between GER and ITA went through the Bosnia. I agree they were looking to offload interior to someone, but if CRO proved to be too difficult at the start they would simply keep it... (right?)
3. Ok. I did not know that....
4. Kinda what I did here...
5. OK. Can be done. They had no link but had the most valuable parts of the province, so I tried to weight between these two...

Remember, in your last pack you've given Croatia an option to refuse. Italy then had a 'punish them option' or would DOW Croatia. The only reason I went into redesign of what you've given us was this DOW. I thought this was very unlikely. However, you are the expert and I'll accept any suggestion you have, to make this event historically correct. If that means no choice then I’ll design it that way...
Questions:
1) Should there be a puppeting command and whose puppet CRO should be?
2) Was Croatia indeed a puppet?
3) Should OOB be changed so CRO doesn’t build ships?
4) In HOI, YUG builds fortifications in Dubrovnik province. Should they be dismantled if Croatia gets the province? (Should Dubrovnik have a beach-land in the first place? I think it should be in Mostar province. Neretva valley is there and that's the most likely interior route...)
Thanks...

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

2. Still demarcation line between GER and ITA went through the Bosnia. I agree they were looking to offload interior to someone, but if CRO proved to be too difficult at the start they would simply keep it... (right?)

Its gets even more confusing... demarcation line cut NDH roughly in half, in there zone Italians effectively ruled it as part of Italy until 1942 when after constant partisans annoyance decided it wasn't worth it and simply pulled out there troops and officially returned it to NDH - naturally partisans took control and formed Bihac republic. Also as during 1942 as things got out of control Germans assumed control of Bosnia from demarcation line, so NDH was effectively only in control of Slavonia and central Croatia above demarcation line.

Remember, in your last pack you've given Croatia an option to refuse. Italy then had a 'punish them option' or would DOW Croatia. The only reason I went into redesign of what you've given us was this DOW. I thought this was very unlikely. However, you are the expert and I'll accept any suggestion you have, to make this event historically correct. If that means no choice then I’ll design it that way...

Since them I made a hole mess of redesigning my mod and I forgot what I was trying to do in the first place. :rofl:

1) Should there be a puppeting command and whose puppet CRO should be?

Yes.

Legally Italian, although both Germany and Italy were exploiting natural resources for each demarcation zone, I also added change of masterships to Germany after Italy surrendered.

2) Was Croatia indeed a puppet?

Definitely yes, virtually any bigger decision had to be give approval by Rome and Berlin.

3) Should OOB be changed so CRO doesn’t build ships?

Probably, its a waste anyway.

4) In HOI, YUG builds fortifications in Dubrovnik province. Should they be dismantled if Croatia gets the province? (Should Dubrovnik have a beach-land in the first place? I think it should be in Mostar province. Neretva valley is there and that's the most likely interior route...)
Thanks...

YUG shouldn't build fortification at all, I've made event for only possible fortifications bulit by YUG:

#########################################################################
# Guns for fortifications
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 6500220
random = no
country = YUG

trigger = {
event = 2800 # Vichy France - it doesn't matter if France continues to fight or not.
exists = SLO
}

name = "Guns for fortifications"
desc = "Yugoslavia built fortifications along Italian frontier and later along old Austrian now German border but it lacked heavy artillery pieces to be effective. With Czechoslovakia and France gone, and UK under threat of invasion only neutral place left to buy artillery were United States. Yugoslavia offered its surplus of cement production to USA in exchange for guns but USA refused failing to realize opportunity to ensure neutrality of smaller nations in Europe."
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1940 }

action_a = {
name = "Try anyway!"
command = { type = coalpool value = -500 }
command = { type = steelpool value = -500 }
command = { type = trigger which = 7200100 }
}
action_b = {
name = "I can build guns myself!"
command = { }
}
}


#########################################################################
# Guns for fortifications
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 7200100
random = no
country = USA

Triggered by YUG

name = "Guns for fortifications"
desc = "Yugoslavia built fortifactions along Italian frontier and later along old Austiran now German border but it lacked heavy artillery pieces to be effective. With Cezchoslovakia and France gone, and UK under threat of invasion only neutral place left to buy artillery are we. Yugoslavia offered its surplus of cement production to us in excahnge for guns, this is great oportunity to ensure neutrality of Yugoslavia but we would weaken our armed forces."
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "We need guns for our troops!"
command = { type = trigger which = 6500221 }
}
action_b = {
name = "Sell them anyway!"
command = { type = supplies value = -1000 }
command = { type = coalpool value = 500 }
command = { type = steelpool value = 500 }
command = { type = trigger which = 6500222 }
}
}

#########################################################################
# USA refused!
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 6500221
random = no
country = YUG

name = "USA refused!"
desc = "As we expected USA has refused our offer and we ca"
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Try anyway!"
command = { type = coalpool value = 500 }
command = { type = steelpool value = 500 }
command = { type = alignment which = democratic value = -30 }
}
}


#########################################################################
# USA agrees!
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 6500222
random = no
country = YUG

name = "USA agrees!"
desc = "We have received guns for our fortifications, we can now stand up to fascist aggressors!"
style = 0

action_a = {
name = "Great!"
command = { type = land_fort which = 569 value = 4 }
command = { type = land_fort which = 570 value = 4 }
command = { type = alignment which = democratic value = 10 }
}
}

 

[unmerged(18045)]

Will you consider doing next pack compatible with Super AI for CORE?
Its not much of a job but would be nice to be included.

Didnt play the pack 8 till april war,but just wanted to ask one thing?
Will I when I put most of my troops with German(Ljubljana),Italian(rijeka) and Hungarian(Zagerb,Osijek,Beograd,Novi Sad) most of them vanish because of the Croatina rebel(I mean join the NDH)?That would seem to be a little unrealtic if I had 40 divisons on their border to have 20 to swith sides.Cause as I know croats evaded draft,but there were soldiers and oficers(with their units) to join with the rebel.Dont know how many.

Or maybe I didnt read those events right.

 

[Zerli]

JRaup, I've outlined an basic solution to Greek war problem higher up in the thread. Have a look at it and tell me what you think. Basically, I will delay the partition of Yugoslavia by a few months to give Germans time to crush Greece while they have a common border with them. Your idea of giving Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria passivity against Yugoslavia is good also.

As for Italian DoW on Greece chain, I will leave that in your hands. Currently my events do not depend on it, so there will be no problem. Try to incorporate sinking of the ship "Elli", as well as Greek partial demobilization right after DoW to please the Italians. The partition of Greece after the defeat should include Thessaloniki going to Germany. The idea here is to have Italy DoW Greece before or right about time Vichy event hits, because my Yugoslav event chain checks for that. If we do this, we can replicate the historical situation nicely - Italy tries to take Greece, emboldened by German success in France, Italy fails, Germans want secure southern flank, Yugoslavia is in the way, Yugoslavia gets crushed, Greece gets crushed, operation Barbarossa proceeds as planned...

Hogar, the Rome Agreement events look good. I'll clean up the spelling and test them. The only thing that might be good to think about is possible German reaction to Italian DoW against Croatia. Germany historically wanted an independent or semi-independent Croatia, because of ideological reasons (some Croatians were rabid national socialists, so rabid to make some Germans blanch), and to maintain the balance of power in the Balkans. As things stand in my event pack, when Germans give Croatia independence, Croatia also automatically joins the Axis. So, if Italy DoWs them, without being in Axis first, it will end up fighting Germany in 1940 or so, which is a death sentence for Italy. We might want to edit the war option for Italy to avoid this. Alternatively, if both Italy and Croatia are in axis, the DoW command fails and the event fizzles likes a wet firecracker...

Maybe it would be best to simply discard the war option, adding something about possible German intervention to Italian event text? I believe war was not a realistic option anyway.

Zerli

 

[Hogar]

Will you consider doing next pack compatible with Super AI for CORE?
Its not much of a job but would be nice to be included.

Didnt play the pack 8 till april war,but just wanted to ask one thing?
Will I when I put most of my troops with German(Ljubljana),Italian(rijeka) and Hungarian(Zagerb,Osijek,Beograd,Novi Sad) most of them vanish because of the Croatina rebel(I mean join the NDH)?That would seem to be a little unrealtic if I had 40 divisons on their border to have 20 to swith sides.Cause as I know croats evaded draft,but there were soldiers and oficers(with their units) to join with the rebel.Dont know how many.

Or maybe I didnt read those events right.

Croatia/Serbia are created when Yugoslavia is beaten. Scenario above should not happen.

 

[Hogar]

Hogar, the Rome Agreement events look good. I'll clean up the spelling and test them. The only thing that might be good to think about is possible German reaction to Italian DoW against Croatia. Germany historically wanted an independent or semi-independent Croatia, because of ideological reasons (some Croatians were rabid national socialists, so rabid to make some Germans blanch), and to maintain the balance of power in the Balkans. As things stand in my event pack, when Germans give Croatia independence, Croatia also automatically joins the Axis. So, if Italy DoWs them, without being in Axis first, it will end up fighting Germany in 1940 or so, which is a death sentence for Italy. We might want to edit the war option for Italy to avoid this. Alternatively, if both Italy and Croatia are in axis, the DoW command fails and the event fizzles likes a wet firecracker...
Maybe it would be best to simply discard the war option, adding something about possible German intervention to Italian event text? I believe war was not a realistic option anyway.

I don't have DOW in my version of the events. ITA has three options
a) Take all within Italian demarcation zone b) enforce historical treaty or c) annex Croatia. (I should change command from inherit to annex).
Ivan had few objections and I want to see if there is something we can do that would make him happy. This probably means adding puppeting command in all events and possible different province division.
Alternately you can take in the current form, fix what can be fixed and consider changing it later. Better have something then nothing.
Cheers...

 

[JRaup]

JRaup, I've outlined an basic solution to Greek war problem higher up in the thread. Have a look at it and tell me what you think. Basically, I will delay the partition of Yugoslavia by a few months to give Germans time to crush Greece while they have a common border with them. Your idea of giving Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria passivity against Yugoslavia is good also.

As for Italian DoW on Greece chain, I will leave that in your hands. Currently my events do not depend on it, so there will be no problem. Try to incorporate sinking of the ship "Elli", as well as Greek partial demobilization right after DoW to please the Italians. The partition of Greece after the defeat should include Thessaloniki going to Germany. The idea here is to have Italy DoW Greece before or right about time Vichy event hits, because my Yugoslav event chain checks for that. If we do this, we can replicate the historical situation nicely - Italy tries to take Greece, emboldened by German success in France, Italy fails, Germans want secure southern flank, Yugoslavia is in the way, Yugoslavia gets crushed, Greece gets crushed, operation Barbarossa proceeds as planned...

A separate event for the Elli is probably unnecessary, but I will include it in the text somwhere. But a demobilization will be tricky, and I'm not sure it will be all that worth while either. even so, I'll take a look at some possibilities, and make a few test runs.

As for Yugoslavia, I think delaying the partioning may be problematic, if you don't include some high passivity for the potential Axis members to the East (Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria). Otherwise you run the risk of one of them annexing Yugoslavia before the Germans have made any significant advances. Removing the initial Bulgarian claim on Macedonia wil also help, and can be added in by event later on. There needs to be a "wholistic" approach to trouble shooting events to get the historical feel right.

Lastly, what happens if either Germany or France rejects the Vichy option? Will that effectively kill your chain of events? Or is there some back up triggerjust in case? I'd suggest just using triggers checking for German control of certain provinces, and/or just checking to see if France doesn't have control of those provinces. Other wise, you end up having a great event chain, that dies before it can fire, even if it should.

 

[Zerli]

Ivan, I am glad you are lurking around. Since I am not very well informed on Rome Agreements, could you post a summary of historical version, so that we may continue this informed discussion?

JRaup, demobilization can fairly easily be simulated with a manpower hit. It is not an ideal solution, but works out nicely, because it limits reinforcements to frontline troops.

Actually, delaying the partition is no problem at all! I've had the problem of division in mind when I designed the partition events, and here is what happens:

1. Yugoslavia is attacked, and loses control of Beograd and Sarajevo. It doesn't matter who takes the provinces.
2. Germany automatically gets all Yugoslav provinces for itself in a separate event.
3. Partition triggers when and if we want it to.

So even if Bulgarians, Hungarians, Romanians, and anyone else take land, they don't get to keep it, at least not right away. And this fires regardless of who takes which province.

At that point, Germany has a guaranteed land route to Greece, so I can simply delay the actual partition till Greece is conquered.

As for French refusal of Vichy, my chain is triggered by initial Vichy choice firing for France. So basically, it has the same triggers as Vichy, i.e. Germans control of key provinces and 25% of VP. Basically, it goes off a few months after France has effectively fallen. Whether France chooses Vichy, or whether Germans accept it doesn't influence the triggers. They merely see if France is (mostly) beaten.

Heh. Sometimes I surprise myself....

 

[Dibo]

JRaup, I've outlined an basic solution to Greek war problem higher up in the thread. Have a look at it and tell me what you think. Basically, I will delay the partition of Yugoslavia by a few months to give Germans time to crush Greece while they have a common border with them. Your idea of giving Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria passivity against Yugoslavia is good also.

I agree the Yugolslav solution by delaying is good and actually close to what happened historically.

The partition of Greece after the defeat should include Thessaloniki going to Germany. ...
Zerli

Why

 

[Ivan Bajlo]

Hogar, the Rome Agreement events look good. I'll clean up the spelling and test them. The only thing that might be good to think about is possible German reaction to Italian DoW against Croatia. Germany historically wanted an independent or semi-independent Croatia, because of ideological reasons (some Croatians were rabid national socialists, so rabid to make some Germans blanch), and to maintain the balance of power in the Balkans.

Uh no, Germans really couldn't care less what happens to Croatia as long as there is no problems... first idea was to create independent Croatia ruled by Vladko Macek who as Yugoslav vice-president and no.1 politician in Croatia had most influence but he refused to deal with nazis, then they offered the territory to Mussolini but he said no since he didn't want more Slavs in his empire then to Hungarians who also didn't want area with Slavs, then they again begged Macek and he refused again, so at the end some noname group appeared and grabbed the power and it turned out Germans were right that only with Macek in charge there probably wouldn't be to many problems.

So Macek is most to blame for mess that later happened.